Pearson 26 extreme heel in a gust

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by captn_rob

Is it possible for a P26 to get knocked down in 15 knot winds? That is what it felt like we were headed for.

It sounds to me like you have a strong fear of what you call a "knock down". I think of that term as meaning suddenly heeled over so that the boat is no longer sailing or responsive to the helm. Maybe it will be heeled over up to 90 degrees. It does not mean "sinking" or tipping over. As long as nobody falls overboard it is not the end of the world. That Pearson, even if "knocked down", will stand up again as soon as the gust passes or the sails no longer hold the wind.

Not that you should not avoid knock downs. You should. Here are some precautions, as others have noted, for dealing with these "knock down" conditions.

• Now that you know the area, from a sailor's point of view, a reef in the main is a good idea.
• Being ready to release the mainsheet is also a good idea.
• If you have another person on the mainsheet, warn them ahead of time, "If I say dump the main, you let that out, all the way, OK?" (make sure there is a knot in the end, so you don't lose it entirely)
• Warn your passengers ahead of time, "If we tip suddenly you hang on , OK?"
• Yes, flatter sails in stronger wind is good, and ease the vang to allow some air to spill out the top of the main
• Finally, on my boat, when that gust comes, I bear off onto a broad reach (just don't go so far that you jibe.) The boat will stand up and accelerate. Now that part is fun.

[Don C L]

I used to think a big genoa was good for going upwind, since I saw all the old photos of CCA boats like mine carrying them and heeled way over in old black and white photos. They looked so cool and dramatic, they must be going faster, right? At least with my little CCA boat, it just doesn't pan out, when pointing high. Lots of heel, more drag, less drive and more leeway. BUT on a reach, even fairly close, the bigger genoa is fantastic. So now I'd venture to say most boats don't really do well with more than a 110 upwind unless it's a really high performance jib AND main AND hull.
The thing about heeling is that the rudder's effectiveness drops off (and the strain on it piles up) as you heel more and the boat really wants to round up. It is harder to get a boat like mine to head off, but yours, with a narrow fin keel and spade rudder will have better luck. I'd still just be ready to pop the mainsheet if it is just for a gust, more than that it's time to get up and reef.

[Suijin]

It depends on the boat but generally speaking anything over 20 degrees is counter productive. The boat is over powered. Yes your GPS says 7 knots but you’ll have considerable leeway that can be difficult to perceive. Next time you’re ripping along with the boat on its ear look behind you. You’re wake curling up to windward is telling you something important.

In keelboat racing you have a full inventory of jibs, at least three for windward work. The #1 is a deck sweeping 150% monster, used in winds up to say 12 knots. Your #2 is smaller, probably 120-130%, and your #3, or “blade” probably 100-110%. It’s not uncommon to use several different jibs during the course of a day of racing as conditions change. You want power, but you want the boat to “stay on its feet” or you’ll just see everyone out-pointing you and it’s game over. It’s also why when the forecast is for 20 knots on race day every one is calling around for extra crew. Weight on the rail so you can keep the boat up.

When I bought my boat the PO was very proud of the enormous 135 (comparable to a 150 given how far aft a true cutters mast is) genoa on the furler, a very expensive looking North Sails. I sailed with it for a time but it was awful... difficult to manage and easily overpowered the boat. Furling it even a slight amount turned it into a bagged out potato sack. Found the largely unused original yankee in the inventory, maybe a 110 but given it’s cut probably equivalent to a 100. Coupled with the staysail it was a revelation. Boat was faster, pointed higher, and balanced better. Took the 135 straight to the consignment store.

And in terms laying a keelboat over it takes considerably more wind to go from burying the rail to a full knockdown, and usually that’s from a strong passing gust and helm/trim error. Don’t forget the farther the boat heels over past around 30 degrees (already extreme) the sails are dumping air.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by kmahren

You've gotten lot's of replies.... here's my 2 cents...


Popping the main (letting it out quickly) is the fastest way to right the boat and additionally you stay on course... rounding out into the wind takes a lot longer and scarier and at first accentuates the heeling, and takes you off course.... again, my 2 cents....

Another good way is to watch the water in front of you. When you see the gust, start heading up as you meet it or just before depending.

