Hardware installation for the headsail tack.

[littledevil]

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Hi. Finished installing my removable inner stay. I have few qoestion though. I can attached the tack to the existing hardware which secures the stay to the deck, but i figure it would be interfere with the adjustment procedure of turning the turnbuckle in/out while sailing, especially when the going is bit rough. I am thinking about installing a foldable pad eye just aft of the stay. Any suggestion how it should be? Just enough distance to handle the turnbuckle is what i am thinking.
Another question: As it can be in the pic. The distance between the furler and the removable stay is pretty short(18 inches=45cm) I did not get a chance to try it in real sailing yet but there seems to be no fouling between them, however i am worried if the furler would disturb the wind flow and cause turbulance, stalling the inner sail etc while pointing. I assume in certain sailing points it wouldn't matter(like down wind).
last:
To simply put, what is the effect of tack height on performance. I can make few pennants, different length for variety of conditions.
My mast is 30 feet, so lets say i have 10 feet of gale sail, should i leave the 20 feet bare wire on the top of the mast and attach the sails tack to the deck or leave some feet bare wire at the deck level as well.
Thanks in advance.

[JPA Cate]

Originally Posted by littledevil

[IMG][/IMG]

Hi. Finished installing my removable inner stay. I have few qoestion though. I can attached the tack to the existing hardware which secures the stay to the deck, but i figure it would be interfere with the adjustment procedure of turning the turnbuckle in/out while sailing, especially when the going is bit rough. I am thinking about installing a foldable pad eye just aft of the stay. Any suggestion how it should be? Just enough distance to handle the turnbuckle is what i am thinking.

I'd be tempted to shackle a snaps hackle onto the tack and tack it down on the pad eye for the inner stay.

Another question: As it can be in the pic. The distance between the furler and the removable stay is pretty short(18 inches=45cm) I did not get a chance to try it in real sailing yet but there seems to be no fouling between them, however i am worried if the furler would disturb the wind flow and cause turbulance, stalling the inner sail etc while pointing. I assume in certain sailing points it wouldn't matter(like down wind).

Not to worry, the sail will be okay.

last:
To simply put, what is the effect of tack height on performance. I can make few pennants, different length for variety of conditions.
My mast is 30 feet, so lets say i have 10 feet of gale sail, should i leave the 20 feet bare wire on the top of the mast and attach the sails tack to the deck or leave some feet bare wire at the deck level as well.
Thanks in advance.

As to the height of the tack. You will want a pennant at the foot. Raising that sail off the deck will allow the greenies to get under, unhindered. You may want to make up a few different pennants, but I wouldn't raise it any more than 2 ft.

Ann

[littledevil]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

As to the height of the tack. You will want a pennant at the foot. Raising that sail off the deck will allow the greenies to get under, unhindered. You may want to make up a few different pennants, but I wouldn't raise it any more than 2 ft.

Ann

Hi thanks. So if i understand correctly, you suggest that i should use the existing pad eye and not to install another pad eye...

[Jim Cate]

If you are going to use a pennant, say a couple of feet in length, you should add a hank or a lashing between the tack and the stay. Failing this, the tack will be hauled aft by the sheet loads and this is hard on the sail and sail shape.

IMO, with the pennant (which is a good idea) using the extant deck fitting for the tack pennant is fine, but that does not address your issue of adjusting the rigging screw under way. That process may be pretty hard to achieve... so you may need to slack the halyard whilst making the adjustment. (I am assuming your rigging screw has fold out handles, several inches in length, for making that adjustment). However, I'd think that after some initial experimentation you would not need to make under way adjustment post the initial one where you hook the stay up, and at that time the sail isn't hoisted and the screw is clear to turn.

Jim

[JPA Cate]

Originally Posted by littledevil

Hi thanks. So if i understand correctly, you suggest that i should use the existing pad eye and not to install another pad eye...

Yes, assuming the one you have has a good backing plate, etc.

And, Jim's right, you will need to help the tack not get pulled aft.

Ann

[littledevil]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

If you are going to use a pennant, say a couple of feet in length, you should add a hank or a lashing between the tack and the stay. Failing this, the tack will be hauled aft by the sheet loads and this is hard on the sail and sail shape.

IMO, with the pennant (which is a good idea) using the extant deck fitting for the tack pennant is fine, but that does not address your issue of adjusting the rigging screw under way. That process may be pretty hard to achieve... so you may need to slack the halyard whilst making the adjustment. (I am assuming your rigging screw has fold out handles, several inches in length, for making that adjustment). However, I'd think that after some initial experimentation you would not need to make under way adjustment post the initial one where you hook the stay up, and at that time the sail isn't hoisted and the screw is clear to turn.

Jim

That is right too. After some time sailing with this set up, i should be able to figure out how many turns it takes to properly tension to stay and do it while the sail is not hoisted. I think i can somehow tack it to the pad eye which is already there and avoid an extra piece there. Thanks.

