Cruising boat for a 62 and 63 year old?.

[waterman46]

If you can afford a cat big enough to handle easily all expected weather, to carry everything you want on board, plus water and fuel for extended passages if that is your intent, then the choice of cat is clear. Definitely get one with galley on deck level not down in hull.

[jtsailjt]

Simi, your boat looks beautiful in the pictures but your boat is also significantly larger than the motorboats I mentioned, like 50% longer which amounts to 2 or 3 times the displacement with proportionally higher freeboard and ability to handle bad weather. I would hope you could withstand the 35 knots you mention but how would all that freeboard and those flat sides do in 70 knots? Those big windows are great for the 95% of the time at anchor you mention and as long as it’s just spray coming aboard but have you considered how they’ll hold up if you ever get surprised by worse than expected conditions and it’s a few tons of green water instead. I never planned to get into weather like that, but I did anyway and it can happen to you as well. But I’m sure that the combination of the much larger than average size of your boat combined with carefully watching weather windows as you say you do will keep you safe. Those cruisers who take longer voyages and venture offshore can’t depend on your technique of always boating during good weather windows so have to be prepared for when it gets nasty.

I don’t have red hair but I do have a complexion similar to your wife’s with similar concerns about sun exposure. That’s why, just as in most cruising sailboats, our cockpit is covered with a dodger and Bimini and I always wear a hat when outside. That photo you posted looking out through that huge doorway looks very bright and sunny to me and shadows are visible directly beneath the chairs. Is that really the foredeck that you say is the only unshaded part of your boat?

I cant imagine anyone disagreeing with you that it makes sense to spend your time aboard in comfort but does the fact that you mentioned that mean you think folks on sailboats similar to the size of your boat are less comfortable? Not sure what you’re getting at there.

In your last post you say that you’ve showed that my fears and claims are “false” and based on hearsay rather than experience but you haven’t been specific as I have been. The fact that you think it’s significant that your 60’ boat was ok in 35 knots tells me that we’re not even on the same page when it comes to being safe in offshore conditions. Like I said, I think your boat looks beautiful and I’m sure it’s the perfect boat for how you plan to use it, but if you ever find yourself at sea in 60 or 70 knot winds and confused 20’+ seas, you might gain a different perspective about the relative merits of being a “cave dweller” vs those huge windows that seem so nice while at anchor. Your boat, depending on its design and size , might be ok in those conditions but many much smaller sailboats would also be fine, while a lot of typical 35-40 foot motorboats would definitely not be safe.

Boats are all made for a specific purpose in mind and a pretty big percentage of even very moderately sized sailboats are very capable of crossing oceans in safety but most recreational motorboats under 40’ are not. Sailboats have greater stability so they will self right if knocked down, reinforced hatches and companionways that can be secured closed so if green water comes aboard it will stay outside the hull, and of course the almost unlimited range that comes from not having to depend on the size of their fuel tanks. Most motorboats are built with more moderate conditions in mind and are attractive to boaters who plan to limit themselves to coastal cruising or relatively short hops from one island to another. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that kind of boating and can understand how big windows could become a very nice feature on these boats. But for the OP who seems to want to do some extended cruising, I think a sailboat is the obvious choice, even if he’s inclined to spend a big percentage of the time under power.

[InTheDish]

I am 62 and enjoying my first winter on our Lagoon 41 in the Bahamas.

A few day ago we went through the Whale, in the Atlantic seas were 4 to 6 feet and confused, the wind was a steady 20 KTS with gusts to 25.

While "outside" my wife, who's 60, and I decided to fart around with reefing, furling and just messing around with how our boat handled in moderate but uncomfortable seas at various angles and amounts of sail.

After an hour or so of "playing" we then had a great sail to Powell key where we both commented on our age. While we were able to do most of the things we used to be able to do we felt the effort.

We still plan on some long passages but will be ultra conservative on the amount of canvas we fly and for offshore will have at least one millennial with us in case there is real crisis work that needs to be performed.

Rick

EDIT- We are also starting to think of what kind of stinkpot we want when we are too feeble to sail.

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

what if?........20m seas....... 75 knot winds ..........we'll all be rooned.

Your comment reminds me of the "heavy duty" boat guy down at a Brisbane marina who had a boat so bulletproof that it would probably survive the storm you describe while bouncing off of icebergs.
Only catch was we live in a sub tropical/ tropical climate so never really see that sort of weather and the boat was so closed up that it would have been like a hot cave or oven.
Needless to say I never saw it move in over 20 years.

