Catalina smile or something more?

[Cadence]

I'd validate the surveyor. I had one that sent me a nice print up of everything I told him.

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by Dpmmvc

I’m in the market for a Catalina 30. I’m attaching a picture of the largest Catalina smile I’ve seen in person. This boat is in nice condition other then this keel smiling at me. Should I be worried ? The owner said they’ve fixed the crack but it keeps coming back🤔

Shut off the bilge pump and pour a couple gallons of RV antifreeze in the bilge. Leave for a day. If you get pink on the outside, the keel needs removed and rebed. If it doesn’t leak, tighten keel bolts, fill, and fair.

[Island Time O25]

While it's rarely makes economic sense to get a survey on a 30 year old 30 footer if the price is right (and it will get "righter" after the survey) it may be in store. May want to get the keel bolts torqued to see if there is any play or looseness in one or any number of them.

On boats with realistic values under $20K dropping the keel and fixing everything right can go as high as $10K or higher depending on location and the actual problem. Can be as easy as just rebedding the keel stub or as involved as replacing the keel bolts.

Given that this is and for the forseeable future will be the buyer's market (especially for 30+ yr old monos) you can find a better specimen for a bit more money. Say this one is purchased for $3-5K plus whatever you need to fix it. After all said and done, including cost on the hard during the repairs, lost time that you can be working making add'l income, etc, you can end up with easily a $15-20K boat or higher.

Compare this with finding a boat for about $20K you can sail right away.

Now if your goal is to learn all there is to know about sailboat repair, maintenance and whatnot that's another story. Then this will be an excellent boat for such a goal. But you need to decide early on which one will it be because changing your mind later will be much more expensive.

[sailingchiro]

In a past life, I had a Catalina 25 with the smile. Drilled more holes and added more keel bolts. Refaired the crack and problem solved. The existing bolts were pretty rusty and even though they would not budge, they had loosened the hull/keel joint. I will say, it took some time and effort to drill the cast iron keel. Some had lead and some had cast iron.

[Brewgyver]

Originally Posted by Empty Pockets

Frank Butler, or Gerry Douglas. And that’s exactly what I’d do. You’ll be surprised how quickly you have your answer. And if all it is is the keel/hull joint, and you like the boat, it’s a fairly straightforward repair.

Duh! Yes, send it to Gerry Douglas!

[Brewgyver]

Originally Posted by sailingchiro

... Some had lead and some had cast iron.

AFAIK, all of the 30s with FIN keels were cast lead. Not sure about the wing keels...

Edit: Checked Catalina literature, the 30 and larger boats were and are still made with lead keels.

[OS2Dude]

That is about where the 'smile' is on our 1985 Catalina 30 full keel. The Catalina's keel stub comes down quite a bit, it is what holds the bilge, pumps, bolts, mast base, etc. The 'smile' can't be truly -FIXED- without a lot of work. (Dropping the keel, grinding the lead smooth, epoxy to form a custom mating surface, fairing, etc....)

[roland stockham]

Smile? More like a grimace. That keel need rebedding. The damage right at the front looks to be from a grounding but the fact that it extends along the whole length would suggest that the bolts are loose. In a bad grounding or just over time bolts can stretch or deteriorate and once loose will lead to continouse problems with the joint. I would not be happy with this boat untill the keel was dropped and the bolts and mounting had been fully checked or replaced. Not sure on this boat how the load is transferred from the keel to the hull but that wants checking as the problem may be in the bearing framing. Either way this is a boatyard job so you need a good repair estimate and to negotiate the price accordingly. Cost will depend very much on location. Best bet would be to talk to the yard where she is and see if they can do it or get a contractor to come in. May also be worth getting a survayor to supervise the job and maybe asking that a portion of the purchase price is witheld pending repairs or offering full price but current owner pays the repair bill.

[sailingchiro]

Originally Posted by Brewgyver

AFAIK, all of the 30s with FIN keels were cast lead. Not sure about the wing keels...

Edit: Checked Catalina literature, the 30 and larger boats were and are still made with lead keels.

If it lead, that will make alot easier to drill. If I remember (been a few beers ago) Catalina sells the kit to "reattach" the keel. Alot more work than cost.

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by Island Time O25

While it's rarely makes economic sense to get a survey on a 30 year old 30 footer if the price is right (and it will get "righter" after the survey) it may be in store. May want to get the keel bolts torqued to see if there is any play or looseness in one or any number of them.

On boats with realistic values under $20K dropping the keel and fixing everything right can go as high as $10K or higher depending on location and the actual problem. Can be as easy as just rebedding the keel stub or as involved as replacing the keel bolts.

Given that this is and for the forseeable future will be the buyer's market (especially for 30+ yr old monos) you can find a better specimen for a bit more money. Say this one is purchased for $3-5K plus whatever you need to fix it. After all said and done, including cost on the hard during the repairs, lost time that you can be working making add'l income, etc, you can end up with easily a $15-20K boat or higher.

