Bavaria Nautitech Fly 46

[brainmaker]

Oh and Rom, see if you can post some videos of your 440 doing cool higher speeds in different circumstances, it's winter here in the UK and life is too boring. If you have what you think is an accurate polar diagram, can you post that ? It'd be interesting to see. I should have gotten a 440 when they came out - it would have possibly changed my life a great deal.

[smj]

Originally Posted by brainmaker

heya Rom, good point - L440 is 10 tonnes ... and a really nice boat and the grandfather of hard bimini and flybridge ... except it is out of production. L450 is 16 tonnes ... and L440 is not as spacious as the Bav 46 fly. And it doesn't have the quite seriously awesome flybridge ... or the in mast furler. But thanks for thinking, interesting stuff, and as you are admitting - there isn't much out there in terms of current production cats like it.

Still no reply on how you drop or reef the main when the furler fails?

[robert sailor]

Originally Posted by smj

Still no reply on how you drop or reef the main when the furler fails?

Furling mains are used on monos by the multi thousands. They seem to work just fine even in the charter market. Why would multi hulls be any different.

[smj]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

Furling mains are used on monos by the multi thousands. They seem to work just fine even in the charter market. Why would multi hulls be any different.

Do the furling mains on monos use full length vertical battens, and if so, how does one reef or drop the main if and when the inmast furling system fails. Seems like a reasonable question?

[robert sailor]

Originally Posted by smj

Do the furling mains on monos use full length vertical battens, and if so, how does one reef or drop the main if and when the inmast furling system fails. Seems like a reasonable question?

It's a reasonable question. Probably 95% of the furling mains out there have no battens and have a hollow leach. If the sail is out it can be pulled down just like your furling headsail.
Vertical battens are a different game, they are able to take the hollow out of a furling main with vertical battens and get more drive out of the sail. Usually the battens don't cover the whole sail and are very light battens so the sail can be pulled down when it's out. The issue in the past is that even though the battens are very light and skinny in profile if the sail is not furled correctly it is easier to jamb them.
Im not sure how succesful the sailmakers have been in making these sails as bullet proof as the standard battenless sails. In monos they usually make the rig a bit bigger to make up for the sail area they loose when comparing it to a sail with a decent roach.

[smj]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

It's a reasonable question. Probably 95% of the furling mains out there have no battens and have a hollow leach. If the sail is out it can be pulled down just like your furling headsail.

Vertical battens are a different game, they are able to take the hollow out of a furling main with vertical battens and get more drive out of the sail. Usually the battens don't cover the whole sail and are very light battens so the sail can be pulled down when it's out. The issue in the past is that even though the battens are very light and skinny in profile if the sail is not furled correctly it is easier to jamb them.

Im not sure how succesful the sailmakers have been in making these sails as bullet proof as the standard battenless sails. In monos they usually make the rig a bit bigger to make up for the sail area they loose when comparing it to a sail with a decent roach.

So if you have to reef the sail or pull it down in a squall how do you do it with vertical battens? Seems as if it would be absolutely impossible? And on top of this you have to deal with a canvas Bimini which you can't walk on.
The video looks like a ton of fun but it seems to me as if the boat is already overpowered and could have used a reef put in.

[warren460]

The boat was healing quite a bit. Needed a reef for sure.

[brainmaker]

hi SMJ, sorry wasn't fast enough answering for you, I don't work here you know but thanks to all that did answer in the meantime, and let me add the following as it might help get a naysayer out of the stone age. I had my first Kemp Selden inmast furler main in 1999 on my then new bavaria 37 I lived on. it did not have vertical battens, was quite new at the time, looked exactly the same mechanism as on the N 46 fly. It always worked during the years I had it, including 60 knots of wind, and including a passage from the Scilly Isles to Kinsale to the new owner when I sold it, straight into a force 8 with ridiculous Irish Sea waves, I had a friend of mine on board who comes from generations of fishermen, he doesn't say much but after a long night, he woke up, and looked at the mast and said "oh great, it's still standing" - we were going at 3-4 knots and had massive smacks with the flattish belly of the boat when coming down every third wave which made the mast shake and "zing". During all that and the rest of the years, no hiccups. Also, if the enless reefing line fails, you can stick your winchhandle into the mechanism and wind it in. If that would fail, just like a roller furling headsail, you can just pull it down through the same groove you use to hoist it. I've never seen or heard of Kemp Selden inmast systems failing, but of course they could. I guess seeing the world adopt furling headsails, I recall being little, that being new and purists condemning that too. I think more lives have been endangered and lost by people being exposes on decks and bows with conventional sails, than with a jammed furler. Furling sails allow people to stay in the cockpit. I remember as a kid gathering the foresail when it came down on deck with bungees, tying it to the guardrails, always a bit dangerous, often quite wet, I am glad there are furling headsails.

