Sail material for long term cruising both tropics and higher latitudes - performance

[fxykty]

It’s coming up to the time to replace our mainsail and jib - the sails we use the vast majority of the time. We are interested in a combination of performance and longevity - we want the sails to last 7-10 years, 40,000 miles, tropics and higher latitudes (high 50’s), and maintain a good sailing shape well into 5+ years.

Our current sails are 10 years old, have seen 40,000 miles primarily in the tropics and mid latitudes, and are tri-radial cut Hydranet. Cloth strength is still good, but stitching and tapes are rotting. More importantly, and the reason to replace rather than repair, is that they are both blown out, the main worse than the jib.

For context, our boat is a 16.3m/54’ performance cruising catamaran, with a very large-roached main and a blade self-tacking jib. Sail sizes are 80sqm and 35sqm respectively.

While the Hydranet sails have certainly lasted, they have not kept their shape. That’s been explained to us that because the Spectra is woven into cloth, the Spectra fibres while not stretching much will straighten out as the Polyester (Dacron) fibres woven at 90 degrees stretch, and that effectively stretches the sail in both directions. The Spectra does not add much in terms of retaining the designed sail shape. And the cost is as much as the highest tech sails, so we’re certain they’re not worth their cost.

If we accept that our sails will lose their designed shape, and longevity is most important, then high quality Dacron sails seem to be the best bet. They’re a fraction of the cost of Hydranet, with effectively the same stretch. They will have to be relatively heavy to handle the higher righting moment of our cat.

Then there are the various cruise laminate woven cloths, using some combination of Dyneema and Technora (Kevlar) fibres woven into cloth and laminated with Polyester top layers. Much better shape retention and a lot less weight, but do the laminates stand up to heat and humidity? And these are still woven, so over time the fibres will straighten and the sails lose their designed shapes, though presumably not as dramatically as the Dacron sails. Cost is about double that of Dacron. Hydranet falls into this category, but that cost is on par with the panelled membranes.

Finally there are the panelled membranes such as Doyle’s Stratis and North’s 3Di. Some combinations of Dyneema, Technora and Carbon fibres, glued to a Mylar sheet and laminated with Polyester top layers. Much lighter and best shape retention as nothing is woven, but the same potential problems as the cruise laminates in heat and humidity. Cost is about double that of the cruise laminates and four times that of Dacron.

Thoughts?

[Nicholson58]

Take a look at North 3DI sails. Expensive but will keep shape for years of cruising, so they say. No stretch

https://www.northsails.com/sailing/e...tions-answered

[Breaking Waves]

Originally Posted by fxykty

Finally there are the panelled membranes such as Doyle’s Stratis and North’s 3Di. Some combinations of Dyneema, Technora and Carbon fibres, glued to a Mylar sheet and laminated with Polyester top layers.

Thoughts?

3Di is NOT a Mylar laminate.
3DL was, and it had the typical mylar/lamination failure modes. It is obsolete.
3Di is quite different. There is no mylar base at all. It is very thin tapes glued on top of each other. It is theoretically much more durable than the laminates, but it does in practice have its own distinctive failure modes (it is more QA sensitive than other processes).

Honestly, if you are happy with dacron shape and weight . . . . I would go with that . . . . but given your boat, I would be surprised if you were (I at least would not be thrilled with either the shape-holding nor the weight on a boat like yours).

It is honestly hard to get a highly loaded sail to hold shape beyond 3-4 years/30-40k miles in any material.

[barnakiel]

Look at sails made in laminated cloth combining some plain and some exotic yarns. They seem to be a nice point below quality polyester and top specs mould builds.


Most brands make them Bainbridge, Challenge, etc.


Good $/Q imho.


b.

[mikereed100]

We have a similar sail plan on a smaller cat. The jib is from Ullman, a spectra laminate, and the main is a mylar laminate strung with dyneema from CSF. Both are holding up well after 3 years, but I suppose the next 3 years will tell. Starting to see a little bagging in both.

[arsenelupiga]

as you have high performance boat, your fittings should be stronger above average. But maybe double check if you go with no-stretch material as top loads will get higher and damage can occur. Elasticity of cheaper materials lowers top loads and lesser fittings suffice.

Saying that as I have noticed increased top loads replacing halyards with dyneema become aware of that aspect of things.

[Kestrahl]

Originally Posted by fxykty

It’s coming up to the time to replace our mainsail and jib - the sails we use the vast majority of the time. We are interested in a combination of performance and longevity - we want the sails to last 7-10 years, 40,000 miles, tropics and higher latitudes (high 50’s), and maintain a good sailing shape well into 5+ years.

Our current sails are 10 years old, have seen 40,000 miles primarily in the tropics and mid latitudes, and are tri-radial cut Hydranet. Cloth strength is still good, but stitching and tapes are rotting. More importantly, and the reason to replace rather than repair, is that they are both blown out, the main worse than the jib.