Anyway, full time cruisers are generally smart enough to avoid the "Perfect Storm" movie or "Fatal Storm" Sydney to Hobart weather you described.
95% of the time full time cruisers are at anchor where visibility, shade and cross ventilation is a bonus.

[Simi 60]

Also if windows are your only real concern its easy enough to fashion storm covers out of thick ply, composite sandwich or even armour plate glass as is done here.
Preparing Dirona for the North Atlantic Crossing – MV Dirona

Or the smaller more affordable 42 ft Kadey Krogan approach - this vessel and her caretaker has pretty much crossed the planet without dying
https://dauntlessatsea.com/tag/lexan-storm-windows/

And is something I had in mind when taking this to South East Asia or doing a Pacific Island crossing.
Boat is buttoned up, your fear of windows is sorted and we get all that ventilation and visibility back at passage end.

[chuckr]

Originally Posted by InTheDish

I am 62 and enjoying my first winter on our Lagoon 41 in the Bahamas.

A few day ago we went through the Whale, in the Atlantic seas were 4 to 6 feet and confused, the wind was a steady 20 KTS with gusts to 25.

While "outside" my wife, who's 60, and I decided to fart around with reefing, furling and just messing around with how our boat handled in moderate but uncomfortable seas at various angles and amounts of sail.

After an hour or so of "playing" we then had a great sail to Powell key where we both commented on our age. While we were able to do most of the things we used to be able to do we felt the effort.

We still plan on some long passages but will be ultra conservative on the amount of canvas we fly and for offshore will have at least one millennial with us in case there is real crisis work that needs to be performed.

Rick

EDIT- We are also starting to think of what kind of stinkpot we want when we are too feeble to sail.

You are where we were 11 years ago at the same age - playing in the Bahamas - after that for us at least things got out of hand and after all the Carib and a 2 handed pond crossing a circum nav of the Black Sea and most of the Med we are still planning on more by sail -

Not sure what too feeble means but I don't think that is in our lexicon -

[jtsailjt]

Simi, I think I’ve been pretty clear about many other issues besides big windows, such as ultimate stability, more comfortable motion at sea, fuel economy, and longer range as reasons why I feel that unless the owner is unable to sail, a sailboat is the better choice for cruising, especially if you plan to cover any long distances or multi day/week offshore passages. Of course it’s possible to travel long distances in a motorboat and it’s usually possible to avoid bad weather, but not always. The 70 knots I mentioned is nothing close to the perfect storm and can happen in a squall. I got caught in several hours of that between the Bahamas and Florida and it wasn’t predicted and there was nothing special in the newspapers the next day, just another norther that happened to be stronger than most in some areas. Unlucky timing on my part to be in these same areas when the strongest winds were also there but sometimes that’s the way it goes.

I do understand that some motorboats are a lot more seaworthy than others and some shortcomings, such as big windows, can be covered up at sea. But not everyone can afford a 60’ motorboat like yours. A great many of the motorboats in the 35-40’ range are great for coastal cruising if you don’t mind the noise and vibration and uncomfortable motion in anything but flat seas, and they all have nice big windows that are great at anchor. But for folks who really want to go cruising rather than sitting at anchor admiring the view, a similarly priced sailboat is the better choice.

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

bah blah blah.

But not everyone can afford a 60’ motorboat like yours. A great many of the motorboats in the 35-40’ range are great for coastal cruising if you don’t mind the noise and vibration and uncomfortable motion in anything but flat seas, .

And as I said before, our boat cost less than your sailboat and most half decent 40ft sailboats yet we have so much more comfort and load carrying ability.

I also put a link to a 42 ft motorboat that is relatively cheap and is actually crossing oceans, it to is probably cheaper than your sailboat.

And sailing boats that are motoring are also susceptible to vibration and noise, more so than us where we are not sitting on top of the motor and it is not in our living area.

Keep digging, its good for a laugh.




NEXT

[InTheDish]

Originally Posted by chuckr

You are where we were 11 years ago at the same age - playing in the Bahamas - after that for us at least things got out of hand and after all the Carib and a 2 handed pond crossing a circum nav of the Black Sea and most of the Med we are still planning on more by sail -

Not sure what too feeble means but I don't think that is in our lexicon -

Our current plan is to take seven or eight years to work our way to Australia and then sell this boat. That will be a fork on the decision tree.

