Composting toilets or wet sewage systems

[SAILOR911]

Has anyone used worms in a composting toilet ? Also what cycle time have you had for this method?

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Yes … and if you extend that search just a whee bit you’ll find that while urine is not 100% sterile (nothing is), it is far more so than just about any other part of the body.

NOTHING is 100% sterile, including the brain. But urine is many factors more sterile than say your skin or mouth. So you better not go swimming.

I notice you skipped over the nutrient comment. The urea/ammonia content exceeds discharge standards by about 1000 times and is about 1,000,000 times the acceptable level for many saltwater fish. You can Google that. (I used to design sewage treatment plants.)

Just sayin' from a rhetorical standpoint, not caring.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by thinwater

I notice you skipped over the nutrient comment. The urea/ammonia content exceeds discharge standards by about 1000 times and is about 1,000,000 times the acceptable level for many saltwater fish. You can Google that. (I used to design sewage treatment plants.)

Just sayin' from a rhetorical standpoint, not caring.

I assume your numbers are true for concentrated urine (I haven’t ‘Googled’). It becomes pretty un-concentrated once it hits the water. As you know: The solution to pollution is dilution .

I’m not suggesting for one second there isn’t an environmental impact to dumping urine overboard. From a bacterial load perspective (sterility), urine is inconsequential, but it could certainly have a nutrient impacts, especially if combined with existing loads.

Everything we do comes at a cost to the environment. But to be clear, and in the context of this discussion, I’ve never suggested that a composting head is necessarily more environmentally benign than others. It all depends on how the end products are dealt with. Being “green” is not one of the reasons I went for a composter (a term I wish they had not used).

[peghall]

Originally Posted by SAILOR911

Has anyone used worms in a composting toilet ? Also what cycle time have you had for this method?

There is--or used to be--a Type II MSD that used maggots ("clean" ones, available in packets from companies who grow them)...you knew it was time for a new batch when flies started coming out of the toilet!

[senormechanico]

That's about as big a "Eewwwww!" notice that it's time to change your litterbox as I can imagine !

Just wow.

[Rorzech]

I've used a composting toilet for 16 years now at home and I have one for my boat (not installed yet) Never any smell and empty 3/4 of the contents annually. The secret to them is easy. Just keep the right moisture content and the bacteria will stay happily converting your poop into what appears to be potting soil. You know you have the right moisture content when you see a light sheen on the surface of the compost. Mixing is a very good thing because it provides oxygen for the bacteria. You have a mini ecosystem that you need to learn how to manage and it will take care of you waste like magic. I use a five gallon pickle barrel ( a 1 year supply )to mix my composting food in. I mix double cut shredded paper which I keep in a bag and years ago I bought a 3cu/ft brick of compressed peat moss 50/50, and use a 1 cup scoop on a stick to apply the dry mix into the poop. Every turd i fire into the toilet is followed by a spray shot of "Compost Quick" before I cover it with the dry mixed Confetti/Peat moss. Every two weeks I sprinkle a half tsp of "Microbe Mix"tiny pellets.Once a week I add roughly 3 litres of warm water to beef up the moisture and give it a thorough mixing to keep all the bacteria healthy and happy.I don't flood it with urine. The only urine that it gets is when I'm pinching of a loaf and depositing toilet paper is ok, but use it sparingly. It doesn't take much time out of your life to compost properly. It's just something you decide to get involved in and learn to do it right . The sooner you get the hang of it the happier you'll be. It's like a sour doh , you need the bacteria so never completely empty it. Have fun.

[drummer81]

@ Rorzech, thanks for the post. But my short reseach (this evening) and my experience on the cottage composting toilet is that it would be better to keep the solids relativly dry. Or am I totally of the radar so to speak?

It feels to me that in a boat a ventilated system would be better. One could get the moisture out?

And about flies. If You have a closed system and You are not farming flies in Your boat, there should be no problem. Or what do the people with more experience think?

Thanks!

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

I assume your numbers are true for concentrated urine (I haven’t ‘Googled’). It becomes pretty un-concentrated once it hits the water. As you know: The solution to pollution is dilution .

