Advantages of a taller rig/30% larger sail area?

[GTom]

One of the boats I am considering to purchase come with 2 different rigs from factory: first-generation Malø 40-s are listed with 44m2 SA, the upgraded 40H has 59 m2 while the hull is kept the same, thus the SADR (originally 15.2) got a 30% boost.

How much low-wind speed improvement could we expect from such a boost in SADR?

I am also a bit worried about stability: taller rig undoubtedly moves both the center of effort and gravity higher.

SADR=20 sounds quite extreme to me (we are still speaking of standard layout, no code 0, spi, etc!), shall I see that as an alternative way of a 150% gen or is that a real improvement?

[MarkSF]

My point of view is that with the more powerful rig, you have the option to use the extra sail area, or not.

An SA/D of 20 is not that high these days, for example the Sabre range, a very well respected racer cruiser, comes in at 19 for the 402 model.

So on lighter air days you can take advantage of the extra sail area, and on heavier days put a reef in the main.

The question is what to do about the jib, as furling it does not lower the centre of effort. My summer jib (higher winds in summer here in SF Bay) is an 83% with a pennant at the top, which helps lower the centre of effort a bit.

You will need to match the jib size to the conditions, more so than with the standard / short rig.

[GTom]

Indeed, one can always reef. OTOH, for light airs I can also invest in a 150% genoa... Anyway, I try to fetch polar diagrams from the manufacturer for both rigs if possible. However, I am skeptical, both being 40 year old models...

[Snowpetrel]

Depends on the way you sail, if you are a key turner, the small rig is likely to be fine. The boat will sail beter in stronger winds. Bit if you are a sailor and resist starting the motor until the bitter end the big rig would be far better. Also a bigger rig means the boat is likely to sail well with a non overlapping jib rather than an overlapping genoa with a big increase in handiness all around.

Malo are unlikely to offer the big rig if the boat can't handle it. Most modern light hulls have more wetted surface due to the wide sterns and flatter bottoms. But this also gives them more stability. So Sa/disp of 20 is similar to a Sa/disp of 15 on a more traditional hull.

[GTom]

Originally Posted by Snowpetrel

So Sa/disp of 20 is similar to a Sa/disp of 15 on a more traditional hull.

Both (1976) Malo 40 and (1979) Malo 40H are traditional long-keel designs, not very beamy... The only thing they changed on the hull is that they moved the rudder to a skeg instead of attaching it directly to the keel.

Anyway right, they probably wouldn't have offered a taller rig if it was a gross violation of stability.

[Jim Cate]

You can always reef down a big rig. You can not unreef a small rig up!

IMO, the advantages of the taller rig far outweigh the disadvantages, and I'd take it in a flash.

Jim

[atmartin]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

You can always reef down a big rig. You can not unreef a small rig up!

My thoughts exactly. Our boat has a SA/D of 14. We've got partial battens on main and full battens on mizzen to add roach, a big code zero, a stupid big genoa and would like to add a mizzen mule. It would be great if we didn't have to pile on all the extra sail (and it's all hank on, hands-on stuff) to make good speed in winds under 8 knots.

However, it's been a lot less trouble here on the East side of the US than the West Coast and Mexico. Here on Eastern Long Island we usually have more than 10 knots, often a lot more, and we generally run reefed with a working jib. Back in Southern California and Mexico, where you're relying mostly on thermals, we felt very under-powered.

So part of the answer depends on where/when you plan to sail.

[seandepagnier]

Taller rig is faster in light wind, but more weight and windage aloft is bad in a storm. In strong winds reefed down, you won't have the same windward performance

This typical rig style used on most sailing boats is not a very good one.

I think people use it still because everyone else has it, and they don't have much imagination. I didn't know any better when I got my boat.

Consider dyneema standing rigging is much lighter cheaper stronger and more reliable than stainless, but most boats are using stainless. The same logic applies to all sorts of things.

[Jim Cate]

Taller rig is faster in light wind, but more weight and windage aloft is bad in a storm. In strong winds reefed down, you won't have the same windward performance

Yes, this is true to some extent. How much difference in total windage is made by an additional meter or so of mast is debatable, and a similar consideration for weight aloft, though the extra weight being so high up is not good.

And then one must consider how much time the average cruiser spends in light airs vs storm conditions of sufficient severity to make the above worries significant. For most of us, damn little.

Everyone gets to chose what and how he sails. In a way, Sean, I'm kinda surprised to hear you arguing against factors which help one sail in very light airs, keeping the dread engine off and ghosting along, enjoying the power of the tall rig.

Jim

[Snowpetrel]

Originally Posted by GTom

Both (1976) Malo 40 and (1979) Malo 40H are traditional long-keel designs, not very beamy... The only thing they changed on the hull is that they moved the rudder to a skeg instead of attaching it directly to the keel.

Anyway right, they probably wouldn't have offered a taller rig if it was a gross violation of stability.

Ahh, a different malo 40 to this 2006 model then. http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=5199

Even so a big rig is still the way to go. The difference by being able to make reasonable way in 5 knots vs 8 knots of wind is dramatic especially in a swell when the under canvased boat is wallowing and shaking the wind oit of her sails.

[seandepagnier]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Yes, this is true to some extent. How much difference in total windage is made by an additional meter or so of mast is debatable, and a similar consideration for weight aloft, though the extra weight being so high up is not good.

