50ft+ Hanse, Beneteau, etc slamming?

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by MicHughV

yep, never thought I'd be a fan of the Beneteau open transom feature either, but I've come to love it. I was concerned about a stern wave climbing aboard, but the transom is wide and flat, it typically rises above the frothy stuff..

And even if you do take a wave into the cockpit, it just needs to handle it for a short time, as the cockpit will drain quickly after, rather than being full for a minute or 2.

[SteveSadler]

There's a simple cure for pounding, don't go to weather. Some boats go to weather really well like modern flat bottom boats, others don't, like full keel heavy displacement ones. The difference is, if your destination lies upwind, some boats either can't get there, or will take several times longer. Neither boat will be comfortable, I'll take the fast one.

[MicHughV]

I think there has to be some clarity here made as to what constitutes a pounding..
Under basic "normal" sailing conditions, the Beneteau, in my humble opinion, sails to windward like a champ. Same could probably be said for many other sailboats.

When the wind picks up to the point where I have to take in a reef, and the waves are larger, or more closely spaced, my personal tendency is to bear off a tad, to gain more power, hence more speed....and, again, in my opinion, more comfort.
True, this might mean a slightly longer day, as my course made good, will suffer....but the ride is quite a bit more comfortable. At the end of the day, you will travel further, but also faster, and likely will get to your destination just as quick as a boat bashing hard against it.

Pounding to me, is when one has a target destination and is trying to make a beeline for it. On occasion, I have had to do this, this invariably means main sheeted in tight, jib furled, and engine on, and it becomes a slug fest as you are basically headed right into it.

Under these conditions, I think most any sailboat will struggle, as invariably, your forward speed will be severely reduced as you climb over each wave. It becomes time to just suck it in in and deal with it.

[mglonnro]

Originally Posted by MicHughV

I think there has to be some clarity here made as to what constitutes a pounding..
Under basic "normal" sailing conditions, the Beneteau, in my humble opinion, sails to windward like a champ. Same could probably be said for many other sailboats.

When the wind picks up to the point where I have to take in a reef, and the waves are larger, or more closely spaced, my personal tendency is to bear off a tad, to gain more power, hence more speed....and, again, in my opinion, more comfort.
True, this might mean a slightly longer day, as my course made good, will suffer....but the ride is quite a bit more comfortable. At the end of the day, you will travel further, but also faster, and likely will get to your destination just as quick as a boat bashing hard against it.

Pounding to me, is when one has a target destination and is trying to make a beeline for it. On occasion, I have had to do this, this invariably means main sheeted in tight, jib furled, and engine on, and it becomes a slug fest as you are basically headed right into it.

Under these conditions, I think most any sailboat will struggle, as invariably, your forward speed will be severely reduced as you climb over each wave. It becomes time to just suck it in in and deal with it.

Yes!

I think it is characteristic of our domain that we don't have very precise definitions of each and every word. Pounding, slamming, slapping, don't know.

I think, as you do re Beneteau, that our Hanse 388 did a good job upwind, but there was quite a bit of slamming. Maybe not more than with the Dehler 34 or the IMX-38, but I don't know. I'm almost sure, though, that hull shape plays a part in the equation.

I also think (hope that) modern, industrially built 50-footers are designed to take the beating. I guess they have to be, according to the CE specs? But are they even less comfortable doing that than let's say twenty years ago? And/or are we as sailors avoiding it even more than then?

I've never thought much about it before. In the Finnish archipelago/coastal areas, much of the sailing is upwind. If you want to get down towards Denmark, the prevailing wind is coming from that direction. Our sailboats were (and I assume: are) designed to do just that.

Only now, thinking about these huge 50-60 ft lovely window-filled and airy apartments bashing on and around the waves, I'm wondering whether I in fact should be more worried about it?

It's unfortunate that we don't have any well-organized accident/incident follow-up systems in use. There's more and more knowledge about slamming, though, I assume, but I don't know how much of let's say IMOCA design knowledge is migrated into modern production boats. Or how quickly that would be happening in any case.

[Yellowtulip]

Originally Posted by SteveSadler

There's a simple cure for pounding, don't go to weather. Some boats go to weather really well like modern flat bottom boats, others don't, like full keel heavy displacement ones. The difference is, if your destination lies upwind, some boats either can't get there, or will take several times longer. Neither boat will be comfortable, I'll take the fast one.

Are you distinguishing pounding from slamming or are do you consider them synonyms? I tend to think of upwind as pounding, like you, but I’ve sailed on a boat that flew off every wave and slammed into the trough on a broad reach in a F7. I should add, I didn’t particularly mind it, even after many hours. We were going fast. I did wonder about the rig occasionally.

[rjwdoc]

Beating into anything more than 20kt apparent wind in open ocean is no fun with ever present pounding. I have had some damage to the faux ceiling panels. Never any hull damage. My only sailing experience is through production boats ownership of B and J brand. I wish i could afford an Oyster or a Swan🤨

[MicHughV]

I presume this topic means to discuss monohull pounding...
But switch gears for a minute...and let's talk Cats...then we can seriously discuss pounding.

