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Old 05-03-2021, 07:10   #91
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Re: Beneteau, Jeanneau, Bavaria, Elan, etc. mass production boats that circumnavigate

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Originally Posted by daletournier View Post
So Greg regarding your comment of poorly designed and poorly built boats not being suitable how do you explain that in 12 years of fulltime cruising which includes a circumnavigation via South Africa I saw zero evidence of these poorly built and poorly designed modern boats failing? How do you explain that I've seen Benteaus, Jeanneaus, Barvarias etc complete circumnavigations?

You would think after the amount of fulltime cruising I've seen I would at least of seen one of these boats fail due to bad design and poor quality...wouldnt you?
I knew the answer given would some long verison of luck
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Old 05-03-2021, 07:11   #92
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Re: Beneteau, Jeanneau, Bavaria, Elan, etc. mass production boats that circumnavigate

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Originally Posted by daletournier View Post
So Greg regarding your comment of poorly designed and poorly built boats not being suitable how do you explain that in 12 years of fulltime cruising which includes a circumnavigation via South Africa I saw zero evidence of these poorly built and poorly designed modern boats failing? How do you explain that I've seen Benteaus, Jeanneaus, Barvarias etc complete circumnavigations?

You would think after the amount of fulltime cruising I've seen I would at least of seen one of these boats fail due to bad design and poor quality...wouldnt you?
I knew the answer given would be some long verison of luck
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Old 05-03-2021, 07:39   #93
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Re: Beneteau, Jeanneau, Bavaria, Elan, etc. mass production boats that circumnavigate

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ARC is just the small part of sailing boats which are crossing oceans. More of them sails solo.
Yeah we did with our beneteau 43, 2 times and preparing for the 3rd time now. I don’t feel the need to participate in silly Water boats">blue water boats discussions though
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Old 05-03-2021, 08:17   #94
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Re: Beneteau, Jeanneau, Bavaria, Elan, etc. mass production boats that circumnavigate

All kinds. It is a non issue. I circumnavigated in our Beneteau Moorings 445. Needs a cash input of about $100K to turn it from a stock coastal cruiser to become blue water capable. That includes labor. Need details contact me. Basically the rig needs to become cutter and nav & com systems need additions as well as electrics, refrigeration and desalination. In fact, there are few if any stock yachts that are blue water ready. Indeed, I recently charted a Jeanneau 47 and it too was nowhere near blue water ready.
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Old 05-03-2021, 10:37   #95
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Re: Beneteau, Jeanneau, Bavaria, Elan, etc. mass production boats that circumnavigate

Almost ANY boat can make it around the world, given a skipper that’s smart enough to not abuse it, and capable of fixing what breaks.
- better question is how many boats have you seen lose rudders or stays.

On a 6yr circumnavigaton, I saw 5 boats lose rudders......3 mono, 2 cats. Monos tended to be older. One was a Jenneau. In all cases the blades stayed in place, rotating on the rudder shaft. None were immediate reef hits.

Saw one 30 ft sailboat I wouldn’t take 25 nm offshore do a circumnavigation including Cape Horn.(Beagle Channel). Crazy young Dane, he’d do a leg, fix chain plates,deck delamination, hull leaks, fire off on next.

Was also at Customs in Marquesas when 2 couples came in to explain why one couple wasn’t on the crew list out of the last port.
- They had been rescued at sea after their boat sank 1,000 nm offshore.
Their production boat had been “fine” for a couple decades in the Carribbean, but enroute Panama to Marqueasas the forestay chainplate started peeling up, skipper slowed the boat down, hull became incredibly fouled, things got rough, the rudder tube started breaking free....ultimately the boat sank. Believe that was a Hughes 40, might have started as a kit.

I think most any new production boat is good enough for one downwind circumnavigation.
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Old 05-03-2021, 15:38   #96
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Re: Beneteau, Jeanneau, Bavaria, Elan, etc. mass production boats that circumnavigate

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Originally Posted by argonauta1 View Post
All kinds. It is a non issue. I circumnavigated in our Beneteau Moorings 445. Needs a cash input of about $100K to turn it from a stock coastal cruiser to become blue water capable. That includes labor. Need details contact me. Basically the rig needs to become cutter and nav & com systems need additions as well as electrics, refrigeration and desalination. In fact, there are few if any stock yachts that are blue water ready. Indeed, I recently charted a Jeanneau 47 and it too was nowhere near blue water ready.
Yes, I spent alot on my C470 to get it ready BUT as you said this is in the form of add ons eg Hydrovane, watermaker etc, I didnt have to reinforce anything or "tuffen her up".

