Yet another tragic loss?

[hpeer]

Jim,

My Yanmar 4JH REQUIRES electricity to run. And that is a 2006 build. I think newer engines are much more likely to require electricity for the injection pump and computer. Required to meet emission standards.

My Volvo MD7 requires air and fuel only, and will hand start.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by hpeer

Jim,

My Yanmar 4JH REQUIRES electricity to run. And that is a 2006 build. I think newer engines are much more likely to require electricity for the injection pump and computer. Required to meet emission standards.

My Volvo MD7 requires air and fuel only, and will hand start.

Interesting! And not to my liking, either. I'm glad my Kubota tractor engine thrives on air and fuel without the intervention of Reddy Kilowatt!

So, I wonder if my suspicions about the cause of the engine failure are correct?

Jim

[slowpoker]

Going back and looking at pictures on post #60 here, take a good look and see that those nuts and washers, on each bolt shown, would give a precise indication of the thickness of the fiberglass where the keel was bolted onto. That surface shows to be fiberglass by looking at the chopped strands still attached by glue to the detached keel.
Visually estimate the distance from the 'footprint' or bolting face of the actual keel to the face of where the washers are..... Not much. Maybe the same as the diameter of those bolts. Therefore, I would say, it's not very thick where that keel bolted to the vessel, even when 'glued' and bolted in place.
If that same keel was only bolted, with the same washers and spacing, to a carbon steel of that thickness and it extended at least 4 times the width of the keel on each side of the row of bolts, or it was bolted to an all steel hull, then yes, it would have been very strong, but not for FRP.
If we could see the damage to where the keel was once bolted, you probably would see that the washers ripped right through that very thin keel base. Probably there would be a row of perforations that follow where the bolts went through. Those bolts showing on the pictures are not bent or even scratched.
The bolts and washers just sailed on out, undisturbed, due to the long moment arm of the depth of that keel suddenly and violently bending on such an inadequate surface, thin in width and in thickness and weak because of the strength of FRP, although the vessel was not designed to take such punishment; only designed to hold the keel in place in a regular grounding when the vessel is supported by partial buoyancy, or to take an inline grounding blow or two and maybe showing a 'smile' at the leading joint.
Fin keels do sail faster and tack and turn on a boat's length, but... a full keel vessel will give you more safety when aground, and perhaps even a more comfortable sea motion when the water gets lumpy but sail a bit slower and takes a bit of practice to tack properly.
Very unfortunate for all affected by this tragedy.

[hpeer]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Interesting! And not to my liking, either. I'm glad my Kubota tractor engine thrives on air and fuel without the intervention of Reddy Kilowatt!

So, I wonder if my suspicions about the cause of the engine failure are correct?

Jim

I would not be surprised. I spoke to a gentleman earlier this year who lost a boat of Hatteras a year ago. Caught in a gale, set a drogue, took a big sea that knocked him down, that killed the engine. He didn't know why the engine quit but he lost all power. Just prior to the knock down he had sent a blind position report on SSB. Someone heard it and took it as a Mayday. CG found him the next day and lifted him off.

My suspission there was some water ingress killed power and thus the engine.

It seems a vulnerability we are destined to have with all new motors.

[double u]

finkeels can be strongly mounted too: look at the Salona & x-yachts grids!

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by double u

finkeels can be strongly mounted too: look at the Salona & x-yachts grids!

True.. but its also true that they cost a bit more than the equivalent sized Bavaria..

[double u]

the salona not so much (the x of course!)
what I seem to see though: people want the largest boat for their money! & of course a Bav for 100.000€ is a bit longer than a Salona (not to speak of an x...)
of course most of us would never own a boat if we insisted on Swan- or HR quality (2b honest: their prices are to a large degree determined by brand-prestige, not only real quality...)

[robert sailor]

It's all fine and good to buy a high value,high production boat but just don't kid yourself into thinking that your getting high quality. High quality and low price don't fly in the same airspace. Accidents like this begin to give you a peak at how these boats are built and why they have a finite life span which is reflected in their resale values.
Yes they have sailed many Benni's and Bavaria's around the world and will continue to do so but just be super careful if the boat has ever been grounded as they might be a lot of things but "over built " is not one of them.

[hoppy]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

It's all fine and good to buy a high value,high production boat but just don't kid yourself into thinking that your getting high quality. High quality and low price don't fly in the same airspace. Accidents like this begin to give you a peak at how these boats are built and why they have a finite life span which is reflected in their resale values.
Yes they have sailed many Benni's and Bavaria's around the world and will continue to do so but just be super careful if the boat has ever been grounded as they might be a lot of things but "over built " is not one of them.