Similarly I am happy with the furling mainsail, ok, it hasn't got a roach, but thank heavens it hasn't got these big heavy long slab reefing lines that must go up and come down, even with a "lazy" bag you need to put the sail in and zip it up - and open when you hoist, and you must hoist to not catch the lazylines, both hoisting and dropping require rodeoriding way high up there, this is a very clean system, that lowers the barrier of "shall we hoist the mainsail/shall we reef the mainsail" a great deal and makes for easier shorthanding.

I recall also from my 1999 new Bavaria 37 with Kemp Selden inmast furler, then quite new and unseen, I used to always be the first one in rallies and races to pick up a mooring, to then sit in the cockpit with a cup of tea, watching all the others busy with many crew putting the mainsail away and then quickly snatching the nicest remaining moorings from each other. It's just much less work and hassle and I am a big fan of that, and the much smaller amount of spagetthi in the cockpit is very noticeable indeed - don't forget we're talking a 46 footer here with a big main, which would mean big heavy amounts of reefing lines, I am glad these are absent with this main.

Warren - yes you are right normally it would have long been time to reef. This was a test to see with enough professionals on board, if the boat and the sails could handle it. It's good to know that if you are way too late reefing, the rig and the boat can handle it well. And I thought it would be helpful to other potential owners to share the information on windspeeds with full sail, so their mind is set at rest that this boat has a very large safety margin indeed. But don't listen to me - I am not a professional, I have no commercial interests, I am just enjoying new boats in a probably very unprofessional and unscientific way and comparing them for my own purposes. I do note that where a factory video gets 30k views, the average boat test gets 15-30k views, my videos with strong wind conditions get 155k views in the same time period, and I get inundated with positive comments and private messages asking how it was. Which is for me motivation to share things on youtube - I really enjoy other people's videos doing the same too. Pretty cool, democracy and "people's power" and happinness sharing powers of the internet

[smj]

Thanks for the reply brainmaker. I don't have anything against in mast furlers but I would like to have a plan in case it fails. I still don't see how it would be possible to pull the main down safely in a squall with vertical battens that are probably 50+ feet long. Easy to have a contingency plan with horizontal battens but vertical battens I just can't picture it.

[brainmaker]

SMJ, dude you sound so worried ... of course I have a plan B, which is tierapped to the bimini both upstairs on the third floor and downstairs on the second floor above headheight, it's called a breadknife !! Great for all occasions, such as mooring mistakes and fishing nets in the props. Get the serrated one.

Being a serious sailor and liking halyard surfing/halyard jumping/kiteboarding behind the boat (one of the few things that is better in a monohull) of course there is a climbing harnass which you can use in combination with the electric winch and a halyard.

I recommend you have that too, a conventional mainsail can get jammed too !

Don't ask for a demonstration video on this now will ya

Here from the old box - 10 years ago now, same drysuit (long live musto HPX - they do last !)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MN7K_8RvWSc

[smj]

brainmaker, I'm not worried actually I'm pretty confident in our abilities to drop the main on our boat quickly if need be.
As you weren't able to answer my question I searched the internet and found the answer. To drop the vertical batten main on the Nautitech you first have to remove the battens. Luckily the battens are spliced so your not dealing with full length 50-60' battens. Unluckily you have a huge Bimini in the way and the chances of pulling all the battens and dropping the main in a timely manner in squally conditions are slim to none. Now I understand the bread knife, it's called cutting in a reef rather than setting a reef!
I enjoyed the video and it appears to be a nice boat but to me the vertical batten main and in mast furling is a problem.

