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11-02-2018, 00:35
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#106
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: All over
Posts: 6
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Re: Cruising boat for a 62 and 63 year old?.
I am also 62 and also looking for a decent semi liveaboard- I have sort of got it down to Bavaria, Beneteau or Jeanneau around the 40ft length. I need three cabins for my family and need to be able to sail it with minimal help from the helm position. Mostly coastal sailing with the odd long hop.
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11-02-2018, 18:51
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#107
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Seattle, WA
Boat: Island Packet 349
Posts: 671
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Re: Cruising boat for a 62 and 63 year old?.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtsailjt
I understand that some people don't want to deal with sails and rigging and for them a motorboat is the only good option
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Yes, about 95% of people who buy boats for recreational use and 100% of commercial users think that way.
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11-02-2018, 19:45
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#108
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Penobscot Bay, Maine
Boat: Tayana 47
Posts: 2,123
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Re: Cruising boat for a 62 and 63 year old?.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lost Horizons
Yes, about 95% of people who buy boats for recreational use and 100% of commercial users think that way.
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To get that 95% number you must have included lakes in Oklahoma but most readers of this forum are interested in cruising on the ocean so those numbers aren’t very applicable. I won’t quibble about the overall accuracy of your numbers but in Downeast Maine the vast majority of recreational boats have sails, and we have about a dozen local commercial schooners with tourists aboard that are regularly seen but I agree that the vast majority of commercial boats are not sail powered. I even contribute to your statistic because I own 3 motorboats but only 2 sailboats, and a kayak, but one of the sailboats is the only one that’s appropriate for cruising.
Again, I have nothing at all against motorboats, but for the money, regarding boats in the 35-50’ range, for those I’m interested in cruising on the ocean and tempted to do it in a motorboat, I think they would do well to take a hard look at what a capable sailboat they can buy and weigh wether it makes sense for them even if they don’t plan to do much sailing.
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11-02-2018, 20:41
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#109
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Seattle, WA
Boat: Island Packet 349
Posts: 671
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Re: Cruising boat for a 62 and 63 year old?.
95% is a number i remember from some publication. Also consistent with my own observations. There are, obviously, local variations.
The reality is that unless you are crossing an ocean, you don’t need a sailboat. The other reality, contrary to what you suggest, sailboats are inefficient at motoring due to heavy ballasts and small propellers.
I have owned three sailbosts before, have another one on order, so I am not advocating against them. It is just that most boaters’ needs are better served by powerboats.
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12-02-2018, 03:52
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#110
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Penobscot Bay, Maine
Boat: Tayana 47
Posts: 2,123
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Re: Cruising boat for a 62 and 63 year old?.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lost Horizons
95% is a number i remember from some publication. Also consistent with my own observations. There are, obviously, local variations.
The reality is that unless you are crossing an ocean, you don’t need a sailboat. The other reality, contrary to what you suggest, sailboats are inefficient at motoring due to heavy ballasts and small propellers.
I have owned three sailbosts before, have another one on order, so I am not advocating against them. It is just that most boaters’ needs are better served by powerboats.
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You seem to not understand that, just as the name suggests, this forum is for and about cruisers, and cruisers do cross oceans or travel long distances on the ocean and that can be done more efficiently and comfortably in a cruising sailboat. If the subject of this forum were “all boaters” then I’d agree that motorboats are much more numerous and appropriately so. But that’s not what this forum is about. It’s about cruising.
It’s true that the efficiency of sailboats while motoring could be improved by a larger prop or less ballast. But a typical motorboat of similar amount of living space is even less efficient because it’s engine is several times larger and its hull is wider and shorter and they typically try to travel at speeds above their lower (shorter waterline) displacement hull speed. Owners of most 40’ motorboats would be amazed by the relatively small fuel tanks that our sailboats have. Many marina fuel docks would rather not even deal with sailboaters because we buy so little fuel even though many sailboaters spend a lot of time motoring. Also, at less than displacement hull speed, the amount of ballast doesnt have a big effect on motoring efficiency but it does add both a more comfortable motion and greater safety while offshore, factors that are very important to cruisers but not so much for boaters on a lake or that only leave the dock on nice days.