More of the same or a move to the Dark Side.....we will have to see how my fake, and original, knee(s) are holding up.

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

And as I said before, our boat cost less than your sailboat and most half decent 40ft sailboats yet we have so much more comfort and load carrying ability.

I also put a link to a 42 ft motorboat that is relatively cheap and is actually crossing oceans, it to is probably cheaper than your sailboat.

And sailing boats that are motoring are also susceptible to vibration and noise, more so than us where we are not sitting on top of the motor and it is not in our living area.

Keep digging, its good for a laugh.




NEXT

This discussion hasn't really been about 60' motorboats like yours. You may have found an exception to the rule by somehow purchasing a nice 60' motorboat for very little money, but looking on Yachtworld, decent quality, used, 60' trawlers go for about half a million and upwards from there, so not really something for a typical cruiser to consider. Also, I note that most of these 60' trawlers are powered by 350-500 hp engines or twin engines, with fuel tanks that would break the bank of most cruisers to fill up.

I checked out your link the the Kadey Krogen and thought that's an interesting example. Just as almost all motorboats, it lacks ultimate stability compared with a similarly sized sailboat so to make up for that he uses paravanes to cut down on the uncomfortable roll (he says 40 degrees during the worst of his Atlantic crossing) but when he bent one of the booms, they were greatly degraded. A sailboats stability is a built-in part of the boat and doesn't require maintenance or manipulation, and unless the keel falls off, you can count on it to be there for you all the time in all conditions.

He says his average speed was 5.7 knots which is about what a comparably sized sailboat could do so no advantage there but it does bring his fuel consumption while motoring down to something close to a similarly sized sailboat.

Despite the fact that the Kadey Krogan you chose to cite actually has a mast, a jib, and a whisker pole, so is capable of sailing downwind or broad reaching in moderate conditions, he used a lot more fuel than a sailboat would have on that same voyage, and his dependence on fuel caused him to be motoring while heeled over, which in turn caused his fuel vents to suck salt water into his fuel tanks. I've had fuel problems at sea as well and found it was really nice to easily be able to keep the boat under control and moving in the direction I chose by using the sails rather than being at the mercy of the wind/waves at the location where my fuel problems shut down my engine.

As far as motoring and noise, yes, sailboats also have some of that. But the point is, much of the time sailboats are SAILING so there is no vibration or noise. Also, I note that the size of most trawler engines have 2 or 3 or 4 times as much horsepower as on similar sized sailboats because it takes more power to push that shape through the water than it does a more slender, longer sailboat. Which engine do you think causes greater vibration and noise, a 60 hp diesel turning at 75% or a 200hp diesel turning at 75%?Greater vibration and noise and it's there 100% of the time that you're underway.

Lastly, look at the low freeboard on that Kadey Krogen aft and those big windows. As long as the engine is working properly and you can keep the bow pointed into the waves they'll never be an issue, but if there's a problem with the engine or a helmsmens error and an overtaking wave comes aboard, I'd be fervently wishing those windows were MUCH smaller and more secure.

I realize that I'm not going to sell you on sailboats and I actually agree with you that motorboats have their advantages for certain kinds of boating and are absolutely wonderful in a safe harbor while at anchor, but for serious cruising where offshore conditions will occasionally be encountered, the stability, economy, and greater general seaworthiness of a sailboat makes them the obvious choice for most cruisers.

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

.

I realize that I'm not going to sell you on sailboats and I actually agree with you that motorboats have their advantages for certain kinds of boating and are absolutely wonderful in a safe harbor while at anchor, .

As stated earlier, sailing background and would prefer sail, but you, google nor any broker has been able to show us a sailing vessel that comes close to the liveability of what we have unless spending near a million dollars.
As 95% of any cruisers time is at anchor actually living, it seemed getting a vessel that suits the majority of its used time makes sense.



Powered vessels we had our choice of many, despite your one off claim and the difference in price between them and sail buys a lifetime of fuel and maintenance.

but for serious cruising where offshore conditions will occasionally be encountered, the stability, economy, and greater general seaworthiness of a sailboat makes them the obvious choice for most cruisers

as a working gulf trawler that travelled several thousands of miles from her home base each year to work in conditions that would have the majority of cruising yachties cowering under their bunks I wonder how she ever managed to survive.

Add in all the other commercial vessels around the globe working in adverse conditions, I wonder why they use powered vessels when you claim sail is the only safe choice.

