Advice, Morgan 40' Ketch (NOT an OI)

[JerseyMermaid]

Hi everyone~

Hubs and I have been on the hunt for a sailboat to run around the Chesapeake Bay with and adventures further south. Our plan was to step from a 30' boat (to be purchased now) to a liveaboard/cruising Ketch when he retires in 3 more years.

In our hunt around the Hampton Roads area, we stumbled upon a Morgan 40 Ketch that's been completely refit. The owner spent quite a few hours with us yesterday going over the boat. It is NOT an Out Island, which he scoffed at and said were "pigs in the water with flat bottoms". Clearly, that answered his feelings about THAT!

In any event, he has poured a lot of money into refitting her; she is plywood and glass, not balsa cored. He refurbished the interior, redid all the woodwork, added a windvane and purchased all new sails. Her engine has been rebuilt, it's a 4108 Perkins. Per his listing:

"This is a great sailing vessel with a 4' 4" draft, perfect sailing balance- NO weather helm. The boat had an complete refit including New- bronze ports, fuel tank, electric ac/ad panel/ACR, Main-155 jib-mizzen sails, Jiffy reefs-2, New style Aires windvane, inverter, bow roller, boarding ladder[diver], wiring, all hoses, sinks and more.
The engine and trans were rebuilt with 10 running hours. The interior was reworked with teak and ipee woods, new cushion covers, plumbing, all deck fittings and rail rebidded- ect
All work completed in a professional and proper manner.
This is a seaworthy dry- vessel- NEEDS nothing"


After a lot of hours hunting around on the net, there is only one other hull like hers that I foundany chatter about, and it was a discussion here on CF with the impending survey/purchase of the Lady Catherine II, Link to that HERE.

Even in that topic, there was little to no information around about a 1970 Morgan Ketch.

The boat seems as solid as they come and I appreciated the thought and care he put into refitting her to make her even more solid. There are zero electronics aboard; he was of the mindset of keeping things simple. Also, no furling systems. You could say he was a bit of a purist. Last hauled 6 weeks ago (and every two years steadily) for new bottom paint.

The reason I've come asking for advice is two-fold; one, how do I even begin to assess a proper offer when I can't find any comps in the Morgan lineup other than the highly opinionated convos about OI's and also, with so little info available on the internet to discern good/bad about this boat, where else can I gather info on this vessel?

Admittedly, we are new to the sailing world and while I don't want to sound suspicious of all sellers, my belief is to question everything until I have suitable answers. Additionally, this boat comes with a hefty price tag (for our budget, anyway) and I'd like to not overpay or insult the seller. Though, he did say that we'd be surprised at what he'd sell her for, since he really wants to sell everything and move to Puerto Rico. Is a 30% under asking too low? I've even researching that, trying to figure out a basis for making offers.

Lastly, I'd make sure all offers were contingent upon any discoveries during a survey and sea trials.

What have I missed? What should a newbie do next to learn whatever one can about a possible boat?

TIA,

~Red

[tkeithlu]

What does your surveyor say?

You do have a surveyor?

Seriously, a survey is in order, and a surveyor familiar with roughly similar boats is a good starting point.

[JerseyMermaid]

Pics attached!

[JerseyMermaid]

Originally Posted by tkeithlu

What does your surveyor say?

You do have a surveyor?

Seriously, a survey is in order, and a surveyor familiar with roughly similar boats is a good starting point.

No surveyor yet; that's next in my research to figure out who and where to get that done, but definitely agree that it should be done. However, I'm under the impression that one shouldn't have a survey done until an offer is made and accepted, as general practice since it protects both buyer and seller a bit. True?

[tkeithlu]

I have not been on the market, and there may be a tradition out there, but I can't see making an offer when I don't know what the boat is worth, at least in terms of its condition. Without anything being concealed, you still don't have an expert's eye to get below the shiny stuff on the surface.

[ShoreFun]

So from many years of wheeling and dealing at car flea markets (since I was 5) I can say try any offer. The guy has said he wants to move it. You are being shy but he is indicating he is ready to move on and deal. In the stuff I have been reading often boats sell for 20% less then listing and often more.
So dealing is an agreement. You come up with some low number and he says no, hopefully he counter offers and you give a little. The worst that happens is he says no and you have to offer more money. It does not sound like he will be insulted with a low offer.
I have been rewarded often for low balling and other times cursed out. I do not care I offer and see where it goes.

[LLCoolDave]

A few thoughts...

It's great to have a knowledgeable owner who spent the money and maintained her.
New sails and a rebuilt Perkins are pluses.
It does have a furler on the headsail.
Shallow draft is great for the Chesapeake and the Caribbean.

