Gemini Legacy 35. First sailboat?

[Belle25]

Originally Posted by Augi

Checkout Gemini 105 MC's the previous model to the Legacy 35. I have no first hand experience with either model but 105 MC's have retractable center boards so less draft for the Bahamas, lighter than a Legacy so might sail better and with center boards might point a little higher. I think the 105MC's until about 2011 were made by the designer and after that Hunter. I think Legacy 35's are built by Catalina and initially by Hunter. I think you can get a 105 MC in decent shape for $90K to $100K there are some lower hours' hull's of 105MC's out there for more up to about $125K. There is a good owner's forum for all things Gemini: main@geminicatamarans.groups.io You can join the forum by just saying you are thinking if buying. If you go back and look at the posts you can get a good feel what owning one will be like. Because the 105MC's are an older model, so many were sold and I think a lot more were sold than the Legacy 35's so far, so every conceivable issue that can come up has been discussed on the Gemini Owners Forum, more than once.

See more links below:

https://vimeo.com/5595748

https://www.practical-sailor.com/sai...s/gemini-105mc

https://www.geminicatamarans.com/GEM...y-vs-105Mc.pdf

https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...es-161305.html

An advantage of the Legacy 35 is two engines for redundancy versus one for the 105 MC. But two engines means more expense to run and maintain.

What you save upfront on even a low hours 105 MC for approx. $125K versus a new or newer Legacy 35, you can have a big reserve to repair, replace whatever breaks and fit her out the way you want.

If I was in the market for a Gemini and the plan was to sail the Bahamas and Florida I would try to find a 105 MC in great shape, that has been well maintained for a fair price instead of a Legacy 35. But everybody has different needs, wants and desires.

Go charter a Legacy 35 and try and find an owner of an 105 MC that will take you for a a couple hour sail. I don't think there are any 105 MC's available to charter. Try and find some one that does not have an axe to grind that has sailed a good bit on both models.

I have no interest in catamarans, but I've heard about 105; an owner friend of mine enjoys bragging about her, a lot. Seems as if the 35 is almost a downgrade - why changing a winning team? The video on your post should make gemini reconsider, I think.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Belle25

I have no interest in catamarans, but I've heard about 105; an owner friend of mine enjoys bragging about her, a lot. Seems as if the 35 is almost a downgrade - why changing a winning team? The video on your post should make gemini reconsider, I think.

I think it's unfamiliar people (old salts who know better but have never cruised one) driving the design process now that the old guy who came up with the design is no longer running the company.

Originally, the boat was designed for a single outboard but old salts said, only a diesel would do. So they offered a single diesel with a wonky outdrive...pretty soon they dropped the outboard option as no one was buying it.

Yet, among owners, it's common for them to convert to outboard when they get fed up with the wonky outdrive.

Now it seems the old salts have convinced the new corporate owners that the boards that have been a key feature for 40yrs of production are a horrible idea and fixed minikeels are the way to go. Of course, they sacrifice performance and shallow water capability that was the hallmark of the boat.

Same thing with cats needing 2 motors because the old salts don't understand that with a single motor that can be steered, once you understand how to handle it (it does handle different from a single inboard), it's darn close to the same maneuverability.

I can see in a few years, a lot of these will be converted to single outboard but retrofitting the board would be more challenging.

[Augi]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

I think it's unfamiliar people (old salts who know better but have never cruised one) driving the design process now that the old guy who came up with the design is no longer running the company.

Originally, the boat was designed for a single outboard but old salts said, only a diesel would do. So they offered a single diesel with a wonky outdrive...pretty soon they dropped the outboard option as no one was buying it.

Yet, among owners, it's common for them to convert to outboard when they get fed up with the wonky outdrive.

Now it seems the old salts have convinced the new corporate owners that the boards that have been a key feature for 40yrs of production are a horrible idea and fixed minikeels are the way to go. Of course, they sacrifice performance and shallow water capability that was the hallmark of the boat.

Same thing with cats needing 2 motors because the old salts don't understand that with a single motor that can be steered, once you understand how to handle it (it does handle different from a single inboard), it's darn close to the same maneuverability.

I can see in a few years, a lot of these will be converted to single outboard but retrofitting the board would be more challenging.

My guess, although there may be something to the above, the primary driving force for the changes to the Legacy 35 versus 105 MC was to make the new model more suited for chartering and keep up with the competition in the charter market.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Augi

My guess, although there may be something to the above, the primary driving force for the changes to the Legacy 35 versus 105 MC was to make the new model more suited for chartering and keep up with the competition in the charter market.

I know there are some in charter but the main market for these have always been owners not charter.

Unlike the bigger cats, you don't get the 4 equal cabins.

[Belle25]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Same thing with cats needing 2 motors because the old salts don't understand that with a single motor that can be steered, once you understand how to handle it (it does handle different from a single inboard), it's darn close to the same maneuverability.

they could've at least just convert 105 into a 2 motor cat, without changing any other design feature.
what you say is interesting.