I’m not suggesting for one second there isn’t an environmental impact to dumping urine overboard. From a bacterial load perspective (sterility), urine is inconsequential, but it could certainly have a nutrient impacts, especially if combined with existing loads.

Everything we do comes at a cost to the environment. But to be clear, and in the context of this discussion, I’ve never suggested that a composting head is necessarily more environmentally benign than others. It all depends on how the end products are dealt with. Being “green” is not one of the reasons I went for a composter (a term I wish they had not used).

I'm just playin' with you. I've peed off many boats.

I believe "wet" systems can be very good and that it is a matter of proper engineering and understanding. I had one for many years and it operated very, very well once I got to know it. As good as home and I feel the best answer for that boat, for our sailing area (big tank and a free pump-out station on the way to the channel). I also believe some of the problems people have with composting systems are lack of understanding.

I follow threads like this because I'm still seeking the best solution for my new, smaller boat. If it were only me, practically anything would work. But I also have to consider the sensibilities of others, and that can be a funny dance. In my case, this boat is a partnership (3), and I can't very well tell my partner's wife what to think. See the problem?

[Maka]

Originally Posted by senormechanico

I know this is probably thread hijacking, but nobody has mentioned the third possibility which is a Coast Guard Approved MSD.

http://raritaneng.com/raritan-produc...nt/electroscan

I'd never go back to a holding tank system or install a kitty litter box for people, especially on a small boat.

Push the button and done. Legally in 99+% of the PNW.
No, I don't do lake sailing.

I have one of these. Love it. No pumping, no dumping. Ever.
Threads like this make me so grateful that I don't have to deal with the crap so many sailors do.
~ pun intended ~

[normanm]

Originally Posted by Minggat

This last week I read an article in Practical Sailor regarding the pros and cons of composting toilets. The author got things so wrong I thought, that I wrote to PS and told them that I thought their readers deserved better. But I have since learned that there are some composting toilets that really do have drawbacks that I am glad I don't have to tolerate.

I don't want to name names, but I will say that the two best known names have better advertising. And it appears that their units are a lot more prone to the above mentioned negatives.

The PS article said that (all) composting toilets REQUIRE a deck vent, hoses and a powered fan. Since I have had my unit for 3+ years with no deck fitting, hoses or a fan, I had to question why the author would say that. It turns out that he was talking about the better advertised units, apparently never having heard of any other alternative.

I do not want to sound like a salesman for the unit I decided on, while trying to point out that the cons that the author covered, simply were not true of all composting toilets.

At this point, I get to name a name. I believe that C Head gets it right.

Be advised that I chose the subject line for this thread intentionally to make one of the two choices look better than the other. What is there about wet sewage issues that sounds better than sawdust issues?

Over and over again, I read here on the forum about people with questions about their wet sewage systems. And over and over again, I think about how I am so glad not to deal with those issues, to the point of wondering why anyone would tolerate a wet sewage system at all. But I have also read and heard reports of negatives with some user choices of composting toilets. It came to me again, that what one couple described as "not a perfect system", makes mine look like a perfect system.

Before I made my choice, I met 2 different boats had been so disappointed with their composting toilets, that they reverted to wet systems. But I persisted in my homework, and am really really.... really happy with the choice that eventually made.

It might be a good time to mention that composting toilets only start the composting process. The end product is not compost, but rather desiccated waste. So getting any moisture in the drying compartment is a BIG NO NO. If that moisture happens to be urine, things only go downhill fast, and the REQUIRED vent and fan come into play.

But it gets a lot more serious. It seems that some designs are prone to emitting effluvia due to the PROBABILITY of some of the wet getting into the dry.

The movement of air in a composting toilet should primarily be an aid in the desiccating process, and secondly to help make the solids bin unattractive to gnats. Please note that odor control is not an issue with all systems. But there are toilets that have the potential for urine to find it’s way into the solids bin. Hence, “not a perfect system”. It is said that composting toilets are not well suited to the tropics due to the humidity. I am in the tropics. No vents, no hoses, no fans and no odor.

With the C Head, getting urine in the solids bin has to be intentional.

A well designed toilet is going to resemble something much closer to what bears do in the woods. Some people are willing to tolerate what I would not, because of their fear of odors. Simple is better. My point is, it seems that the better advertisers work hard to appear to address the "ieuuuu" factor for anyone considering their product. In the end, (and in my opinion) what you have is closer to a contraption that cost more, takes more space, is harder to install and empty, and is "not a perfect system” (urine where it shouldn’t be).

