A cautionary tale

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by OrinocoFlo

Notice how loose the chest strap is on the lefthand man and that it is properly fitted on the righthand man. That is just the sort of adolescent staging that can discredit a valid point. Why did they purposely and obviously do that? For all I know, they sabotaged the left hand PFD. I have no reason to believe they did not, and prima fascia evidence suggests they did. I believe they may have.

I agree, but the games are really annoying.

And let's not forget that non-inflatable PFDs work differently; my white water PFDs don't have straps and don't need them.

[Snowpetrel]

https://youtu.be/Oqs9dR2kHwk

More on crotch straps and inflatables. Though I don't have much faith in the average crotch strap to safely lift a heavy wet person.

My favorite solution to the whole tether clip failing on the deck it to do away with it. Just make a soft eye in one end of the tether that runs directly along the jackstay. No banging on deck, no chipped paint. Have two tethers per side and don't take them off the jackstays. They only get clipped on at the harness end and the clip ends hang near (or inside) the companionway.

https://youtu.be/VPmNo-jo4tg here is a successful MOB recovery. Good work on their part. I wonder what sort of crotch straps and lifejackets they have?

[Seabeau]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Read the Fastnet '79 report! A bunch of sailors died from slipping out of their legstrap-less harnesses. That was almost 40 years ago!

Harnesses? How many of the Fastnet fleet capsized? Why wasn't the real problem of the inherent dangers of fixed keeled sailboats in breaking seas addressed? The much touted ability of going to windward pales in comparison to overall boat survivability and human safety.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by boatman61

What you seem to forget is your on a 54ft boat with 2 to 3 other crew and you own it and know it well.. maybe you can cover 1500nm in 8 to 9 days..
Try that in a 30ftr where you will be averaging 100nm a day.. so thats at least 15 days.. if you have perfect conditions.. if not you play safe and don't stress the boat that you've known for a week or less.. throw in a 3 day gale or 5 days of calms and your up to 18 to 20 days.
I do the SXM to Azores crossing mainly.. 17 days in a 62ftr.. but could have been less but for unusual E'lies but usually its between 20 to 25 days..
If life were that simple so many boats would not go down doing this crossing.. including 70ftrs with 7 man crews.

Fair enough

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Seabeau

Harnesses? How many of the Fastnet fleet capsized? Why wasn't the real problem of the inherent dangers of fixed keeled sailboats in breaking seas addressed? The much touted ability of going to windward pales in comparison to overall boat survivability and human safety.

Well, sure, I agree completely, but that's not what we were talking about.

There were multiple cases in the '79 Fastnet where sailors got washed overboard or thrown off when a boat was rolled, who would have been saved, had they not slipped out of their harnesses. Some of the stories were just like the on described in the OP -- heartbreaking. It has nothing to do with boat design, and it was supposed to be one of the main lessons the sailing community learned from the disaster.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by thinwater

Notice how loose the chest strap is on the lefthand man and that it is properly fitted on the righthand man. That is just the sort of adolescent staging that can discredit a valid point. Why did they purposely and obviously do that? For all I know, they sabotaged the left hand PFD. I have no reason to believe they did not, and prima fascia evidence suggests they did. I believe they may have.

I agree, but the games are really annoying.

And let's not forget that non-inflatable PFDs work differently; my white water PFDs don't have straps and don't need them.

Maybe so, but the point is still totally valid, and the video, manipulated or not, shows vividly the tendency to fall through the harness if there is nothing holding you at the bottom.

But I'm not even sure that the video is manipulated. The strapless jacket which the guy fell through, is fitted the way nearly 100% of everyday cruisers fit their lifejackets. Have you ever seen a cruiser cinch down his lifejacket tight? Or even a racer? Especially over weather gear">foul weather gear? I'm not sure I ever have -- it's hellishly uncomfortable. I sure don't cinch my straps down tight over my bibbs, fleece onesey mid-layer, and heavy foul weather jacket, and guess what -- I don't have to, because I have a beefy padded crotch strap. The video shows the lifejacket being worn the way I wear mine, and the way they are typically if not universally worn in real everyday cruising usage.