[meirriba]

Originally Posted by littledevil

[IMG][/IMG]

Hi. Finished installing my removable inner stay. I have few qoestion though. I can attached the tack to the existing hardware which secures the stay to the deck, but i figure it would be interfere with the adjustment procedure of turning the turnbuckle in/out while sailing, especially when the going is bit rough. I am thinking about installing a foldable pad eye just aft of the stay. Any suggestion how it should be? Just enough distance to handle the turnbuckle is what i am thinking.
Another question: As it can be in the pic. The distance between the furler and the removable stay is pretty short(18 inches=45cm) I did not get a chance to try it in real sailing yet but there seems to be no fouling between them, however i am worried if the furler would disturb the wind flow and cause turbulance, stalling the inner sail etc while pointing. I assume in certain sailing points it wouldn't matter(like down wind).
last:
To simply put, what is the effect of tack height on performance. I can make few pennants, different length for variety of conditions.
My mast is 30 feet, so lets say i have 10 feet of gale sail, should i leave the 20 feet bare wire on the top of the mast and attach the sails tack to the deck or leave some feet bare wire at the deck level as well.
Thanks in advance.

I do not understand why would you want to adjust the tension of the inner stay underway. After initial installation and adjustment I would leave it be without troubling it anymore (do you adjust your headstay length underway)?
As to the distance between stays - yes, close stays will cause problems. But I do not think you will want to sail with 2 sails together, except for short time when you replace the front one with the aft one (e.g. storm sail on the inner).
Otherwise the sails will interfere, and mostly downwind as the inner sail will blanket the front one.
You would like the tack to be as low as possible to keep centre of force low. If you raise the tack by using a pennant follow Jim's advice of putting a hank at the (high) tack to connecting it with the stay to keep the luff straight and close to the stay.
And: if possible, install separate traveler tracks for the second sail. Life will be much easier.

[ferrailleur]

Why not one pad eye for the stay and another one a couple of inches aft for the tack?

[Michael Pope]

The way you have it --IT WILL BREAK--- Take a while but it will break. The Toggle on both ends of the turnbuckle are there to prevent any any bending load being put on the threaded part ( which is vulnerable to fatigue due to the thread ) OK!
The U bolt thru the deck should be aligned with the load and provide a Toggle action for both the Forestay load and the Foresail load. I am aware that both these loads are lower in magnitude but the frequency of loading is higher. Every little wave your boat encounters gives you one load cycle. Old IOR Sparkman and Stevens Rigs used to have a stupid removable stay between the lower spreaders and the deck . stopped the mast pumping going to weather but had to be removed to Gybe the Spi. pole.. S&S sat on the right side of God in many minds (not mine) so many beautiful big boats had this abortion which would often not last a year. Then the Owner, usually a large and wealthy man ( but cheap) Would come down the dock screaming at me for replacing the broken stay (or cracked swage) Oh No you don't Pope you don,t charge me again Do it right!! !!you only replaced that this spring. The boat had only Gone to Hawaii for the Pacific Cup (Pan Am cup) then down to Sidney for the Hobart and back for a Hawaii series and back to Seattle. -- a lot of time no load on the stay-- why did it break Too many waves!! Short wire, little stretch, BOING! Became tired! Fatigued.

[zstine]

I'm assuming the inner stay is for a heavy weather jib...? I wouldn't want to shackle the tack to the same eye as the stay, because the shackle and turnbuckle jaw will scratch each other and could jam at odd angles bending the shackle resulting in failure. And a soft shackle is definitely out b/c of chafe. I would install a second eye aft of the first.

The turnbuckle pictured is not designed for easy manual release. You don't want to carry screwdrivers and pliers to the bow in 35knts and 15ft waves! Unless you intend to keep this installed all the time, I'd get the proper equipment.

The deck is not designed for high vertical loads. The load should be transferred to the hull and not via the deck & deck-hull joint (typical design sketch attached). I opted to use a large 10mm S.S. U-bolt through the bow stem w/ backing plate just above the water line, vice building a bulkhead.

If you are just using a small backing plate, you are going to have a loose stay as the deck flexes under load and you're asking for leaks and stress cracks too. I attached a picture of the folding double eye I used (Allen $60 i think). The eye you installed should have been turned 90 deg for best load carrying.

The mast generally needs support to oppose the inner stay forces or again your stay will sag under load and possibly break the mast. Running backs or check stays are typically used. Not sure what you have done in regards to mast support.

Use a pendent a foot or 2 long, depending on the clew height. You want to keep the center of effort low to minimize heel, but you don't want to catch waves.

No worries about a furled sail causing a shadow... I assume you are not intending to fly both the inner staysail at the same time as the Genny...?

