Purchasing a boat... what price for re-rigging standing rigging? Should I?

[MarsRover]

Hello all,

I am under contract in the process of purchasing an early 80's William Garden style Island trader Ketch in Panama City, FL. I'm planning to sail it back home to Baltimore if the my surveys and sea trial doesn't come up with any show stoppers.

The seller/broker/marina owner is a really really nice fellow. He went ahead and did a rigging inspection with his rigger the other day and found some things needing to be addressed with the swages on only the lower parts of the standing rigging.

I am still planning on having my own independent surveyor in a couple weeks scour the boat in full, and i am still waiting to see the seller's rigger's report to see what exactly it was that needs to be addressed at the "lower swages on the standing rigging", I'm trying to get some input.

The seller/broker offered to either:

• Pay to get those issues his rigger found, addressed

OR

• Split the cost of a whole new standing rigging install and then said it will be about $10k to $15k to maybe upwards of $20k to replace.

The rigger doesn't give hard quotes saying theres too many unknowns until it is on the hard and he can take all the rigging down and measure it all out and take stock at which point i feel like i'll be stuck with what ever number he says and i'm not comfortable with that.


My questions for you all is:

• What is an expected price (or price range) for all new steel, standing rigging on a ketch this size?
  
• My plan with this boat was that when the standing rigging needed to be replaced, I'd convert it over to synthetic standing rigging. Should I just have the seller pay to get the fixes done so it is safe to sail home, and then re-rig (i'll decide steel or synthetic at that point) back in Maryland with a local rigger?
  

Thanks for the input everyone!

[Orion Jim]

Since you already decided to convert to synthetic rigging just let the buyer fix any issues found in the rigging survey. When you are in your home port you can chose to hire the rigging replacement out or do it yourself.
Synthetic or stainless will not be a small investment.

[DefinitelyMe]

For 20k are you getting new spars as well?! Those estimates seem very high. I've done two yachts over the last few years, a 36' sloop and a 38' sloop and I'm pretty sure it was about $3k for each.

On my own boat I replaced the lowers (split lowers, two on each side) two years ago with 13mm Dyneema, aluminium terminals from Colligo Marine, bronze turnbuckles and 1/2" stainless chainplates and mast tangs. That came to about $4k but included all the fabrication of tangs etc.

Take a look at a site like this one and put together your own estimate. Cable lengths can be guesstimates. It doesn't make much difference to price. What's costly is the terminations.

https://www.riggingandhardware.com/

[MarsRover]

Thank you both! This was VERY helpful. I'm comfortable with cost estimation in spaceflight builds, but when it comes to this, I remember that it's not going to space (the money coming from my pocket helps with that...) and I was surprised by the price estimates for this rig.

Anyone else who can share more of their prices for their rigs (and info about your rigs) would be much appreciated!

[Manateeman]

Wood spars? Please ask the forum for their opinions.
There are a lot of other issues common to these older Taiwan boats.
You should research the complexity and costs from other owners.
The size, space, nice wood interior and solid hulls have lured a lot of people into boats similar to this...then the reality of the costs of renewing systems hits as they sink more and more money into the boat.
You might find the cost of aluminum spars and new rigging is just the start of your investments.
Please research further beforehand.
Happy trails to you.
Captain Mark and his professional boatbuilder manatees

[Creedence]

Hi Mars, if I understand correctly, the seller offered to split the cost of replacing the standing rigging and then estimated that to be $20k? If I were you, I’d take the $10k he’s offering and call it a day.

I had my standing rigging replaced some time back on a 36’ Catalina and it was about $3k. Based on that, I feel the $20,000 estimate is quite high, and I wouldn’t be surprised if you could get it all done for around $10,000.

Alternatively, if you had him replace the lower swages, I’d think you’d be getting maybe $1-2k in value there.

If you plan to run it up to Baltimore right away, it couldn’t hurt to get your own, independent survey of the rigging done, then address any issues they find. It’s impossible to say if the standing rigging is fit for that trip as-is or not without seeing it of course.

To Manatee’s point, I’d also have the soars inspected to be sure the masts are sound. Wood spars do require special attention.

[Mickeyrouse]

Sounds like it’s time to bring my swaging machine to Panama City. We had our 40 ft yawl completely re-rigged a few years ago. Total cost: about $2k in Kemah, Tx. Rigging was done based on measurements of old rigging, un-installed.

[MarsRover]

Originally Posted by Manateeman

Wood spars? Please ask the forum for their opinions.
There are a lot of other issues common to these older Taiwan boats.
You should research the complexity and costs from other owners.
The size, space, nice wood interior and solid hulls have lured a lot of people into boats similar to this...then the reality of the costs of renewing systems hits as they sink more and more money into the boat.
You might find the cost of aluminum spars and new rigging is just the start of your investments.
Please research further beforehand.
Happy trails to you.
Captain Mark and his professional boatbuilder manatees

When you say "ask the forum", i thought thats what i was doing with this thread? Or are you recommending i post this elsewhere?

I plan to get my own surveyor to go over this boat in full. The wood spars also apparently need to be replaced, which the seller/broker said he is going to do.

I'm not so worried about spending good money for honest work, but what i don't want to do is split $20k for a rigging job that really should have only cost $7k said and done, and been split at that price.

Originally Posted by Creedence

Hi Mars, if I understand correctly, the seller offered to split the cost of replacing the standing rigging and then estimated that to be $20k? If I were you, I’d take the $10k he’s offering and call it a day.

