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strahancr · 20-09-2018, 06:27

While searching used catamarans for sale in the 40'-45' range, I have noticed that there seems to be many more used Lagoons available, than Leopards. Can someone enlighten with the reason?

Thanks!

CatNewBee · 20-09-2018, 06:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by strahancr

While searching used catamarans for sale in the 40'-45' range, I have noticed that there seems to be many more used Lagoons available, than Leopards. Can someone enlighten with the reason?

Thanks!

Look at the production figures. Lagoon builts far more cats than R&C in all sizes and flavors.

Since 1984 Lagoon has built over 5000 boats up to now, in 2017 they built more than 400 alone.

R&C has built in total around 1500 boats since 1991.

rabbi · 20-09-2018, 07:23

R&C just updated their website yesterday. It now says they have build 1781 boats, of which 1194 or 67% were supplied to TUI Marine.
That includes the early years when they were not sole catamaran supplier of TUI marine, so in recent years its more like 75-80% going to TUI marine.
Add a few other smaller charter companies and just around 10% of all Leopards go to private owners.

Most of these charter cats were built in recent years as charter cats have grown in numbers significantly.

Many charter boats stay in first tier charter companies for 5 years, and then get transferred to second tier for another five years. So they don't hit the market before the ten year mark.

Lagoons & FP have a differnt market. Somewhat less charter, and tend to get on the market earlier and thus more often.

Honestly, before they made this TUI marine deal is was a smallish and unknown builder. Now that they are present in every charter location many people just think Leopards are dominating the world.
Nope, its only one (huge) charter company making a market.

CatNewBee · 20-09-2018, 07:46

In Europe Leopards are rare. Mostly there are the French brands around for charter (Lagoon, FP, Bali (Bavaria)) and private use (Lagoon, Catana, Nautitech, Outremar and some earlier smaller FP like Orana, Lipari, Mahe, Athena etc. and occasionaly a Privilege or the Polish Sunreef on the other end).

First out of charter cats are sold usualy after 5 years.

AFAIK, Moorings in the Caribbean are the only with a Leopard fleet.

Another reason, Charter-Leopards are branded Moorings 4000, 4200, 3900, 4600 etc. They add some 00 behind the model number of Leopard (charter versions!) so search for Moorings (ex-charter) and for Leopards (owners versions)

rabbi · 20-09-2018, 08:28

@CatNewBee
I am really sorry but I have to disagree on most points.

Sunsail & Moorings offer only Leopards worldwide, both are owned by TUI Marine. There is as far as I can see, exactly one older Lagoon 440 left in the Sunsail fleet, located in Sardinia. They haven't offered ownership for Lagoons for many years now.

DreamYachtCharter seems to be open for other brands, as are smaller companies like Kiriacoulis and local charter bases. But the largest global fleets are Leopads only.

Charter boats are typically phased out from the first tier charter fleets at age 5, but many go into second tier charter fleets where they are chartered a bit cheaper for another few years. barefoot charter for example.

All used Leopards I have ever seen have been advertised as such, even if it was in fact a "Sunsail 384". Never seen a used boa advertised strictly as Sunsail / Moorings boats.

Triumphant · 20-09-2018, 11:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by rabbi

@CatNewBee
I am really sorry but I have to disagree on most points.

Sunsail & Moorings offer only Leopards worldwide, both are owned by TUI Marine. .

I think this is not correct, TUI sold Travelopia parent of Sunsail and The Moorings in Feb 2017

"The TUI Group said it has an agreement to sell U.K.-based travel operator Travelopia, parent of Sunsail and The Moorings, to the U.S. private equity firm KKR & Co. for $403.7 million."

see https://www.tradeonlytoday.com/indus...-new-ownership

rabbi · 20-09-2018, 13:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Triumphant

I think this is not correct, TUI sold Travelopia parent of Sunsail and The Moorings in Feb 2017

"The TUI Group said it has an agreement to sell U.K.-based travel operator Travelopia, parent of Sunsail and The Moorings, to the U.S. private equity firm KKR & Co. for $403.7 million."

see https://www.tradeonlytoday.com/indus...-new-ownership

I stand corrected, thats new to me!

@CatNewBee
Replace TUI Marine with KKR or Travelopia and the meaning stays the same.

Quote from their website says that TUI Marine (now KKR/ Travelopia) has chosen Leopard for exclusive partnership.

Quote:

Having successfully collaborated for almost 20 years, TUI Marine and South African builder Robertson & Caine have committed to a 10-year renewal of their exclusive distribution and supply agreement.

I actually found that Footloose also belonged to TUI marine and also offers only ownership programs for Leopards.

billgewater · 20-09-2018, 15:35

The Robertson and Craine factory is in Capetown and it seems very busy to me.
However at Knysna (a delightful little harbour around the SA coast) is a family company that produces (IMHO) absolutely delightful cats. The workmanship appears to be outstanding and you can have the boat built to your own requirements. Plus they are probably the most attractive looking cats in a market place of some seriously ugly boats, although that is a matter of opinion I suppose.
It also seemed to me that a reason these South African companies can produce such splendid boats has a lot to do with the pay rates for much of their staff, plus the Cape area has a deep maritime history so they know their boats.

jmschmidt · 20-09-2018, 18:12

SA cats can be imported into the US duty free.

Kitfox4 · 20-09-2018, 20:41

Since you named R & C can you kindly name the other company?
Thanks
dave

rabbi · 20-09-2018, 23:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kitfox4

Since you named R & C can you kindly name the other company?
Thanks
dave

https://www.knysnayachtco.com

Product line starts at 50ft. Certainly not comparable with one of the big 3 cat builders.

LeeV · 21-09-2018, 00:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by rabbi

https://www.knysnayachtco.com

Product line starts at 50ft. Certainly not comparable with one of the big 3 cat builders.

And I do wish we could afford one; lovely boats!

MikeFergie · 21-09-2018, 00:37

Essentially you have mass builders and custom builders of cats.

In the mass market FP and Lagoon have been around for years and catered for the European market (the med) this then spread to the US / Caribbean.

R&C marketed as Leopard was a custom builder building low volume high end boats for the US market and Caribbean. Seldom to Europe.

When they signed the original deal with moorings they brought in the mooring brand onto the boats and spec’d them as moorings wanted. These boats are as you say moorings 4000 or 3800 etc but they continued to make the Leopard brand to a higher spec as each customer wanted. To this day you still can buy a Leopard that is branded as such and never been through the charter system.

The R&C is the surnames of the two partners who started and owned the company. Robertson and Caine. When Caine passed away his share then became available and it was bought by the Tui group. This allowed for them to direct the market in their direction to meet the mass needs of their customers.

With the leopard brand being mainly sold from Florida in the US I am sure you are seeing more and more of the boats in the US / Caribbean and with mooring operating in Seychelles, Thailand, and the med you are seeing a lot of expansion in these regions of the boats.

With hurricane Irma which wiped out so many boats the R&C factory in Cape Town has almost doubled in size to meet the demand of replacement boats coming from the factory.

2 years ago when I was at the Ullman sails HQ in Cape Town fetching my new spinnaker they had an order for 309 sets of sails for that year from the R&C factory. I predict that with the Irma replacements they should be the highest volume manufacturer for the next few years.

In terms of low volume builders there is at least 6 that I know of making really high tech 1 or 2 cats per year builders in South Africa.

With spars being made in Cape Town, the biggest sail loft in the world doing carbon/ Mylar sails and Dacron, and a large fiberglass / epoxy manufacturer (NCS resins) all that needs to be imported is the electronics etc to build boats there.

M2cents
MikeF