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12-02-2018, 04:23
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#111
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 2
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Re: Cruising boat for a 62 and 63 year old?.
Really?... Wow!
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12-02-2018, 04:24
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#112
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 2
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Re: Cruising boat for a 62 and 63 year old?.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MunMan
Really?... Wow!
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Sorry, wrong post...
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12-02-2018, 08:04
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#113
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Florida
Boat: Scout 30
Posts: 3,112
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Re: Cruising boat for a 62 and 63 year old?.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtsailjt
You seem to not understand that, just as the name suggests, this forum is for and about cruisers, and cruisers do cross oceans or travel long distances on the ocean and that can be done more efficiently and comfortably in a cruising sailboat. If the subject of this forum were “all boaters” then I’d agree that motorboats are much more numerous and appropriately so. But that’s not what this forum is about. It’s about cruising.
It’s true that the efficiency of sailboats while motoring could be improved by a larger prop or less ballast. But a typical motorboat of similar amount of living space is even less efficient because it’s engine is several times larger and its hull is wider and shorter and they typically try to travel at speeds above their lower (shorter waterline) displacement hull speed. Owners of most 40’ motorboats would be amazed by the relatively small fuel tanks that our sailboats have. Many marina fuel docks would rather not even deal with sailboaters because we buy so little fuel even though many sailboaters spend a lot of time motoring. Also, at less than displacement hull speed, the amount of ballast doesnt have a big effect on motoring efficiency but it does add both a more comfortable motion and greater safety while offshore, factors that are very important to cruisers but not so much for boaters on a lake or that only leave the dock on nice days.
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The problem with generalizing is that you're wrong a lot of the time. You cherry pick the down sides of different powerboat designs while ignoring the attributes. The fact is there are a lot of people "cruising" in power boats and if you plan on cruising under power a boat designed for that purpose is the way to go. If you want an efficient powerboat design that uses little power but can still easily achieve hull speed when punching into a headwind they're available. In fact, efficient powerboat hull design has been around for 100+ years.
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12-02-2018, 08:16
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#114
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Aboard
Boat: Hatteras CPMY 63’
Posts: 900
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Re: Cruising boat for a 62 and 63 year old?.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtsailjt
It's sort of tough to call your 60' motoryacht a "fair comparison" with a typical 40 something foot cruising sailboat. I don't doubt that your boat, with its 50 something foot waterline is very efficient at 8 knots because that's a couple of knots below displacement hull speed. But my friends boats waterline length is about half of yours so at 8-10 knots he's forcing it through the water above its hull speed and that takes a LOT of power. That fact was driven home to me at the end of a day on his boat when I offered to share the tab at the fuel pumps, I was shocked! His motorboat, at 38' has about the same amount of living space as my 47' sailboat, and as I previously mentioned, he typically cruises at only a couple of knots faster than I do so I think it's a reasonable comparison to make. I've got 8' more feet of waterline than he does and cruise at less than hull speed where he is using brute strength to force his boat through the water at a speed that's above hull speed but well below planing speed. If he cruised at a speed that was a couple knots below his displacement hull speed, as you do on your 60' motoryacht, he wouldn't need anywhere near as big an engine or burn as much fuel as he does, but he'd also only be doing about 6 knots. For similar money and similar living space and just a slightly lower cruising speed, I think it makes sense to at least consider a longer waterline sailboat with a much smaller engine that moves through the water MUCH more efficiently than does a shorter lobster yacht with a 350 hp engine. Those extra couple of knots in cruising speed that his boat is capable of come at a VERY high cost and when winds are favorable he doesn't have the option of enjoying the silence and vibration free feeling of sailing. I understand that some people don't want to deal with sails and rigging and for them a motorboat is the only good option, but for someone considering a typical 38ish' trawler or lobster yacht, I think a 45-50' sailboat can make good sense, even if they plan to spend most of their time motoring.