Cons
Appears to be a day sailor and not a cruiser. Meaning no dodger, no bimini, no solar, a small battery bank. Possibly no refrigeration. You are going to have spend a bit of money if you want to head south in this boat. If you want to invest the money, when it comes time to sell, you aren't going to see even 50 cents on the dollar. Probably 25 cents.
With the same basic setup as the OI; full shallow keel, ketch rig it really won't sail any better than an OI.
IMO a 155 Genoa is too large of a headsail. He claims no weather helm but you're likely to get lee helm because the center of effort is too far forward. Also, as soon as you start to furl it you lose sail shape and it won't drive the boat as well.
Regarding electronics at the minimum you'll want a depth sounder.
No mention of the age of the rigging. Ketches are more expensive to rerig than a sloop.

The last question is how much of this are you willing to do yourself? It gets a lot more expensive when you pay someone else.

In my mind around $40k would be market value. Maybe less. I doubt he would take less than $30k.

[jewt]

The hull looks like my '69 K/CB Morgan without the C/B. A very solid, great sailing vessel I owned for 38 years. She made 18 trips to the Bahamas, including 4 non-stop from Beaufort, NC and returned.
She had been changed by the PO to a yawl for a better IOR rating in 1970 where she took first place in her class in the Newport to Bermuda but I converter her back to a sloop.

A hell of a boat, designed and built by great man.

jewt
S/V Bifrost
New Bern,NC

[RobertoD]

A sail boat is a SAILBOAT. HOW YOU USE IT AND CONFIGUR IT IS THE OWNER/CAPTAIN'S CHOICE. Lots of major cruisers do so without Biminis, and even without dodgers. Or even Solar. And I see many day-sailers with dodgers, biminis, solar, radar etc that never go out of sight of shore. Yes an autopilot or self steering gear are considered a requisite for cruising distances, and refrigeration is a handy plus, but we sailed for many years without these modern "necessities", including GPS. It is the basic boat that counts - well founded and equipped for SAILING, and Motoring. That is primary concern - the rest are amenities that the owner can add at their discretion and timetable.
Too often buyers get hooked on amenities, and overlook "slight" problems with the basic boat.
Get a survey, make an offer - that can then be negotiated. Nothing ventured - nothing gained!

[Mlp48]

Most surveyors issue a Market Value estimate as a part of the survey -- so why not get a survey done ? Ask around and find a surveyor who is known for their integrity. Avoid using the seller's or broker's surveyor ! You can possibly survey before having a contract of sale but perhaps not and perhaps you'd not be well-advised on that anyways as a contract can protect you against a lot of things. Let it be clear that if the boat does not meet your expectations survey-wise or in sea trial, you are entitled to walk and then the costs to you are the survey and yard charges. Let it be clear that you will be held harmless for things that come up in the survey. You will also need a good survey to get that old of a boat insured too ! My preference would also be to buy a boat that had not had umpteen holes drilled in it for now effete electronics ! In any case, CAVEAT EMPTOR.

[winschwab]

What is the beam of the boat? The OI is 13'-10". The beam view of the keel in your photo is pretty much identical to the OI, so the only major improvement in hull performance over the OI would probably be a narrower beam.

[warren5421]

I bought a J boat that all the electronics was gone. I wanted it to live on and sale to other countries but after paying to move from storage to the river, pricing the electronics I wanted, replacing stove and refrigerator and some other things a $40,000 boat turned into a $75,000 boat worth only $38,750 on the market. 2 heart attacks put it on the market. 4 years latter I have a Christ Craft ketch and am back on board but I bought a a boat with what was need on it. Yes I did put some money in it but the first week of owning I was out with it, not working on it. Look at what you think you need and what some of the owners on here tell you, you need to see if the price goes high enough to make your $40,000 boat a $80,000 boat.

[stimpsonjcat]

Originally Posted by winschwab

What is the beam of the boat? The OI is 13'-10". The beam view of the keel in your photo is pretty much identical to the OI, so the only major improvement in hull performance over the OI would probably be a narrower beam.

I had the same thought as I have been looking at OIs as a possible loop boat.

sailboatdata has the 41 OI at 13.8 and the 41 at 11.25

2.5ft difference.

I am a n00b and have no idea if that is significant.

[bimini blue]

You will want electronics and furling
Check out the othe post on a Morgan 40
That is the equipment you will want even for day sailing and overnights

[roverhi]

The only electronics you need are a GPS and a depth sounder and you can get those combined in a plotter. You will need some form of self steering, wind vane and/or auto pilot, if you plan on going anywhere. A hand held, floating VHS radio to call bridge tenders and other boats is nice to have though cell phones have pretty much negated the need. Seems most boaters never turn on their radios, know I don't, or have them buried below decks where they can't hear them on deck.

Have a 35' centerboard boat drawing 3' 10" with a similar underbody. Seldom put the board down and never on a long trade wind passage. Boat will make a bit more leeway than a deep keeled boat hard on the wind but that deep keel is just drag once you crack off. With the exception of the OI series, Charlie Morgan designed some stunning boats and they all seemed to sail well.