Compare this with finding a boat for about $20K you can sail right away.

Now if your goal is to learn all there is to know about sailboat repair, maintenance and whatnot that's another story. Then this will be an excellent boat for such a goal. But you need to decide early on which one will it be because changing your mind later will be much more expensive.

In my opinion, the only boat one should not have surveyed, is when purchasing a vessel to part out and cut for scrap.

For everything else, regardless of vessel ask price, the purchaser needs to get a survey.

First, the survey is needed to simply get insurance, and every marina should insist every boater have insurance to ensure everyone is protected from everyone else’s total stupidity.

Second, it’s needed for the valuation, by someone who knows what they are doing, and doesn’t have boat lust blinders on.

Third, it’s needed to identify MOST issues, so one can prepare estimates for deferred maintenance, repairs, and improvements.

Despite running a boat maintenance, repair, and improvement business, and inspecting a 100 or so boats per year, I still get a third party survey.

In Ontario, for NAMs or Sams certified surveyor (I won’t hire anything but, because I see all kinds of crappy reports from unqualified “surveyors”) it costs about C$20/ft.

The survey is used to determine if you wish to purchase the boat, and if it’s worth your time and effort to repair and improve it, to be the boat you want it to be.

Every boat has issues, and in my experience (pretty extensive) a “clean survey” means the surveyor did a poor job.

The typical 35 year old boat in “good” condition should have about 20 to 40 issues cited.

I can’t stress enough, hire a SAMS or NAMs certified surveyor only, even if they charge double what a non certified surveyor (aka boat bum who think they know way more than they really do).

Even for a $5000 boat, the survey is small potatoes compared to what you will spend on it over the years , if you plan to take decent care of the vessel you are counting on to take you back to port instead of straight to the bottom.)

Oh,and by the way, if you are not going to take good care of it, please leave it for someone who will, I see way too many people buy boats because they could afford the loan payments but not the repairs, maintenance, and improvements necessary to keep it out of landfill.

[ferrailleur]

the keel is ready to fall off!

[JackMcD111]

what year is she? how much you paying? This does not look worrisome at all... it is lead after all.

[Island Time O25]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

In my opinion, the only boat one should not have surveyed, is when purchasing a vessel to part out and cut for scrap.

For everything else, regardless of vessel ask price, the purchaser needs to get a survey.

First, the survey is needed to simply get insurance, and every marina should insist every boater have insurance to ensure everyone is protected from everyone else’s total stupidity.

Second, it’s needed for the valuation, by someone who knows what they are doing, and doesn’t have boat lust blinders on.

Third, it’s needed to identify MOST issues, so one can prepare estimates for deferred maintenance, repairs, and improvements.

Despite running a boat maintenance, repair, and improvement business, and inspecting a 100 or so boats per year, I still get a third party survey.

In Ontario, for NAMs or Sams certified surveyor (I won’t hire anything but, because I see all kinds of crappy reports from unqualified “surveyors”) it costs about C$20/ft.

The survey is used to determine if you wish to purchase the boat, and if it’s worth your time and effort to repair and improve it, to be the boat you want it to be.

Every boat has issues, and in my experience (pretty extensive) a “clean survey” means the surveyor did a poor job.

The typical 35 year old boat in “good” condition should have about 20 to 40 issues cited.

I can’t stress enough, hire a SAMS or NAMs certified surveyor only, even if they charge double what a non certified surveyor (aka boat bum who think they know way more than they really do).

Even for a $5000 boat, the survey is small potatoes compared to what you will spend on it over the years , if you plan to take decent care of the vessel you are counting on to take you back to port instead of straight to the bottom.)

Oh,and by the way, if you are not going to take good care of it, please leave it for someone who will, I see way too many people buy boats because they could afford the loan payments but not the repairs, maintenance, and improvements necessary to keep it out of landfill.

I agree in general but the devil is in the economic details. I just don't see it as viable economics to start spending (by either the seller or the buyer or both) 50% or more of the potential purchase price on surveys (general, engine and rigging), launch or/and haul out costs, workmanlike repairs by seller, etc. That would kill a majority of $10,000 and under purchases.

In the ideal world yes would be as you say, in the real world of cheap boats and less then welathy buyers not happening.

[AgPilot]

I had a 1977 Catalina shoal draft for a few years, my first "big boat". I bought it because it fell into my price range, and I was thrilled! After the purchase was complete and I had it back in the marina where I was using it as a live aboard, I discovered that the keel bolts were rusted to the core. One of the nuts was actually rusted off. Check the keel bolts !!! They should be shinny and clean.

[Tetepare]

On the plus side, the C30 keel bolts are readily accessible. Look at them, see if one or more can be tightened.