For any of you who walk your dog, picking up after them with your hand in a plastic bag, and still concern yourself with the ieuuuu factor of composting toilets over wet sewage systems,... well... I tried.

A couple of points that I also want to mention in this potty RE-training here are splatter from men relieving themselves while standing, and the use of rolls of TP.

When we go into the mens room, with it’s dedicated fixtures, we find something that accommodates men while minimizing splatter. It’s called a urinal. Not sure why that is important in places where we share this space in public places with other men, but not important where we share this space with those that sit to relieve themselves, and sometimes have deal with said male splatter before sitting. In a constantly shifting space, (boat) it makes even less sense to try to hit the tiny bulls eye. And the convenience of men relieving themselves over the rail, too often leads to floating bodies with their fly open. Some pay attention to this detail, and some do not. I do not tolerate this unsafe practice. I happen to be one who saves the empty liquid laundry detergent and fabric softener bottles. Each male crew gets his own. The spouts often pop right out, or are easily cut out. What you are left with is a sturdy urinal with a handle, a wide mouth opening, and a really great sealing cap. This is usable in rough water and calm, with less splatter than you can achieve with the permanent fixtures ashore.

Rolls of TP are very consumable. A very good idea for those that want us to believe we must use that product. Not so good for those who fall for it. And on a boat, it becomes an issue of storage. I noticed that consumption was about a roll a week just for myself, when my wife was not aboard. I calculated that there was more usable TP in a box of facial tissue than on a roll. I went from 1 roll a week, to one box lasting 4 MONTHS. In one trip to Costco, I acquired what looks like 3 years worth of TP. If you only get one month out of a box of tissue, you still win.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by thinwater

I'm just playin' with you. I've peed off many boats.

Always fun talking about how we deal with our poop .

I’m just here to try and respond honestly to real questions, and perhaps learn new tricks from fellow compost users. Sadly, I often find it necessary to counter misinformation given by a few people.

Originally Posted by thinwater

I believe "wet" systems can be very good and that it is a matter of proper engineering and understanding. I had one for many years and it operated very, very well once I got to know it. As good as home and I feel the best answer for that boat, for our sailing area (big tank and a free pump-out station on the way to the channel). I also believe some of the problems people have with composting systems are lack of understanding.

I completely agree — there’s nothing wrong with a standard marine head. I’ve spent most of my boating life with them, and didn’t go to a composter b/c I was dissatisfied. I chose a composter b/c it is a better system for me (and she), and the way we cruise. But others will have different considerations and different needs. That’s just peachy .

Originally Posted by thinwater

I follow threads like this because I'm still seeking the best solution for my new, smaller boat. If it were only me, practically anything would work. But I also have to consider the sensibilities of others, and that can be a funny dance. In my case, this boat is a partnership (3), and I can't very well tell my partner's wife what to think. See the problem?

Can’t help you dance . But I’m more than happy to share my experience with my NH; the good, the bad and the ugly. I’ve written many times about both the positives and the negatives of these heads. They’re definitely not for everyone, or every boat.

Originally Posted by drummer81

@ Rorzech, thanks for the post. But my short reseach (this evening) and my experience on the cottage composting toilet is that it would be better to keep the solids relativly dry. Or am I totally of the radar so to speak?

It feels to me that in a boat a ventilated system would be better. One could get the moisture out?

The key is finding the right balance. These heads need some moisture, but not very much. I lean to the drier side since mine is in constant use when we’re on board. But you can definitely be too dry.

I think ventilation is essential for the proper operating of the NH and AH. The CH’s lack of ventilation, and smaller holding tank, is why it needs to be emptied more often.

Originally Posted by drummer81

And about flies. If You have a closed system and You are not farming flies in Your boat, there should be no problem. Or what do the people with more experience think?

Flies can be a problem. I’ve had small infestations when I’ve misjudged on the moisture, or when my screen broke. When things are operating properly there should be no flies.

I’ve also heard from others that peat can be a source of bugs. I only use coir (compressed coconut husk), which does not seem to have the same problems. Maybe peat users can comment...