And how is this relevant to this thread? An Island Packet, Hallberg Rassy, Amel, Swan, Oyster etc.. are all going to be pretty much f..ked if thrown sideways onto the rocks in this sea.

It does not sound like there is any boat construction or boat choice lessons to be learnt from this tragedy, only seamanship lessons.

[hpeer]

Hoppy,

Yes and no. I agree that it sounds like a seamanship root cause. Usually is.

However, parenthetically, seeing that keel gone so cleanly does startle and rock ones confidence, especially in light of so many other incidents.

It seems pretty obvious that keel came off without a lot of provocation. I know I have hit things HARD. One incident surely would have either broken the keel or punched it through the hull. I hit a submerged piling square at 7 knots.

I have thought we should have a thread dedicated to keel design and failures. But also, and maybe more importantly, discussing what is appropriate for your personal sailing program and location.

[barnakiel]

HOW a boat disintegrates sure bears on your chances of survival. Overall stronger and lighter seems to fare better than weaker and heavier.

However, this accident was caused by a human error and only then there was also some equipment failure (I have read the engine stopped). Just mind what came first because cause and effect (where it exists, if it exists) works down the chain only.

Someone made a wrong decision. To leave the harbour in this sort of weather.

So we have the typical chain of wrong decisions leading to equipment failures leading to more wrong decisions and only somewhere out there at the very end of this chain a different boat MIGHT (or not) have made some difference.

Another tragic Volvo Penta loss? Or was it a Yanmar? C'mon, we are not having a reasonable discussion like this.

You take your boat out into the storm, you are making bets. The same applies to a steel Colin Archer full keel with a Bukh marine grade diesel and cpt. Slocum at the helm.

b.

[hoppy]

Originally Posted by hpeer

Hoppy,

Yes and no. I agree that it sounds like a seamanship root cause. Usually is.

However, parenthetically, seeing that keel gone so cleanly does startle and rock ones confidence, especially in light of so many other incidents.

It seems pretty obvious that keel came off without a lot of provocation. I know I have hit things HARD. One incident surely would have either broken the keel or punched it through the hull. I hit a submerged piling square at 7 knots.

I have thought we should have a thread dedicated to keel design and failures. But also, and maybe more importantly, discussing what is appropriate for your personal sailing program and location.

Given the popularity of Bavaria's in charter markets, I'm pretty sure it's safe to say that their keel's generally don't fall off when hitting a rock or similar a 7 knots. The repair bill afterwards, I don't know, but I'm betting stronger built boats may only require an inspection and an anti fouling touch up whilst weaker may require some engineering work.

That is VERY different to a yacht being picked up by a wave and thrown sideways onto the rocks.

[hoppy]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

However, this accident was caused by a human error and only then there was also some equipment failure (I have read the engine stopped). Just mind what came first because cause and effect (where it exists, if it exists) works down the chain only.

I also read that the wave broke over the boat flooding the engine also washed the 4 overboard.

That the engine failed because of flooding (allegedly) can also be attributed to seamanship. If the washboards were fitted and the hatch closed, then minimal water would have entered the cabin.....


There is nothing more really to discuss about this incident other than adding condolences, unless some new facts come to light.

[double u]

the keel should not have failed in this way, period.
type of stranding, weather,...fatalities incurred, faulty seamanship, no tethers,...have no bearing on this fact. no keel should just pull a piece of fibreglass it's own footprint's size out of a hull & then fall off, no matter what forces etc are involved.
What's next: the bolts pulling out of the casting or the washers through the laminate?
Of course ANY keel can fail, but a well engineered one would show much more substantial & larger area damage to the hull.
It is like when a winch gets pulled out of the deck & we see only normal washers were used, no large backing plate being visible, we'd say "obviously it was overloaded"

[hpeer]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

HOW a boat disintegrates sure bears on your chances of survival. Overall stronger and lighter seems to fare better than weaker and heavier.

However, this accident was caused by a human error and only then there was also some equipment failure (I have read the engine stopped). Just mind what came first because cause and effect (where it exists, if it exists) works down the chain only.

Someone made a wrong decision. To leave the harbour in this sort of weather.

So we have the typical chain of wrong decisions leading to equipment failures leading to more wrong decisions and only somewhere out there at the very end of this chain a different boat MIGHT (or not) have made some difference.

Another tragic Volvo Penta loss? Or was it a Yanmar? C'mon, we are not having a reasonable discussion like this.

You take your boat out into the storm, you are making bets. The same applies to a steel Colin Archer full keel with a Bukh marine grade diesel and cpt. Slocum at the helm.

b.

Which is why I suggested a separate thread.