I would argue that modern new boats are better circumnavigation boats than old " bluewater " boats, why? Because old boats are old and unless you plan to make them new again , old means worn out.

I also dont believe those old Tawain hulls are well built, cheap labor, climate issues and old techniques regarding lay up. I've seen a Tayana ground back to foam and was blown away by the 1000's of voids between the foam and glass, I would suggest a third of the foam wasnt bonded to the glass, it also had diesel in the core from black iron tanks failing.

I looked at another Tayana last week, they've spent in excess of 280k aud on it completely rebuilding the decks and cabin top, it had delimanated , after all that work it was a old boat with a nice paint job and new deck, still had old tanks, old wiring, old perkins , old rudder, original mast etc.

Btw , I no longer have my C470, but after a circumnavigation which included two Pacific crossings I would not of hesitated to go again in her other than a fee odd jobs..
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Old 05-03-2021, 15:53   #97
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Re: Beneteau, Jeanneau, Bavaria, Elan, etc. mass production boats that circumnavigate

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Originally Posted by nofacey View Post
Almost ANY boat can make it around the world, given a skipper that’s smart enough to not abuse it, and capable of fixing what breaks.
- better question is how many boats have you seen lose rudders or stays.

On a 6yr circumnavigaton, I saw 5 boats lose rudders......3 mono, 2 cats. Monos tended to be older. One was a Jenneau. In all cases the blades stayed in place, rotating on the rudder shaft. None were immediate reef hits.

Saw one 30 ft sailboat I wouldn’t take 25 nm offshore do a circumnavigation including Cape Horn.(Beagle Channel). Crazy young Dane, he’d do a leg, fix chain plates,deck delamination, hull leaks, fire off on next.

Was also at Customs in Marquesas when 2 couples came in to explain why one couple wasn’t on the crew list out of the last port.
- They had been rescued at sea after their boat sank 1,000 nm offshore.
Their production boat had been “fine” for a couple decades in the Carribbean, but enroute Panama to Marqueasas the forestay chainplate started peeling up, skipper slowed the boat down, hull became incredibly fouled, things got rough, the rudder tube started breaking free....ultimately the boat sank. Believe that was a Hughes 40, might have started as a kit.

I think most any new production boat is good enough for one downwind circumnavigation.
Norm, I respect your experience and agree regarding rudders BUT this applies not only to production boats. I know a Malo 46 that was lost due to the skeg rudder failure off the Seychelles, I also know of a steel boat lost of Mayotte area due to some sort of rudder area failure (they think) resulting in fast water ingress. I'm assuming the Jeanneau you speak of was the Turkish couple cruising through Indonesia? I'm not sure why it failed, I know them.

The rudder thing is often a maintenance issue that most dont take seriously, I dropped my 20 year old rudder in Trinidad and found to much crevice corrosion in the shaft therefore I replaced the whole rudder. Most never drop their rudders. I've seen a number fail, other than whale strike etc I believe most rudder issues are completely avoidable. It's often age related.

Even steel boats can fail catostraphically if not maintained well, I've been on steel boats that arent fit for bay cruising, rust never sleeps, although well maintained I believe they are great.

Regarding rigging , this is generally an age issue, not a design issue. Using a Tayana as an example again, one lost its intermediate shroud while crossing the Pacific last year, my Catalina had no issues the difference was my rigging was 4 years old his was 15 years old.

Age and maintenance matter.
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Old 05-03-2021, 21:18   #98
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Another vBlue Water Boat' delusionist..
The Titanic was 'Blue Water' and look what happened to her..
OMG, yer killin' me Bro! I nominate for best retort 2021.
Thank you for ending my very expensive boat day with a hearty laugh. Like brand matters when fixing shi+?
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Old 05-03-2021, 21:53   #99
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^^^^^
Whaddya mean, guys? If someone buys the wrong boat we will absolutely crucify him here... no forgiveness, no quarter... if it's wrong, it is WRONG!

After all, we have a reputation to maintain.