As for economy, you continually forget the cost of rig, sails, witches, blocks etc, none of which I need.
You in your sailing boat that spends a hell of a lot of time motoring, still needs an engine and burns diesel AND if its a sizable comfortable sailboat, it probably uses around the same amount as we do.

[john61ct]

Big difference if you want "blue water" for say $20K, $50K after upfitting, and happy to live a camping lifestyle

vs hundred grand and up wanting first-world comforts *as well as* safety.

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

As stated earlier, sailing background and would prefer sail, but you, google nor any broker has been able to show us a sailing vessel that comes close to the liveability of what we have unless spending near a million dollars.
As 95% of any cruisers time is at anchor actually living, it seemed getting a vessel that suits the majority of its used time makes sense.



Powered vessels we had our choice of many, despite your one off claim and the difference in price between them and sail buys a lifetime of fuel and maintenance.



as a working gulf trawler that travelled several thousands of miles from her home base each year to work in conditions that would have the majority of cruising yachties cowering under their bunks I wonder how she ever managed to survive.

Add in all the other commercial vessels around the globe working in adverse conditions, I wonder why they use powered vessels when you claim sail is the only safe choice.

As for economy, you continually forget the cost of rig, sails, witches, blocks etc, none of which I need.
You in your sailing boat that spends a hell of a lot of time motoring, still needs an engine and burns diesel AND if its a sizable comfortable sailboat, it probably uses around the same amount as we do.

If your definition of "livability" consists primarily of square footage and optimizing it for the 95% of the time you plan to be at anchor, then I guess a houseboat is the ultimate cruising yacht? To me, the term "livability" as applied to a cruising vessel also includes the ability to survive in all conditions the cruiser might find himself sailing in. If you ever get in conditions your boat can't handle because it lacks stability or the ability to secure those big windows from big breaking waves, the 95% of the time you keep mentioning will suddenly seem pretty unimportant.

The cost of a sailboats rigging and sails is included in its original purchase price and the annual cost to maintain just the rig is less than what it costs to fill up your 60 footers fuel tanks just once. My sailboat, at 47' is nowhere near as sizable as yours, especially when you consider the greater width of your boat, but it does have about as much living space as most 40' motorboats that have 250-350 hp engines and you aren't going to convince too many that you can run a 250hp - 350hp engine as efficiently as a 88 hp engine.

Again, we are talking about "typical" sized cruising vessels closer to 35'-45' in length than your 60 footer, but in either case, most working motor vessels working offshore in the adverse conditions you mention are MUCH larger than this, like 100' or 200' or more feet larger. Most small commercial fishing trawlers do as you say you do and check the weather windows and only go out for a few days or maybe a week at a time and are not out there crossing oceans like many cruisers are. If you are going to venture out from shore in a typically sized cruising yacht far enough so good weather conditions can't be guaranteed for the duration of your voyage, you'd do well to be in a vessel that, if worse comes to worse, can either be sealed up to survive a knockdown and then right itself like a cruising sailboat can, or at least have the hulls sealed up like a cruising catamaran can. Heading offshore in a small motorboat with little ultimate stability and big windows seems to me to be a pretty reckless thing to do.

I think we've both and aren't going to convince each other so I'm out.

[nayu]

Hi Straydog,
i am 63 and i have just bough a boat to do the same thing as you around the same part of the world...originally,i was looking at 42/44 Bavaria for the space and comfort...then i remembered my previous sailing days-25 years ago-when i also lived on a 35 ft boat and cruised up to Hong kong for a couple of years...
i don't know your fitness or experience level,but for me,35 ft was already a bit of a handful at times..sure the boat i had was pretty "basic" and required a lot of "manual work"...(no anchor winch,no furlers,unreliable autopilot,etc...),but i imagined myself handling a 44ft boat at night in a blow on a lee shore and i started to have cold sweat...
so i opted for a more modern 35 ft boat... again...but better design,more comfort,more furlers and gadgets to make the sailing easier...and i still have cold sweat...!!!
63 is closer to 70 than it is to 45...will i still be physically able to save myself on the second night in a blow on a lee shore...!?

[nayu]

reading back all the posts here,(half of them about the virtues of converted trawlers and big diesel engines !!!?) i found out that you went for a 36 ft...great,sensible choice !!!hope to meet you on the water somewhere sometimes...nayu over and out...