Seller/broker/marina owner is not offering to just give me half of $20k in cash off the sale. He is offering to have this rigger (or another rigger of my choosing if i can find one after the hurricanes) to redo all the standing rigging, i'd pay half the bill, he'd pay half the bill. What i'm nervous about is: Why would someone offer to spend more money on something they don't have to? That plus the rigger won't give me a firm quote. That plus the rigger and the seller/broker/marina owner seem to be pretty close. And from what i see here, the rigger's price frame seems inflated by 2x or more, meaning really i'm just paying for the job (maybe even more than that) and the seller is also? Or maybe i'm really paying for the whole thing and the bill just says 2x? Not accusing anyone of anything, but i have personally interacted with a lot of shady dealings with contractor work, and I've seen contractors try and pull something similar to what i described above with insurance adjusters and insured persons.

It sounds like the price range ballparked is much higher than it should be.

[Knotical]

Above, you said the wood spars need to be replaced - does 20k price quote include that too? If it does maybe someone with experience/knowledge can give you an opinion.

Wrt standing rigging replacement without the spars, I was quoted $5k on Long Island Sound (we have aluminum spars).

[zstine]

Remove, measure and install can all be done yourself. I bought all new rigging, swaged, with new turnbuckles on my Tartan 41' sloop for about $4k from riggingonly. Your ketch will be more, but i would not pay more than double. So no more than $8k for rigging assuming you do the work.

[Cheechako]

I don't think the price is high at all for that complicated boat... if it's being done by a rigger ...not by you.

[joelhemington]

Originally Posted by MarsRover

Hello all,

I am under contract in the process of purchasing an early 80's William Garden style Island trader Ketch in Panama City, FL. I'm planning to sail it back home to Baltimore if the my surveys and sea trial doesn't come up with any show stoppers.

The seller/broker/marina owner is a really really nice fellow. He went ahead and did a rigging inspection with his rigger the other day and found some things needing to be addressed with the swages on only the lower parts of the standing rigging.

I am still planning on having my own independent surveyor in a couple weeks scour the boat in full, and i am still waiting to see the seller's rigger's report to see what exactly it was that needs to be addressed at the "lower swages on the standing rigging", I'm trying to get some input.

The seller/broker offered to either:

• Pay to get those issues his rigger found, addressed

OR

• Split the cost of a whole new standing rigging install and then said it will be about $10k to $15k to maybe upwards of $20k to replace.

The rigger doesn't give hard quotes saying theres too many unknowns until it is on the hard and he can take all the rigging down and measure it all out and take stock at which point i feel like i'll be stuck with what ever number he says and i'm not comfortable with that.


My questions for you all is:

• What is an expected price (or price range) for all new steel, standing rigging on a ketch this size?
  
• My plan with this boat was that when the standing rigging needed to be replaced, I'd convert it over to synthetic standing rigging. Should I just have the seller pay to get the fixes done so it is safe to sail home, and then re-rig (i'll decide steel or synthetic at that point) back in Maryland with a local rigger?
  

Thanks for the input everyone!

I kind of like the idea of splitting the new rigging cost. You'd be good to go for another ten years and it might be a good time to consider mechanical fittings as opposed to swages. Note: nothing against Dyneema but it apparently takes about a month of readjusting to get the mast tuned properly and with all that exterior teak, you'll have enough to keep you busy (beautiful boat BTW). The cost could easily hit 20 grand being that this is a ketch. If you did it yourself you might get in for about 10 grand and a hard weeks work for at least two people. I'd split the cost and save all the work for about the same cost without all the headaches.

[Manateeman]

Hi. When I suggested more research on this boat I was suggesting you look beyond the rigging because Taiwan vessels like this boat often have multiple areas of repairs which far exceed the cost of the rigging.
Teak decks. They become problematic on a lot of boats.
Teak rub rail and aft rails. They look beautiful but require upkeep and sometimes costly repair. Has the entire electrical system been replaced? Fuel tanks?
The engine? Will the seller pay to have it hauled for inspection.

You might not like what I say next but I’d pass on this boat and find another.
I’d reserve money for refurbishing a 40 to 45 foot proven classic rather than undertaking this project. Please read up on the issues with these vessels, the cost to repair and the time required. I know one couple who spent months pulling off a teak deck then another summer on systems. They ended up with a beautiful boat but the repairs exceeded the original investment. They had stars in their eyes when they bought it. Please, just do more research. Looking at this boat all I see are issues. There are some very nice boats available which can be brought up to excellent condition for a lower percentage of purchase price.
Others have asked the forum for advice at a given budget. Anyway.
Happy trails to you.
Captain Mark and his old boatbuilding manatees

[MarsRover]

Originally Posted by Manateeman

When I suggested more research on this boat I was suggesting you look beyond the rigging because Taiwan vessels like this boat often have multiple areas of repairs which far exceed the cost of the rigging.

Are you able to elaborate on what the multiple areas of repairs are common?

I'm well aware of the issues with teak decking and rails and am willing to accept the consequences (maintenance and work).

Electrical system: It will be checked out during the survey and I'll go from there.

I have been intentionally seeking a William Garden, Formosa/Hudson Force style ketch for a while now. I have been on several in this price range and lower. One had the bowsprit sawed off the save money requiring full refits, and another of which was literally sitting on the keel on the bottom of the marina grinding on the docks with the bilge filled to the sole.

I'm not looking for a perfect boat, I'm looking for the right one and so far this is the closest I've found in the price range, especially that i don't have to drag across the country on a truck or ferry across oceans on a transport ship.

This deal isn't done, it is initiated with contingencies. Now I am looking to dig deep with the community's guidance as to what i should be looking for on this particular vessel, so i can see if the work found needing to be done is something i'm still willing to get involved in.

Thanks for everyone's inputs! Please keep them coming!

[barnakiel]

It will depend on how you use the boat. Extensive offshore use requires different attitude / $$ than local use.


b.