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There's a Tartan guy on our dock who won't give me the time of day. <Sigh.> I bought my boat for the family and they love it. Forum opinions? Dock opinions? Meh.
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Old 06-03-2021, 05:29   #100
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Re: Beneteau, Jeanneau, Bavaria, Elan, etc. mass production boats that circumnavigate

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There's a Tartan guy on our dock who won't give me the time of day. <Sigh.> I bought my boat for the family and they love it. Forum opinions? Dock opinions? Meh.
Too bad about your neighbor. On my dock it's mostly newer, mass manufactured modern boats with a few of us oldies from the 70's and 80's and we're all great friends, helping each other and having the occasional dock barbeque. Talk and opinions about boats and sailing is frank and open between us, as it should be. And we are all better for it. Not all boats are created equal, and each has its charms and downsides.

We recently had some strong winds and surge in the marina and my neighbor's Bavaria got its gate ripped out along with about a foot of toerail. Some of the guys that are living aboard noticed it and put on some extra lines for him. When he saw the damage, he was the first to lament the poor design and build quality of the installation. Forum opinions, dock opinions are as old as sailing itself. A sailor without a strong opinion? Seriously?

And as for your other point, regarding fixing shi*. Oh, yeah, brand does matter. You know how easy it is to fix an occasional frozen seacock when they are Spartan made, silicon bronze seacocks? Just undo two nuts, take out the tapered center piece, smear a bunch of seacock grease on it and put it back in. That's it. 38 year old seacocks, probably good for anther 38 years.
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Old 06-03-2021, 05:48   #101
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Re: Beneteau, Jeanneau, Bavaria, Elan, etc. mass production boats that circumnavigate

Something I consider Is a boat with some miles and years on her. A used boat has been shaken out and usually loaded with some gear. The replacement costs for the gear onboard can often rival the boat cost and is a part of the sale. If a boat has a serious incident it should be documented and disclosed. This is where a good qualified unbiased surveyor is invaluable.
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Old 06-03-2021, 23:42   #102
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Re: Beneteau, Jeanneau, Bavaria, Elan, etc. mass production boats that circumnavigate

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Beneteau, Jeanneau, Bavaria, Elan, etc. mass production boats that circumnavigated - make thread describing Boat , type nad year of production.
I wonder how many done it - although should sink as no ''Bluewater production'' as Amel, Oyster, HR, Hylas, etc.
I wonder how many of them are here.
Not quite sure what you mean by 'blue water yachts'
Basically anything that floats and can be propelled by either sail or engine can cross an ocean.
Maybe read Fred Rebel to put your dream into perspective.
What's the point of your enquiry?
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Old 07-03-2021, 01:39   #103
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Re: Beneteau, Jeanneau, Bavaria, Elan, etc. mass production boats that circumnavigate

Most recent episode of Project Atticus goes through a decent amount of detail and commentary from others on attributes for an open ocean boat. At some point, one of the commentators notes that many production boats do indeed make a lot of crossings - he guesses Beneteaus likely have more circumnavigation than any other brand. But he prefers classic blue water designs that slice through heavy seas in a more comfortable manner. He also observes the value of a well supported rudder. In short, my takeaway was you can certainly circumnavigate in many boats, but some designs are much better suited.

It's good commentary including a couple cameo appearances from Lyn Pardey and Nigel Calder

https://youtu.be/iNsb-Evlsco

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Old 08-03-2021, 00:13   #104
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Re: Beneteau, Jeanneau, Bavaria, Elan, etc. mass production boats that circumnavigate

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Not quite sure what you mean by 'blue water yachts'
Basically anything that floats and can be propelled by either sail or engine can cross an ocean.
Maybe read Fred Rebel to put your dream into perspective.
What's the point of your enquiry?
when you read posts, even on this forum, many users refuse production boats to be called ''real blue water'' yachts as for such enabling definition, may deserve only yachts made custom, with low number of hulls, etc. I am sure you know what I mean. People crossing or circumnavigation in such mass production boats and considered lost before they even left. So I would have this topic filled with posts from these ''lost sailors'' about their boats.
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Old 11-03-2021, 20:11   #105
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Re: Beneteau, Jeanneau, Bavaria, Elan, etc. mass production boats that circumnavigate

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Into every life a little rain must fall..
I detest airports and planes however its something I have to suffer if I want delivery work.
Get a better partner..
Admiral.. do women actually Like bring addressed like this.???
I only speak for myself, but no, I would not put up with being addressed like that. It comes across to me as quite condescending in that it is an empty title that suggests it was given to “shut her up”. Perhaps it is used in different ways in different partnerships, but as a future captain of my own boat, I do not plan to call my partner an admiral. Thank you for catching that and questioning it. It feels really great to see someone speak up and look deeper into what might be called old-fashioned language with a negative undertone.
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