It's a racer thing. Always try to keep your boat at the same angle of heel regardless of the wind

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by Suijin

Jim. Either you need glasses or I need better ones. That Hood picture looks about the same. The clew on my “yankee”, identical to the one in the photo I posted, is easily 12’ off the deck when furled out and trimmed in. You are talking about the clew and not the tack, right?

That said, I did hear another Valiant owner refer to it as a “jib topsail” so perhaps that is the correct name. I’ll investigate, but I would think a topsail would not have a tack at deck level or close to it.

Well, dammit, you're right! I looked again and more carefully at the pic you posted... I had failed to see the yankee's clew and was seeing the clew of the staysail instead.

My apologies for the disagreement... all my fault.

Jim

PS re glasses... now that my macular degeneration is under control, I may be able to get my cataracts removed...

[Thumbs Up]

So far Dockhead has given the only good advice. You need to keep the sails flat. From the video it looks like you need to tension your jib halyard more. Sometimes you need to re tension halyards after a bit because they can slip. Sure you can dump the mainsheet as a last resort but the better advice (if you are sailing hard on the wind) is to keep it very tight (as tight as you can get it). This will not only flatten the main but the foresail too since it can reduce sag in the headstay. Tighten the outhaul too and if you have an adjustable backstay, tighten that. When you get a gust, dump the traveler. Keep an eye on those telltales and windex too because with a gust there could be a change in wind direction. In a strong gust you can always pinch a little (sail to close to the wind) it will slow you down but is way more comfortable. You also need to test out your reefing setup beforehand to make sure that the sail tensions right because if you end up with a baggy sail shape it can defeat the purpose.

[sail4evr]

I haven't read through all the posts so excuse me if I am repeating someone else. In gusty conditions you will see the gust coming across the water. Ripples will take on a darker color and in 10 -15 kn you will always see the footprint of the gust. In 15-20 when whitecaps start forming you will again see the footprint of more whitecaps coming. When you see the gusts coming get the main sheet into your hand, even take it out of the jam cleat so all you have to do is ease and if you need to, god forbid, blow it, as in let the main sheet go, the boat will stand up straight and of course immediately start trimming it back in to regain control and regain appropriate heal.
If you were racing, they would say round up in the gusts and then fall off as the gust passes. Something you can work up to. :-
Joe
Sea Of Love
L440 BVI

[cal40john]

Originally Posted by thomm225

If you had bad weather helm going to the NW, you probably should have unfurled the jib/genoa a bit

Also, with your displacement and waterline, it appears you should have pretty much left the CS22 way behind after the wind and waves increased same as you did in light air. Pearson 26 PHRF: 210; CS 22 PHRF: 249. http://solovalcour.com/doc/PHRF.pdf

But it isn't easy at first trying to figure all that out in heavier conditions when you are just starting out

Many of the boats I've sailed, fin keel, relatively flat bottom, masthead jib, weather helm due to heeling is the dominant factor when overpowered, that is heeling more than around 20 degrees. Adding sail area even the genoa makes the boat heel more and makes the weather helm worse on most of the boats I've sailed.

Since the OP is talking about gusty conditions with lots of weather helm when the boat heels too far, reducing sail area, preferably the main, but even the genoa I think would be more effective.

The maiden voyage on my Cal 40 I unrolled the genoa and didn't put up the main as there were only a few miles until I had to go into the locks. The wind came up on a close reach and before the toe rail would go under the boat would round up.

No I don't have excessive, no more than 5 degrees of helm until I'm heeling more than 15 degrees with main and jib up.

[captn_rob]

As many of you suggested I took a “getting to know the boat” cruise yesterday. Perfect day for it with 10 – 15 knot winds from the SW. I was single-handing it so I would have no one but myself to worry about. Started out with main reefed to the first point (of 2) and was beating to windward in a narrow channel for the first few miles. Getting lots of tacking practice! Wind slacked off to around 9-10 knots with occasional gusts to 13 so I shook out the reef. Spent most of the day close hauled with the wind at 30 degrees apparent. About 2:30 I had to turn back and did the opposite. Broad reach at 120 degrees apparent and practiced single-handed controlled gybes as I sailed back up the river. Wind picked up to 15 – 20 knots as I entered the bay where my mooring is.

Much more comfortable and confident with her now.

[doug1957]

Good for you! We were in Eastern Casco on Sunday too. An interesting day. Noticed with the wind direction (at least when we were out there), there was lots of funneling from the mouth of the New Meadows River and up, then much less as it opened into the bay, then a lot more as we made our was into Quahog Bay to anchor overnight. So lots of varied conditions for practice!