[Belle25]

Originally Posted by Augi

My guess, although there may be something to the above, the primary driving force for the changes to the Legacy 35 versus 105 MC was to make the new model more suited for chartering and keep up with the competition in the charter market.

I think you are right, but still while enjoying fleet sales with the 35, they should've thought about the needs of the private owners - why killing a great sailing catamaran that has a great reputation among serious sailors. Maybe just a bad marketing decision.

[Augi]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

I know there are some in charter but the main market for these have always been owners not charter.

Unlike the bigger cats, you don't get the 4 equal cabins.

My understanding is at the time they wanted to sell more boats into charter, while maintaining the "owners' market and prompted most of the changes, but it did not workout that way much.

Going from boards to keels is the biggest change. Charters forget to raise and lower boards, and the keels are better if the boat does run aground.

Offering a second head is pointed towards charter market.

The extra weight of the Legacy 35 most mean it sails somewhat less well.

The reviews seem to be about even for and against the single diesel with drive leg versus two diesels. These days a big hassle with the drive leg is some of the parts for the drive leg are not made. There is a market for used drive legs driven by existing 105 owners that want to have spare parts ready in reserve. A negative of the two diesels is access is under the rear berths on either side rather than from the middle and side lazarettes f0r the single diesel. In terms of noise, vibration, and access not being inside the cabins the location of the single diesel is much better than the two diesels. The single diesel is a lot lighter, costs less to run and maintain and prop can be out of the water when sailing. Obviously, the advantage of the twin diesels is the redundancy. I think maybe the best set up for the 105 MC would be twin 10 HP outboards or a maximum of 15 HP outboards mounted in the aft center that would turn with the rudders, and can be electrically lifted out of the water when sailing.

[Rohan]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

The interior of the 105 and the Legacy are nearly identical. I believe it uses the same hull molds just changes out the lifting boards for fixed keels (along with engine configuration)...not clear how it would be more bright inside?

The Legacy 35 has larger windows all around, and they pushed the cabintop windows a little further forward, so overall it makes a huge difference. Here are a couple photos for comparison, the 105 on top and the Legacy on the bottom:

https://dailyboats.com/bimg/1/1/8/0/7/9/boat/2.jpg

https://www.dreamyachtcharter.com/wp...n-salon-ok.jpg

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Rohan

The Legacy 35 has larger windows all around, and they pushed the cabintop windows a little further forward, so overall it makes a huge difference. Here are a couple photos for comparison, the 105 on top and the Legacy on the bottom:

https://dailyboats.com/bimg/1/1/8/0/7/9/boat/2.jpg

https://www.dreamyachtcharter.com/wp...n-salon-ok.jpg

The pictures are taken from 2 different locations on the boat.
- The first is further forward and angled down so you don't see the upper forward windows.
- The second is all the way back at the entrance door and angled up, so you can see the upper forward windows.

Sitting at the table you won't see out those windows in either boat.

If it's the dark wood, you could always paint the main bulkhead white.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Belle25

they could've at least just convert 105 into a 2 motor cat, without changing any other design feature.
what you say is interesting.

It's actually the same hull molds. They simply grafted on minikeels and switched to twin inboards.

That's why the legacy sits so low in the stern. They added a lot of weight back there.

[Belle25]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

It's actually the same hull molds. They simply grafted on minikeels and switched to twin inboards.

That's why the legacy sits so low in the stern. They added a lot of weight back there.

The bottom of the hulls are different - Retractability. Well, I guess, by saying minikeels, you addressed that.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Belle25

The bottom of the hulls are different - Retractability. Well, I guess, by saying minikeels, you addressed that.

Same hull but instead of cutting a slot and fitting a box, they add fixed minikeels (I'm not sure if they modified the molds so the minikeels are cast interigal to the hull but same effect)

[Belle25]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Same hull but instead of cutting a slot and fitting a box, they add fixed minikeels (I'm not sure if they modified the molds so the minikeels are cast interigal to the hull but same effect)

Isn't that a big change though, especially considering the outcome effect on the boat's sailing capabilities?

[Davy J]

I'm not convinced that the hull is the same.

Stern of 105Mc:




Stern of Legacy:





Similar for sure, but hardly the same.

[Rohan]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

The pictures are taken from 2 different locations on the boat.
- The first is further forward and angled down so you don't see the upper forward windows.
- The second is all the way back at the entrance door and angled up, so you can see the upper forward windows.

Sitting at the table you won't see out those windows in either boat.

If it's the dark wood, you could always paint the main bulkhead white.

I couldn't find a photo from the exact same angles. So maybe it's the dark wood? I don't know. But the fact remains that the Legacy windows are larger, and there's less of a "cave" with low headroom above the salon table.