[normanm]

Originally Posted by Minggat

This last week I read an article in Practical Sailor regarding the pros and cons of composting toilets. The author got things so wrong I thought, that I wrote to PS and told them that I thought their readers deserved better. But I have since learned that there are some composting toilets that really do have drawbacks that I am glad I don't have to tolerate.

I don't want to name names, but I will say that the two best known names have better advertising. And it appears that their units are a lot more prone to the above mentioned negatives.

The PS article said that (all) composting toilets REQUIRE a deck vent, hoses and a powered fan. Since I have had my unit for 3+ years with no deck fitting, hoses or a fan, I had to question why the author would say that. It turns out that he was talking about the better advertised units, apparently never having heard of any other alternative.

I do not want to sound like a salesman for the unit I decided on, while trying to point out that the cons that the author covered, simply were not true of all composting toilets.

At this point, I get to name a name. I believe that C Head gets it right.

Be advised that I chose the subject line for this thread intentionally to make one of the two choices look better than the other. What is there about wet sewage issues that sounds better than sawdust issues?

Over and over again, I read here on the forum about people with questions about their wet sewage systems. And over and over again, I think about how I am so glad not to deal with those issues, to the point of wondering why anyone would tolerate a wet sewage system at all. But I have also read and heard reports of negatives with some user choices of composting toilets. It came to me again, that what one couple described as "not a perfect system", makes mine look like a perfect system.

Before I made my choice, I met 2 different boats had been so disappointed with their composting toilets, that they reverted to wet systems. But I persisted in my homework, and am really really.... really happy with the choice that eventually made.

It might be a good time to mention that composting toilets only start the composting process. The end product is not compost, but rather desiccated waste. So getting any moisture in the drying compartment is a BIG NO NO. If that moisture happens to be urine, things only go downhill fast, and the REQUIRED vent and fan come into play.

But it gets a lot more serious. It seems that some designs are prone to emitting effluvia due to the PROBABILITY of some of the wet getting into the dry.

The movement of air in a composting toilet should primarily be an aid in the desiccating process, and secondly to help make the solids bin unattractive to gnats. Please note that odor control is not an issue with all systems. But there are toilets that have the potential for urine to find it’s way into the solids bin. Hence, “not a perfect system”. It is said that composting toilets are not well suited to the tropics due to the humidity. I am in the tropics. No vents, no hoses, no fans and no odor.

With the C Head, getting urine in the solids bin has to be intentional.

A well designed toilet is going to resemble something much closer to what bears do in the woods. Some people are willing to tolerate what I would not, because of their fear of odors. Simple is better. My point is, it seems that the better advertisers work hard to appear to address the "ieuuuu" factor for anyone considering their product. In the end, (and in my opinion) what you have is closer to a contraption that cost more, takes more space, is harder to install and empty, and is "not a perfect system” (urine where it shouldn’t be).

For any of you who walk your dog, picking up after them with your hand in a plastic bag, and still concern yourself with the ieuuuu factor of composting toilets over wet sewage systems,... well... I tried.

A couple of points that I also want to mention in this potty RE-training here are splatter from men relieving themselves while standing, and the use of rolls of TP.

When we go into the mens room, with it’s dedicated fixtures, we find something that accommodates men while minimizing splatter. It’s called a urinal. Not sure why that is important in places where we share this space in public places with other men, but not important where we share this space with those that sit to relieve themselves, and sometimes have deal with said male splatter before sitting. In a constantly shifting space, (boat) it makes even less sense to try to hit the tiny bulls eye. And the convenience of men relieving themselves over the rail, too often leads to floating bodies with their fly open. Some pay attention to this detail, and some do not. I do not tolerate this unsafe practice. I happen to be one who saves the empty liquid laundry detergent and fabric softener bottles. Each male crew gets his own. The spouts often pop right out, or are easily cut out. What you are left with is a sturdy urinal with a handle, a wide mouth opening, and a really great sealing cap. This is usable in rough water and calm, with less splatter than you can achieve with the permanent fixtures ashore.