[mglonnro]

Originally Posted by MicHughV

I presume this topic means to discuss monohull pounding...
But switch gears for a minute...and let's talk Cats...then we can seriously discuss pounding.

Yes! That would be interesting as well! There's a proud Outremer 55L owner here who, if I remember correctly, respectfully said the sailing with their boat is great in all wind directions.

How about these boats going (as) upwind (as they may go) in 20 kts true?

[MicHughV]

well, I've sailed on a few cats and tri's...the bridge deck and high hulls gets an awful lot of wave abuse....besides the bridge deck...not all, but most cats are of the charter boat variety, with topsides as tall as a man standing on the dock, not to mention a cockpit 10' up in the air...almost impossible to tack one without engine help....waves just slap you around like a toy....

[Kd9truck]

Originally Posted by malbert73

Bavaria Vision 46 (maybe 2017-8 model) on charter in BVI pre Irma. Single rudder and very broad stern so at significant heel upwind the rudder risked stalling, and seemed to sail best upwind at 10-15 deg of heel max. At that heel angle, the bottom of hull forward slammed and everything inside was vibrating and shuddering up forward. I’m not sure I would feel comfortable with that offshore though I’m sure it would be fine for some time

Sorry but that experience sounds like you had to much sail up, that’s not the boat that’s the skipper, falling off , changing the wind angle would also stop the rounding up as you termed “stalling” scenario, I could be wrong, I was not there.
Cheers.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by mglonnro

Yes! That would be interesting as well! There's a proud Outremer 55L owner here who, if I remember correctly, respectfully said the sailing with their boat is great in all wind directions.



How about these boats going (as) upwind (as they may go) in 20 kts true?

We recently completed a 1500 mile passage that had 2 days of hard reaching (TWS 30-35 knots @ 90* TWA), 3 days of medium downwind (TWS 10-15 knots @ 160* TWA), 2 days of hard upwind (TWS 20-30 knots @ 45* TWA), and 1 day of motoring in near calm. The most pleasant time for life on board was the downwind, though the sailing was a bit frustrating.

Upwind (and reaching) pounding consists mainly of wave hits under the bridgedeck - anything from light slaps from the bow waves to structure-shaking hits from wave peaks. We have a liquor cabinet in the base of our salon table and we wrap the bottles in towels to keep the glass intact and spirits in.

As for the hulls, even though they are narrow and have semicircular plan shape there are still significant impacts when one or both hulls come crashing down into a trough. It’s slightly better when they spear into the next wave, but you still feel the impact and can see the rig flex. But in terms of boat shaking impact - that’s almost exclusively due to bridgedeck hits. And note that we have a relatively short and high bridgedeck with large trampolines and lots of hull behind the rear beam.

As someone pointed out, not as bad in the cockpit as inside where you hear the noises of the boat working. Our primary sleeping berths are in the aft hull adjacent to the cockpit (which in our boat is well forward of the sterns) so they’re quite comfortable, but a passage crew once coined the forward v-berth the airpoints cabin as they spent more time in the air than on the mattress.

The impacts and noise are very much speed related - 9-10 knots is hard on the humans, while 7-8 knots is sustainable long term and 5-6 knots is downright calm even in big seas and wind. The angle doesn’t make much difference at all. I expect this is similar for most relatively light cats and monos.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Kd9truck

Sorry but that experience sounds like you had to much sail up, that’s not the boat that’s the skipper, falling off , changing the wind angle would also stop the rounding up as you termed “stalling” scenario, I could be wrong, I was not there.
Cheers.

He didn't say that the rudder was stalling, or that they were rounding up, only that it "risked" stalling.

But my thought was that they were feathering upwind, to keep the angle of heel at 10-15 degrees, which will exacerbate pounding because it is more directly into the wind.

I would suggest reduced sail and bear off.

But, I wasn't there either.

[mglonnro]

Originally Posted by fxykty

We recently completed a 1500 mile passage that had 2 days of hard reaching (TWS 30-35 knots @ 90* TWA), 3 days of medium downwind (TWS 10-15 knots @ 160* TWA), 2 days of hard upwind (TWS 20-30 knots @ 45* TWA), and 1 day of motoring in near calm. The most pleasant time for life on board was the downwind, though the sailing was a bit frustrating.

Upwind (and reaching) pounding consists mainly of wave hits under the bridgedeck - anything from light slaps from the bow waves to structure-shaking hits from wave peaks. We have a liquor cabinet in the base of our salon table and we wrap the bottles in towels to keep the glass intact and spirits in.

As for the hulls, even though they are narrow and have semicircular plan shape there are still significant impacts when one or both hulls come crashing down into a trough. It’s slightly better when they spear into the next wave, but you still feel the impact and can see the rig flex. But in terms of boat shaking impact - that’s almost exclusively due to bridgedeck hits. And note that we have a relatively short and high bridgedeck with large trampolines and lots of hull behind the rear beam.

As someone pointed out, not as bad in the cockpit as inside where you hear the noises of the boat working. Our primary sleeping berths are in the aft hull adjacent to the cockpit (which in our boat is well forward of the sterns) so they’re quite comfortable, but a passage crew once coined the forward v-berth the airpoints cabin as they spent more time in the air than on the mattress.