If everyone could visualize this, then no one would ever have strapless life jackets on board, just like no one would hang off the side of a cliff in a climbing harness with no leg straps. The very existence of such lifejackets is just a massive failure of imagination on the part of those who buy them.

To whoever said "some flotation is better than no flotation" -- I would say -- so is that the choice? Either "some" flotation, or none at all? According to that logic, it's ok to go overboard with a couch pillow in your hand. But that is not the choice. No one has to buy those inherently dangerous and fundamentally stupid strapless life jackets -- you can buy proper ones anywhere. You can even add straps to an existing strapless ones! There is really no excuse to have such a thing on board, which is all the more dangerous because it gives a false sense of security.

[poiu]

Crotch straps are necessary in my view. All my life jackets had them retrofitted. That said, the issue is really a distraction and may not have saved her. She was already in a bad way before she slipped out. The poor woman shouldn’t have fallen overboard in the first place. People have died many times like this even with crotch straps. It should be 100% preventable, nay prohibited to fall in or to be washed overboard. Why expose yourself to a high risk of death if the dice rolls badly for you and you fall in? It’s russian roulette. That’s not a clever game.

Then again, if you are to take a risk and go forward without a totally secure harness then at least carry knives to cut yourself or others free and and have an AIS beacon to ensure you find the casualty. If you are to fall in in really cold water you have to wear a survival suit or similar. Survival can be a question of minutes otherwise. In the scheme of things compared to the overall cost of boating and the value of life all these measures are a just sensible and a good investment too.

[boatman61]

My impression from the article is that they were both in the cockpit at the time..
The owner claims he was 'thrown across the cockpit'..
This means she either went over the top or.. under the lifelines.. from what is said I get the impression she must have gone under as if over he would not have been able to use the winch.. also.. to get the line onto the winch he would have had to release the tether.. ???

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

...The strapless jacket which the guy fell through, is fitted the way nearly 100% of everyday cruisers fit their lifejackets. Have you ever seen a cruiser cinch down his lifejacket tight? ....

I agree and made the same point earlier.

But that does NOT forgive a false comparison. They should have been fitted equally, or in take-2, both fallen in without crotch straps, buth with one fitted properly. That would have been interesting. As it is, the video is inadmissible as proof of anything, because it HAS been manipulated. I can't tell how loose it was, but I think lots. And that is sad, because they could have told the tale honestly.

But would those sailors wear a crotch strap? No. Would they clip in? Probably not. Is it the skipper's job to check fit? Yes, when climbing you look at your partner's harness.

[Snore]

Originally Posted by OrinocoFlo

Best video EVER. I teach about straps in my ASA classes. Now I have a video to back it up.

FWIW, properly fitted the straps are “outboard” of the groin area. So for non-porn stars the facilities should be well clear of the contact area.

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by Snore

Best video EVER. I teach about straps in my ASA classes. Now I have a video to back it up....

But it is a lie! It shows what we want, but it cheats to paint the picture.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with the straps. I'm pushing for better standards through articles and World Sailing.

But what is wrong with this no-strap video (skip to 1:55)? Nothing. There are many more that show PFDs staying in place.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRB4lu2Zcaw

We are more credible when we tell the truth. If the point is that people don't wear them properly, tell that story. If the problem is that in rough conditions they ride up, film at the beach. But tell the truth.

[Snore]

Originally Posted by thinwater

But it is a lie! It shows what we want, but it cheats to paint the picture.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with the straps. I'm pushing for better standards through articles and World Sailing.
... ....

We are more credible when we tell the truth. If the point is that people don't wear them properly, tell that story. If the problem is that in rough conditions they ride up, film at the beach. But tell the truth.

It does NOT lie!

Ok I am one of the few folks who has had to use a PFD in an emergency. As a kayaker I got rolled and could not pop up. The sea state was such that I lost my float and could not re-enter. Yes I know most intelligent kayakers would not have been out. A 1-1.5 mile swim to shore is good for you

From my experience it is the arm hole and size of the head opening that keeps the victim’s head above water. This is assisted by cinching the size straps of a kayak PFD so that the lower straps engage around the lower ribs. Inflatables try to do this through the waist strap. These straps work if the victim has a waistline less than their chest. Unfortunately, many folks have more of a pear-shape body than an hour-glass. As such the only thing keeping the PFD from popping above the head is the head opening and (if equipped) leg straps.