[captn_rob]

Originally Posted by doug1957

Good for you! We were in Eastern Casco on Sunday too. An interesting day. Noticed with the wind direction (at least when we were out there), there was lots of funneling from the mouth of the New Meadows River and up, then much less as it opened into the bay, then a lot more as we made our was into Quahog Bay to anchor overnight. So lots of varied conditions for practice!

Yeah I noticed that too . The funneling effect in the river mouth can be tricky as mentioned in my original post.

Sunday was really a great day for sailing all around. Good wind but not a lot of sea swell - which is not common when we have a SW wind around here!

[Dghyatt]

Captain Rob. I have been sailing on my Pearson 26 for not quite a decade. You will find the P26 will take care of, you but she has some surprises. The first time I did the heal to the gunnels I did not anticipate the wind around the break walls in my home port. Yes I was not ready on the main sheet. Mine is on a jam cleat if I give it a quick upward tug I can release the main. Other that that, hold on, put your feet accross the cockpit you will be standing on the opposite seats side wall. I have headed up, but I don’t recommend it, dump the main, also get the main reefed any thing near 15. She will go just as fast reefed at 15 and sail flatter. My wife first mate really hates the heeling so she knows all about dumping the main sheet. Me I am terrible I will ride the gunnel all day long heeled over. Another thing Rob you must be carefull with the 26 she will with a large head sail out, mines a hank on, the boat will round down wind or broach in the blink of an eye if you are surfing down the wives and a big gust hits your large head sail. She will turn 90 degrees down wind in the blink of an eye as the rudder loses power and the head sail turns you down wind. This happens when your way over canvassed on the head sail. She will go like crazy when over canvased, but be ready and hang on. Down size the head sail and get the main reefed any where near 15 knots wind speed and keep the heel under 20 degrees and take easy it easy. If got an experienced crew leave her over canvassed some and hang on she pass some pretty fancy 30 foot Beneteau or other brands and walk away from them been there done that. The P26 with her iron keel in my opinion is really an underapppreciated jewel of a boat. Learn to scull her backwards by spinning the rudder backwards and flipping the tiller over it really comes in handy in close docking situations. Happy sailing Captain Rob

[Suijin]

Originally Posted by thomm225

Also, with your displacement and waterline, it appears you should have pretty much left the CS22 way behind after the wind and waves increased same as you did in light air. Pearson 26 PHRF: 210; CS 22 PHRF: 249. http://solovalcour.com/doc/PHRF.pdf

PHRF ratings should be taken with a grain of salt. First of all, they are all around averages for all points of sail. A sport boat that planes off the wind will have a stupidly low rating, and as a result will get clobbered in light air or going to windward in heavy air without enough weight on the rail.

The CS is probably not rated with a kite while the Pearson probably is. Dunno. And then there is condition of the sails, who was managing weight better, and who was simply sailing better.

[Jim Cate]

The P26 with her iron keel in my opinion is really an underapppreciated jewel of a boat.

To say this after your description of all the evil handling characteristics of your P26 seems odd.

Jim

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Suijin

PHRF ratings should be taken with a grain of salt. First of all, they are all around averages for all points of sail. A sport boat that planes off the wind will have a stupidly low rating, and as a result will get clobbered in light air or going to windward in heavy air without enough weight on the rail.

The CS is probably not rated with a kite while the Pearson probably is. Dunno. And then there is condition of the sails, who was managing weight better, and who was simply sailing better.

Keep dreaming.

The Pearson 26 would have rolled over the CS22 with a Skipper with any experience.

It would have been a non issue especially when the wind got up.

It would probably be best for you to stick with crewing on a racing boat rather than attempting to be the Skipper

Speaking of gusts of 15 knots or better, consider how you would handle that on a boat that weighs 300 lbs with at least the same sail area as the 5400 lb Pearson 26. And, btw, we race beach cats (buoy race) until the wind stays above 21 knots for 5 minutes constant before they call it.

Distance racing you just keep going.

Also there are no reef points on beach cat sails. You handle big winds in other ways

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSYCz7gePBU

Oops, almost forgot. There's another aspect to beach cat racing at times and that is getting off the freaking beach!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TyFMTh1K7E8