For context, our boat is a 16.3m/54’ performance cruising catamaran, with a very large-roached main and a blade self-tacking jib. Sail sizes are 80sqm and 35sqm respectively.

While the Hydranet sails have certainly lasted, they have not kept their shape. That’s been explained to us that because the Spectra is woven into cloth, the Spectra fibres while not stretching much will straighten out as the Polyester (Dacron) fibres woven at 90 degrees stretch, and that effectively stretches the sail in both directions. The Spectra does not add much in terms of retaining the designed sail shape. And the cost is as much as the highest tech sails, so we’re certain they’re not worth their cost.

If we accept that our sails will lose their designed shape, and longevity is most important, then high quality Dacron sails seem to be the best bet. They’re a fraction of the cost of Hydranet, with effectively the same stretch. They will have to be relatively heavy to handle the higher righting moment of our cat.

Then there are the various cruise laminate woven cloths, using some combination of Dyneema and Technora (Kevlar) fibres woven into cloth and laminated with Polyester top layers. Much better shape retention and a lot less weight, but do the laminates stand up to heat and humidity? And these are still woven, so over time the fibres will straighten and the sails lose their designed shapes, though presumably not as dramatically as the Dacron sails. Cost is about double that of Dacron. Hydranet falls into this category, but that cost is on par with the panelled membranes.

Finally there are the panelled membranes such as Doyle’s Stratis and North’s 3Di. Some combinations of Dyneema, Technora and Carbon fibres, glued to a Mylar sheet and laminated with Polyester top layers. Much lighter and best shape retention as nothing is woven, but the same potential problems as the cruise laminates in heat and humidity. Cost is about double that of the cruise laminates and four times that of Dacron.

Thoughts?

Hydra-Net actually has dyneema in both directions. But it does stretch as the warp yarns still have some crimp ( they jump in and out of the weave to reduce crimp ). Dyneema also has more creep than carbon fiber or aramid, but is much better with fatigue and better UV than aramid.
This company https://www.nautosphere.com/ is close to releasing a new woven radial dyneema cloth which with new weaving technology eliminates all the crimp in the dyeema warp yarns. Still it will be expensive.

[davecalvert]

The loads on sails for catamarans like an Outremer 55 are quite high. You can go with the high weights in the best of the dacrons but, do not expect the sails to hold their designed shape very long. You may get 7 to 10 years cloth life but a very short performance life. (The amount of time the sails retain their designed shape) Hydra Net is a good material but, contrary to what most people thing, this is a mix of Dyneema fibers and polyester fibers with the Dyneema fibers forming a "net" in the weave. It is not all Dyneema. This has straight warp fibers of polyester with the Dyneema yarns inserted a few millimeters apart. The fill yarns are all polyester. The warp fibers do not straighten they stretch.
Radial cuts offer much better fiber orientation than cross cut sails. Using a premium cross cut dacron will be much more stretchy than the triradial Hydra Net or a good warp dacron like Warp Drive, from Challenge Sailcloth.
If you want performance (low stretch) and long life on 55 ft catamaran sails, laminates or 3DI are the options. North 3DI is a good product but expensive and not fail proof. We have been using a Dimension Polyant sailcloth called GXLD (Graphite Long Distance) for sails on boats this size and above. This is a Carbon cruise laminate with Spectra taffetas on both sides. The durability is very good and MUCH less stretch than Hydra Net. It is expensive but, not much more than Hydra Net. The designed shape will be there for the life of the material.
Option 2 is a good Spectra cruise laminate at quite a bit less price but not as stable for shape holding.
Cheers, Dave

[slug]

Don’t know your boat and don’t know anything about catamarans

In general cruising boats Benefit from crosscut mainsails

tri radial mainsails , because of the fiber and seem orientation become very troublesome to handle, stiff, on the boom when reefing or folding

In addition the stitched seams on a tri radial main are much more exposed to chafe

This is significant on a rig with aft swept spreaders

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by davecalvert

The loads on sails for catamarans like an Outremer 55 are quite high. You can go with the high weights in the best of the dacrons but, do not expect the sails to hold their designed shape very long. You may get 7 to 10 years cloth life but a very short performance life. (The amount of time the sails retain their designed shape) Hydra Net is a good material but, contrary to what most people thing, this is a mix of Dyneema fibers and polyester fibers with the Dyneema fibers forming a "net" in the weave. It is not all Dyneema. This has straight warp fibers of polyester with the Dyneema yarns inserted a few millimeters apart. The fill yarns are all polyester. The warp fibers do not straighten they stretch.

Radial cuts offer much better fiber orientation than cross cut sails. Using a premium cross cut dacron will be much more stretchy than the triradial Hydra Net or a good warp dacron like Warp Drive, from Challenge Sailcloth.