[robert sailor]

Personally coming from many years of club racing i much prefer a big roachy main, top 2 battens full length and the rest long battens but not full length, loose footed. Roach so large that it overlaps the backstay by a couple of feet. In really light air you have to push the main across the backstay when you tack. That is a good powerful mainsail .
Cruising ..well all my past offshore boats have had conventional mains but this one came from the factory with a Seldon mainsail furler..my wife was the big booster and i went along for the ride knowing id never be happy with it.
Well after 5 years with this rig with cruising in mind I'm quite happy with it. It really flattens out when deeply reefed so it does very well in strong winds. It's so easy to use that I can reef on any point of sail and because it's so easy you always have the right amount of sail out, something that doesn't happen very often on a conventional main. The downside is the sail is not a great sail, it does the job for a cruiser but it hurts your pointing ability. If your off the wind then the difference is not that much. I know sailors have had problems with them but unless the gear actually breaks down and as long as you know what your doing I think you would have to have a shortage of brain power to have problems. I guess one other good point is that because all they are is a jib the cost of replacement is very low. I couldn't bear to put one on a performance boat but a typical cruising cat might be an ideal fit.

[yeloya]

Hi brainmaker,


I am glad that you are 100% satisfied with yr boat, congratulations..
Nevertheless, I have to disagree with many of yr arguments;

-I won't mention the fly bridge that you are in love with. This has been discussed in length, if you like it it's fine, I don't. But this is subjective..

-The furling main on a cat is not a good idea, even if you have a vertical battens. If it worked on monos, it doesn't mean that it will also work on cats. The rigging and sail plans of cats are complerely different than monos and the driving factor on cats is always the mainsail. If furling is jammed, on mono some of the blow can be discharged by heeling, cats don't heel. The furling mains have about 1/3 of life span compared to classical mains. This is not cheap; about 8-10.000 € for the panel cut dacron. High tech fabrics with vertical battens can go up to double. This is the statistic I am drawing from my experience of 30+ boats of various makes and model over 10 years. Even worse, the furler starts to loose the shape earlier (if it's dacron). This in turns leads two other problems, the performance which is in any case never as good as classical, becomes errible, particularly upwind. Second problem, the more they loose the shape the more the risk of getting it stuck in the mast. Reefing of classical main is not an issue at all, . (as long as you don't have a flybridge and have to climb 2-3 meters from the mast foot, on a choppy sea)

-The performance you showed on yr video didn't impress me much. At this wind almost all of charter cats would be double digit or very close to it. As mentioned by some other forumers, what counts is the light air performance, pointing ability and the leeway you are giving.

-you are exagerating the reefing of classical main. I have been reefing unreefing on various cat while singlehanded, never had an issue
-I don't know the exact price of N 46, but in this price range you can have Outremer 45 or Catana 47 that will turn around you. No flybridge tough..


Anyway, what counts is that you are happy with yr boat, enjoy it..

Cheers

Yeloya

[Barra]

Seems to me if you are going to go a fly bridge model like this you need to seriously consider an alternative to slab reefed main.

I mean just take a look at the pics of the boom on this version flybridge in particular and imagine trying to haul a jammed main down manually in some waves. Good chance you would go over the side i reckon and if your tied on good chance you'll brain yourself on the deck below or brake a bone falling into the cockpit.

The in mast furler has serious performance draw backs which have a bigger impact on main driven cats than monos. Plus from a safety perspective a jammed up main when you need to reef could result in some real problems with uncontrolled acceleration and potential rigging failure (again unlike in a mono which can just heel over) Also there is a chance that the drama that could happen on slab reef main could happen with in mast as well only be far more difficult to get down.

So to me it seems the only ideal solution is in boom furling so if i was going this way I would be adding another 20,000 odd to the purchase price. Just part of the real world cost of having a fly bridge I reckon.

The guys that have done this on the lagoon 450s seem pretty happy.

[rom]

Hey Barra, while you are still "in between boats" wondering what is a good boat there are 1000+ owners of L440 & L450 out there, some of which are sailing long distances, and I am not aware of any of them "go over the side, brake a bone etc ..." more than on any other boat. There is no such thing as a perfect boat, I think you know that, and there is no such thing as a perfect life living on boat either, but sometimes you need to do something