Rolls of TP are very consumable. A very good idea for those that want us to believe we must use that product. Not so good for those who fall for it. And on a boat, it becomes an issue of storage. I noticed that consumption was about a roll a week just for myself, when my wife was not aboard. I calculated that there was more usable TP in a box of facial tissue than on a roll. I went from 1 roll a week, to one box lasting 4 MONTHS. In one trip to Costco, I acquired what looks like 3 years worth of TP. If you only get one month out of a box of tissue, you still win.

That was great, I have a "C" head and agree with all you say, including the Pee bottles, I used the same kind. It is easy to store and you can MT the pee bottles in any shore side head. Best thing I ever did for a head, love it

[alansmith]

All "use" guys...microbiologist by education and trade. So, let's talk about microbiology of urine for a second. Unless a person has a nephritis or bladder infection "male" urine should have a zero colony count...Zilch...Nada...STERILE. Women due to their anatomy have colony counts approaching 10k/ml if their urine is sterile. These 10k/ml or less colony counts are due to vaginal flora. So, the woman's urine is sterile also...but contaminated by vaginal flora when she urinates. Hope it helps to understand. I have 40 years in the Biz and have read hundreds of thousands of urine cultures in my career.

Now....tongue in cheek here....are you aware that the normal urine output for a human per day is approximately 1500ml/24 hours? Since one gallon is converted to 3700 mills...can we just very roughly state that a human being pees about half a gallon a day? That amount can change a little bit if he is 4 star high school football star who is working out hard and drinking gatorade like a fish drinks water versus grandma sitting on the couch with her morning cup of tea and glass of milk at lunch.

Are you aware that a fin whale excretes 257 gallons of urine/day. Has anybody talked to Neptune lately about this potentially devastating environmental disaster? There are over 20K fin whales out there. Can you imagine following behind them when they get together for a hoe down? You literally could be awash in urea/creatinine/ and god only knows himself what is going on with the Sodium/Potassium levels. We are not even talking about the other mammals in the ocean like dolphins, humpbacks, right whales, seals, sea lions, otters, beluga, walrus....the list is quite long.

Okay..i agree that maybe the Polar Bears can be asked to pee on the sea ice. Some may have to wait till they get back on land like walrus, sea lions, and seals. Can we agree to just forgive the sea otters for peeing...they are so cute and not alot of volume? But honestly, something has to be done with the whales.

When i read about the mortal dangers of a human beings pee being dumped into the ocean from a sailor and i understand that it would take over 400 days of urine accumulated from one human being to equal one fin whales excretion in a single day...and i know how few sailors there really are out there ...and i know there are over 1.7 million whales left (know one really knows)...and i know the size of a human being is approx 150 lbs when combining male and female...okay...american women and american men 165 lbs... and i compare urine output from a 100 ton (2000lbsX100 tons)=200000lbs behemoth...while i just have to say Balderdash.

I am not trying to offend anyone or their beliefs. I believe in the heart of my hearts that sailors have a very low carbon footprint. I have lived in Russia and China. You have no idea what their culture is like if you ain't been there. We are squeeky clean compared to many societies.

I am not suggesting we throw urine in the ocean. But i do not like discrimination in any form. My conscious mind will abruptly rise up in dissent. Unless someone sends the World Health Organization to talk to Neptune and his regional representatives about whales pissing in the oceans...it is just plain and bold...in your face...discrimination that my lousy half gallon of urine can compare to 257 gallons of those lousy Fin Whales. You do the math. Don't even get me started how much sh$t they are pumping into our pristine waters.

[smj]

Originally Posted by Maka

I have one of these. Love it. No pumping, no dumping. Ever.
Threads like this make me so grateful that I don't have to deal with the crap so many sailors do.
~ pun intended ~

Never pulled the unit apart to clean the plates?

[Scout 30]

Great post Alan. Although I am a "tree hugger" saving the environment had nothing to do with us changing to a C-Head. The State of Florida worrying about boats pumping overboard when municipalities bypass millions of gallons of sewage whenever it rains hard is just a diversion. We changed to a C-Head because it was by far the easiest way to make our boat legal because it was never set up with a useable holding tank. Plus, when you're anchored where a lot of people are swimming pumping overboard is kind of gross. One of the great things about the C-Head is how easy it is to dump. Just lift the lid & pull out the bucket. Works great.