If you want performance (low stretch) and long life on 55 ft catamaran sails, laminates or 3DI are the options. North 3DI is a good product but expensive and not fail proof. We have been using a Dimension Polyant sailcloth called GXLD (Graphite Long Distance) for sails on boats this size and above. This is a Carbon cruise laminate with Spectra taffetas on both sides. The durability is very good and MUCH less stretch than Hydra Net. It is expensive but, not much more than Hydra Net. The designed shape will be there for the life of the material.

Option 2 is a good Spectra cruise laminate at quite a bit less price but not as stable for shape holding.

Cheers, Dave

Thanks Dave, that all makes sense and you certainly know of what you speak. Cruising laminates then look like what we should favour to save money.

Thanks for the correction about the construction of HydraNet. Our sails are tri-radial cut HydraNet and we certainly are seeing a ton of stretch, especially at the reef points.

The cost of a new HydraNet mainsail for our boat by a local New Zealand loft is the same as for a mainsail from their premium membrane products (Stratis Offshore and 3Di Ocean respectively Doyle and North). Going with one of the online lofts (I got quotes from Precision and Rolly Tasker) put their tri-radial HydraNet mainsail at about the same price as the premium cruising laminates from the two local lofts.

HydraNet just doesn’t seem worth the money.

[Joli]

We use Hydranet triradial construction and have been happy with it. So far this year, with about 12,000 miles, it has held up well. Our main is 1,000 sq. ft. and high aspect. It replaced a spectra laminate that was mildewing from inside the mylar, not pretty, and it had gone round.
I don't like mylar for two reasons, one it shrinks and the shape goes to ****, two it mildews.
We looked at Norths 3di but it is not yet proven, the warranty was only 1 year. And it was horrifically expensive, I think the quote was around $52,000 for the main.
I'm also a big believer in full length battens, the sail is more stable and the leach is will supported.
Good luck with whatever you choose.

[CarlF]

If you go Dacron, the best choice is Challenge High Aspect and Marblehead. I have this on a 55ft ketch and the shape is still excellent after six years. Of course, you need a sailmaker who knows how to design for Dacron - they've mostly died off.

But I would think the weight is a significant drawback for your boat.

http://macksails.com/sail-cloth/

[Kestrahl]

Originally Posted by davecalvert

Hydra Net is a good material but, contrary to what most people thing, this is a mix of Dyneema fibers and polyester fibers with the Dyneema fibers forming a "net" in the weave. It is not all Dyneema. This has straight warp fibers of polyester with the Dyneema yarns inserted a few millimeters apart. The fill yarns are all polyester. The warp fibers do not straighten they stretch.

The original cross cut hydra-net - is as you say a "net" in the weave. It does have dyneema in the warp and the weft but doesn't offer any real advantage in shape holding, but does add tear strength and extend the cloth life over 100% polyester.
The Radial version has quite a high percentage of dyneema, especially in the warp ( load direction) and does have some dyneema in the weft. The warp yarns do still have some crimp and will straighten.

Originally Posted by davecalvert

We have been using a Dimension Polyant sailcloth called GXLD (Graphite Long Distance) for sails on boats this size and above. This is a Carbon cruise laminate with Spectra taffetas on both sides. The durability is very good and MUCH less stretch than Hydra Net. It is expensive but, not much more than Hydra Net. The designed shape will be there for the life of the material.
Cheers, Dave

Yes I agree GXLD is a very solid laminate. And the bonding seems to survive the tropics ok on the superyachts sails I've seen it used on.

[Kestrahl]

Originally Posted by CarlF

If you go Dacron, the best choice is Challenge High Aspect and Marblehead. I have this on a 55ft ketch and the shape is still excellent after six years. Of course, you need a sailmaker who knows how to design for Dacron - they've mostly died off.

But I would think the weight is a significant drawback for your boat.

http://macksails.com/sail-cloth/

The Mack Sails page is a little outdated as Marblehead hasn't been woven with Type 52 and 1W70 yarns since 2003! Its still named the same but woven with different yarns. Anyway from our testing and real life experience ( we seen sails made from marblehead arriving from the US in Malaysia ) the UV resistance isn't that good. But it is a super tight weave and still made in the USA, just perhaps not suited for full time tropical sailing.

[Breaking Waves]

Originally Posted by davecalvert

The designed shape will be there for the life of the material.

sailmakers like to say that, but honestly, it is simply not true in the real world - all highly loaded sails change shape over time/use/iv.

How they change vary's depending on the material and construction . . . but they do all change.

the mylar shrinks in UV exposure.

if you have panels of higher weight and lower weight cloth (as is frequent in higher and lower load area) there will be distortion overtime at the seam joins.

We had 3DL's, they changed shape (and delaminated after that). We had two sets of DP DYS spectra laminate (from different sail makers), they both changed shape (but would I think be a decent choice for foxy). We had GXLD, they changed shape. We had various dacron, which ofc changed in a different way than the laminates.

we sailed a long way using quite a few different sails, and as I said above it is rather unusual to get more than a combined 4 years/40,000 miles out of a highly loaded sail without at least a recut.