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The argument that there is a "VERY high cost" to those extra knots disregards the cost of the entire sail rig including its required maintenance. As well as the fact that any sailboat suitable for a couple in their early 60's will also have diesel engine and probably a diesel generator.
One could also say that the ability to quietly sail when winds are favorable comes at a VERY high cost.........
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12-02-2018, 10:48
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#115
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cruiser
Join Date: Jan 2017
Boat: Retired from CF
Posts: 13,317
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Re: Cruising boat for a 62 and 63 year old?.
Plenty of cruising "trawler" type stinkpots, even full-time liveaboards.
Putter along slowly, very efficiently.
So, room for all among the over-generalizations.
Multi-hulls make the most fuel-efficient motorboats, but fuel efficiency isn't the be all and end all.
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12-02-2018, 12:37
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#116
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Moderator
Join Date: May 2008
Location: cruising SW Pacific
Boat: Jon Sayer 1-off 46 ft fract rig sloop strip plank in W Red Cedar
Posts: 21,154
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Re: Cruising boat for a 62 and 63 year old?.
Quote:
One could also say that the ability to quietly sail when winds are favorable comes at a VERY high cost.........
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And then consider the cost of stabilizers or paravanes that offshore m/v buy so they can enjoy the same stability that the sailing yacht has from that expensive sailing rig and keel.
These arguments are pretty damn silly. If one enjoys the art of sailing then no m/v will ever be a satisfactory substitute. If you don't enjoy sailing, the choice is easy.
Jim
__________________
Jim and Ann s/v Insatiable II, lying Port Cygnet Tasmania once again.
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12-02-2018, 13:58
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#117
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Australia
Boat: Milkraft 60 ex trawler
Posts: 4,653
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Re: Cruising boat for a 62 and 63 year old?.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cate
And then consider the cost of stabilizers or paravanes that offshore m/v buy so they can enjoy the same stability that the sailing yacht has from that expensive sailing rig and keel.
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Don't have stabilisers or paravanes but paravanes are cheap, a few grand for a boat our size.
What we do have is time.
Time to pick the right window to move in conditions that are suitable.
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12-02-2018, 14:01
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#118
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Australia
Boat: Milkraft 60 ex trawler
Posts: 4,653
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Re: Cruising boat for a 62 and 63 year old?.
Quote:
Originally Posted by john61ct
Multi-hulls make the most fuel-efficient motorboats, but fuel efficiency isn't the be all and end all.
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Not always
Similar sized cat to ours I was speaking to was burning 60 lph @ 10 knots vs our 15lph @ 7.5.
The cat also cost about $2.5 million more to buy.
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12-02-2018, 14:21
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#119
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cruiser
Join Date: Jan 2017
Boat: Retired from CF
Posts: 13,317
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Re: Cruising boat for a 62 and 63 year old?.
Of course not all are, but if that was the main concern, e.g. a battery-powered design, that's where you would start.
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12-02-2018, 16:39
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#120
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Florida
Boat: Scout 30
Posts: 3,112
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Re: Cruising boat for a 62 and 63 year old?.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cate
And then consider the cost of stabilizers or paravanes that offshore m/v buy so they can enjoy the same stability that the sailing yacht has from that expensive sailing rig and keel.
These arguments are pretty damn silly. If one enjoys the art of sailing then no m/v will ever be a satisfactory substitute. If you don't enjoy sailing, the choice is easy.
Jim
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That's the opposite of what this debate is about. The statement was that a sailboat makes more sense than a trawler for someone that only wants to cruise under power because it is more fuel efficient. Anyone who's actually owned a trawler would disagree. It is a fact that if you are comparing the cost of trawler boat ownership against the cost of sailboat ownership including the cost of maintaining the rig & sails is appropriate. Including the cost of stabilizers might not be since most trawlers do not have them. It is also true that adding a paravane rig is much less costly than a sailing rig. It's also true that monohull sailboats will roll under power & on downwind legs. In fact there was a thread here just last week about adding paravanes to a sailboat.
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