This is much more than a meter extra.

And then one must consider how much time the average cruiser spends in light airs vs storm conditions of sufficient severity to make the above worries significant. For most of us, damn little.

Yes it is not much time, but that time is scary.

I spend a lot more time beating in 20-35 knots where there is no danger, but the extra windage is detrimental.

Everyone gets to chose what and how he sails. In a way, Sean, I'm kinda surprised to hear you arguing against factors which help one sail in very light airs, keeping the dread engine off and ghosting along, enjoying the power of the tall rig.

Jim

I am not arguing against a tall rig. I personally would choose the taller rig with dyneema standing rigging in this particular case.

I'm arguing that a bermuda style rig is not a very good one, and it's surprising that it is common considering it's limitations, and other options available.

Consider a crab claw rig.

Much simpler, less weight aloft. The mast is much shorter, as the top of the sail is twice the mast height, when the sail is lowered, or a smaller storm sail is put up, then the weight aloft in these conditions is significantly lower.


Consider an even shorter rig. The mast and rigging can be even lighter weight. It can be enough to maneuver in harbors. It can easily be lowered for storms, and to go under bridges. Use kites for open water.

There exist many other options as well.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by boat_alexandra

This is much more than a meter extra.
Yes it is not much time, but that time is scary.

I spend a lot more time beating in 20-35 knots where there is no danger, but the extra windage is detrimental.
I am not arguing against a tall rig. I personally would choose the taller rig with dyneema standing rigging in this particular case.

I'm arguing that a bermuda style rig is not a very good one, and it's surprising that it is common considering it's limitations, and other options available.

Consider a crab claw rig.

Much simpler, less weight aloft. The mast is much shorter, as the top of the sail is twice the mast height, when the sail is lowered, or a smaller storm sail is put up, then the weight aloft in these conditions is significantly lower.


Consider an even shorter rig. The mast and rigging can be even lighter weight. It can be enough to maneuver in harbors. It can easily be lowered for storms, and to go under bridges. Use kites for open water.

There exist many other options as well.

OK, so I think we agree that in this case the taller rig (don't lnow how much taller it is) would be a good choice. Refitting with Dyneema would be a possibility, and perhaps a good one, depending on the age and condition of the rig as purchased. Folks looking at boats of this age often would not be budgeted to replace serviceable rigging, so that might not be viable.

But really, why bring up the crab claw rig in a thread like this? It may indeed have great merit - I'm not competent to comment - but surely you don't think that the OP or any other newbie should consider such a major alteration to a recently purchased boat. IMO that sort of activity in the hands of a novice will usually lead to tears. That outcome isn't rare in experienced yotties when they stray from best practice and current design. Or were you implying that there were boats with such rigs already in place that he should be considering?

Jim

PS for the OP: if you have the dimensions of the two Malo rigs, why not post them for our education?

[double u]

"...big rig is still the way to go..." absolutely! sailing has to be fun too & why rob yourself of these unforgettable moments when the boat sails through fairly flat water with the bowwave making this sound of paper being continuously torn?

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by double u

"...big rig is still the way to go..." absolutely! sailing has to be fun too & why rob yourself of these unforgettable moments when the boat sails through fairly flat water with the bowwave making this sound of paper being continuously torn?

Sailing is more fun when the rig suits the conditions. If you're sailing somewhere where you're mostly wishing for more sail, and rarely reefing, then the tall rig will be great! If you sail mostly coastal and can usually choose your weather, then ditto. However, if you sail in a windy place, you'll hate it. You can't "just reef"; reefed sails don't work like unreefed ones - especially headsails. Not only is the performance worse, but you wear them out, sailing a lot of miles reefed.

20 SA/D would be terrible where and how I sail now. Would have been great in Florida where I used to sail! Horses for courses!

Another thing about this - although you can't "just reef" and make a too big for conditions rig sail like one which is properly sized, you CAN add an assy or cruising Code Zero to a smaller rig, and extend the wind range downward, without hurting performance in stronger wind. Something to keep in mind. In my opinion, the most versatile rig is sized so you rarely have to reef the white sails, but you have other, light air sails on board. White sails can only do so much.

[GTom]

Originally Posted by Snowpetrel

Ahh, a different malo 40 to this 2006 model then. MALO 40 sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com

Even so a big rig is still the way to go. The difference by being able to make reasonable way in 5 knots vs 8 knots of wind is dramatic especially in a swell when the under canvased boat is wallowing and shaking the wind oit of her sails.

Indeed, it's the "old 40", not mentioned on the sailboatdata site. I am looking for a full keel boat.

Originally Posted by atmartin

My thoughts exactly. Our boat has a SA/D of 14. We've got partial battens on main and full battens on mizzen to add roach, a big code zero, a stupid big genoa and would like to add a mizzen mule. It would be great if we didn't have to pile on all the extra sail (and it's all hank on, hands-on stuff) to make good speed in winds under 8 knots.
...
So part of the answer depends on where/when you plan to sail.

Baltic, North Atlantic (up to Greenland), later maybe Caribbean. Meaning I expect everything from 0 to 70kts, but mostly windy. How did you fare with all the extra stuff? I expect more trips in 20kts+ conditions, I mind the hassle of pulling a code 0 for those few days with little wind...