[littledevil]

Originally Posted by meirriba

I do not understand why would you want to adjust the tension of the inner stay underway. After initial installation and adjustment I would leave it be without troubling it anymore (do you adjust your headstay length underway)?
As to the distance between stays - yes, close stays will cause problems. But I do not think you will want to sail with 2 sails together, except for short time when you replace the front one with the aft one (e.g. storm sail on the inner).
Otherwise the sails will interfere, and mostly downwind as the inner sail will blanket the front one.
You would like the tack to be as low as possible to keep centre of force low. If you raise the tack by using a pennant follow Jim's advice of putting a hank at the (high) tack to connecting it with the stay to keep the luff straight and close to the stay.
And: if possible, install separate traveler tracks for the second sail. Life will be much easier.

Thanks. N planning to fly 2 sails at the same time except wing and wing, both sails poled out. I did a test sail the other day and worked OK. The wind was light though. The traveler track, you mean similar to the genoa track but inboard, probably on the cabin top right. Would that be advisable to install cabin top winchess as well? I will do more sea trials and see how things works next season(before going deeper with more mods).

[littledevil]

Originally Posted by ferrailleur

Why not one pad eye for the stay and another one a couple of inches aft for the tack?

I initially thought about that but some members pointed out that using the pad eye which i have installed to tack the sail would be fine.

[littledevil]

Originally Posted by Michael Pope

The way you have it --IT WILL BREAK--- Take a while but it will break. The Toggle on both ends of the turnbuckle are there to prevent any any bending load being put on the threaded part ( which is vulnerable to fatigue due to the thread ) OK!
The U bolt thru the deck should be aligned with the load and provide a Toggle action for both the Forestay load and the Foresail load. I am aware that both these loads are lower in magnitude but the frequency of loading is higher. Every little wave your boat encounters gives you one load cycle. Old IOR Sparkman and Stevens Rigs used to have a stupid removable stay between the lower spreaders and the deck . stopped the mast pumping going to weather but had to be removed to Gybe the Spi. pole.. S&S sat on the right side of God in many minds (not mine) so many beautiful big boats had this abortion which would often not last a year. Then the Owner, usually a large and wealthy man ( but cheap) Would come down the dock screaming at me for replacing the broken stay (or cracked swage) Oh No you don't Pope you don,t charge me again Do it right!! !!you only replaced that this spring. The boat had only Gone to Hawaii for the Pacific Cup (Pan Am cup) then down to Sidney for the Hobart and back for a Hawaii series and back to Seattle. -- a lot of time no load on the stay-- why did it break Too many waves!! Short wire, little stretch, BOING! Became tired! Fatigued.

Although its pretty oversized, i am too worried about the mast pumping putting too much force on the turnbuckle and stripping the threads. I guess the first strong sailing day will be the test. Honestly, loved the way it works so if it fails, i will work on making it bombproof(like is there a way to make anything on a boat bombproof}

[littledevil]

Originally Posted by zstine

I'm assuming the inner stay is for a heavy weather jib...? I wouldn't want to shackle the tack to the same eye as the stay, because the shackle and turnbuckle jaw will scratch each other and could jam at odd angles bending the shackle resulting in failure. And a soft shackle is definitely out b/c of chafe. I would install a second eye aft of the first.

The turnbuckle pictured is not designed for easy manual release. You don't want to carry screwdrivers and pliers to the bow in 35knts and 15ft waves! Unless you intend to keep this installed all the time, I'd get the proper equipment.

The deck is not designed for high vertical loads. The load should be transferred to the hull and not via the deck & deck-hull joint (typical design sketch attached). I opted to use a large 10mm S.S. U-bolt through the bow stem w/ backing plate just above the water line, vice building a bulkhead.

If you are just using a small backing plate, you are going to have a loose stay as the deck flexes under load and you're asking for leaks and stress cracks too. I attached a picture of the folding double eye I used (Allen $60 i think). The eye you installed should have been turned 90 deg for best load carrying.

The mast generally needs support to oppose the inner stay forces or again your stay will sag under load and possibly break the mast. Running backs or check stays are typically used. Not sure what you have done in regards to mast support.

Use a pendent a foot or 2 long, depending on the clew height. You want to keep the center of effort low to minimize heel, but you don't want to catch waves.

No worries about a furled sail causing a shadow... I assume you are not intending to fly both the inner staysail at the same time as the Genny...?

Thanks, very good points. I guess i should install the single foldable eye about 1-2 inches aft of the existing deck eye and call it a day.
I agree that in a blow, it will not be very easy to set this stay using the existing turnbuckle but the other common method of using a lever was out of budget. I get some questions about the structure of my inner stay installation, perhaps its a better idea to start a new topic documenting the steps i took. I also have questions about the sail wardrobe i am trying to achive.

[littledevil]

Please also see the new thread, which includes the picture from the installations and the design thoughts i had in mind, as well as figuring out the right sails for the new purpose.