The impacts and noise are very much speed related - 9-10 knots is hard on the humans, while 7-8 knots is sustainable long term and 5-6 knots is downright calm even in big seas and wind. The angle doesn’t make much difference at all. I expect this is similar for most relatively light cats and monos.

Thank you so much for this! I was hoping you'd find the thread and comment.

[Dirk01]

Originally Posted by mglonnro

Cheers,

I'm really interested in hearing from people sailing the bigger recent years Hanses, Beneteaus, Jeanneaus upwind in fresh offshore conditions. Is it enjoyable? Do you do it much?

My first deep dive into offshore upwind sailing was as a crew member on an X-Yachts IMX-38 from Bergen to Shetland in the early 2000s. We were going upwind with more than 40 knots of true wind, and it was quite the experience. If I remember it correctly, the slamming "explosions" were substantial, and walking away from that safe and sound, I realized these boats were actually designed to take _a lot_ of beating without being damaged.

How about today? Are you comfortably crashing into 25-30 knots of headwind and waves with your Hanse 575, Beneteau Oceanis 50+, Jeanneau 50+ sailboats?

I did some transfers with SO54, Bav 50 & 55 in 20-25kts (head)wind condition. 3.0 m waves in the atlantic are equal to 1.5m in the Med. When she was slaming (to much), we changed the course (most times just a bit) and adjust the sails (sometimes reefing a bit more). Better to have a nice sailing than burden the boat (and the rigg!). The Med is more of a problem than the Atlantic (due to the steeper waves). If there are steeper waves at all(Golf du Lion down to Sicily). Sailing in 8-9Bft. northwards up the Adria (this wind is called Bora) was pure fun (even it was dark, cold and sometimes blowing snow). No fetch no wave.
In conclusion - it's never a pleasure to go into steep waves or slaming.

[LittleWing77]

Originally Posted by Na Mara

My heavy weather experience is on the Atlantic coast of Scotland and Ireland as well as in the Northsea. I am well aware of the difference between atlantic rollers and what these become as they enter shoal and tidal waters.

Its precisely because handholds are useless (who here can hold their entire body weight plus additional acceleration forces on one hand?) that true bluewater cruisers do not rely on handholds for crew safety. Move around below on a blue water boat and you will find you are never further than a couple of feet from a surface you can brace your shoulder or your bum against. If you are on a boat where you have to crawl on the floor to safely move around the interior in serious weather, then you aren't on a bluewater boat.

Modern light, beamy hulls slam badly to windward, so badly that they ultimately can't make way and have to bear off. I've had a boat like this. My Hanse 370e would have to bear off in the kind of sea state you get in coastal waters in Force 5. To me that is just unacceptable in a serious cruising boat and I sold her primarily because of this behaviour. She sailed like a witch downwind and on a beam reach, but her light displacement, soft U-section bow and large beam seriously impacted windward performance in heavy seas. A bluewater boat is one that will perform well no matter the conditions. It's one that will get you off a lee shore in a gale. My previous boat couldn't do that, not even with its little engine helping out, my present boat will do it under engine or under sail. The difference IS the hull shape. The present boat has V-forward sections, long overhang, low windage, moderate beam, moderate displacement and balanced hull form, the last boat had a U-forward sections, plumb bow, high windage, wide beam, light displacement and a delta planform.

That delta planform, which is so common these days, is fantastic for surfing downwind (I remember a memorable trip in 45kn winds on my Hanse where we sped past Helsingör, Denmark at 12 kns average), but it actually increases the tendency for broaching and rounding up. That buoyant stern rises quickly to an approaching breaking sea, while the relatively less buoyant fine entry bow dives for the sea floor. Not only does this increase the tendency to broach, but it also makes the foredeck a wet and dangerous place. Again a memorable night on my Hanse when the shackle on the tack of the foresail failed in Force 8 in the North Sea and I had to go up there and lash the tack down comes to mind. I spent the best part of an hour partially submerged in the North Sea.

Finally, one of the lessons I have learned in my 35 years sailing many different type of cruisers is that there is a difference between top speed and passagemaking speed. A bluewater boat will make steady progress over a wider range of conditions than its coastal counterpart while the latter will leave the former in the dust in ideal conditions.

Ultimately, what I have found is that I passage-planned on 6 knots when I had my Hanse. I still passage plan on 6 knots in my Regina. These are boats with similar LWLs and sail areas, but where the Regina has almost twice the displacement of the Hanse. My Regina would never make 12 kts average boat speed like my Hanse did that one time, but then again, my Regina would have sailed me to weather that time I got caught in Loch Fyne with a Force 6 up the loch and the short sharp seas completely stopped forward progress and forced us to seek shelter at Tarbert on the Mull. Yes, the speed to avoid weather is valuable, but sometimes the safest path is through - then I know which boat I would rather have under me.

Mglonnro - a little late, but just read Na Mara's post on the What EXACTLY is a Bluewater Boat? thread (WingRyder) https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...at-208582.html this morning - Post #322.

I figured you would find this of particular interest.

Warmly,
LittleWing77