The person who did the demo had certain advantages over most #1, he had the waist strap super tight (look at the skin around his waist)- that is not a realistic way to wear a PFD on deck when on watch for 3-4 hours; #2 he was in decent shape; #3 if he had on some foul weather gear and the belt would not engage the ribs- and it pops over his head.

Doubts? Read the reports on offshore and Great Lakes races that had fatalities.

All that said, feel free to PM or email me. Anything I can do to develop more analytical versus anecdotal data would be great.

If you have other videos, please share them.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Snore

It does NOT lie!

. ..

I agree completely. The guy on the left is wearing the strapless jacket in the typical way. It is possible that if you wear such a thing and cinch it down really tight, perhaps it will stay on. But so what? No one does that, and it's not even possible wearing a lot of foul weather gear. The demonstration in an accurate and true manner shows the typical result.

The guy on the right has his vest cinched down somewhat tighter. So what? If it had been loose, he would still have been held by his crotch straps.

So this is a big irrelevancy. Someone has gotten carried away with professional pride in testing methods, and perhaps rivalry.

[Suijin]

Originally Posted by Snowpetrel

https://youtu.be/Oqs9dR2kHwk
https://youtu.be/VPmNo-jo4tg here is a successful MOB recovery. Good work on their part. I wonder what sort of crotch straps and lifejackets they have?

This video illustrates two things, based on this part of the description:

"He went over the side at 23.43 UTC last night in rough weather and was sighted again at 00.55 UTC before being recovered."


So he was in the water for over an hour before he was sighted again. One of the biggest challenges is stopping the boat, turning around, and getting back to where you know or think the MOB occurred. Related to that, sighting them in a seaway is extremely difficult. They are only visible about 1/3 of the time at best (when at or near the wave crest), and you need to be looking pretty much right at them to catch sight of them at that point. If it's night time...forget about it. No AIS beacon, the chances of finding someone are extremely small.

So while this was a successful MOB recovery, it's the result of a successful miracle. While he likely had an AIS beacon, and the boat had a full crew, they were racing and moving fast; undoubtedly rousing the crew and stopping and turning the boat took lots of crucial minutes. I know some big racing boats where they figure 2 hours for a recovery, if they know where the person went over the side.

I too tell people on my boat when offshore that if they fall over the side they are basically dead. The point of telling them that is to impress on them how dangerous it is and prompt them to exercise all due caution. It's not to tell them that I won't turn around and try and recover them, lol.

[Snowpetrel]

Originally Posted by Suijin

This video illustrates two things, based on this part of the description:

"He went over the side at 23.43 UTC last night in rough weather and was sighted again at 00.55 UTC before being recovered."


So he was in the water for over an hour before he was sighted again. One of the biggest challenges is stopping the boat, turning around, and getting back to where you know or think the MOB occurred. Related to that, sighting them in a seaway is extremely difficult. They are only visible about 1/3 of the time at best (when at or near the wave crest), and you need to be looking pretty much right at them to catch sight of them at that point. If it's night time...forget about it. No AIS beacon, the chances of finding someone are extremely small.

So while this was a successful MOB recovery, it's the result of a successful miracle. While he likely had an AIS beacon, and the boat had a full crew, they were racing and moving fast; undoubtedly rousing the crew and stopping and turning the boat took lots of crucial minutes. I know some big racing boats where they figure 2 hours for a recovery, if they know where the person went over the side.

I too tell people on my boat when offshore that if they fall over the side they are basically dead. The point of telling them that is to impress on them how dangerous it is and prompt them to exercise all due caution. It's not to tell them that I won't turn around and try and recover them, lol.

Yep, exactly. It was a very lucky (and nicely done) rescue with a well trained crew and fully maned boat, and it happened during the day.

On the last clipper race unfortunately they had another MOB and lost her, so even on these boats it is a 50/50 mob recovery rate.

The risk is always there, but is it any worse than other sports? Or even just driving a car..