Catalina 30 Missing Off Atlantic Coast

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

So far as I am aware, thomm225 has never been on an overnight passage, or a multi-day passage at sea, and neither has Jammer. Jedi and Boatman 61 have many, many such.

Not strictly true. Certainly Jedi and Boatman 61 have more experience than I do, but I'm not here to compare the length of my, er, logbook, to anyone else's.

I was surprised to find how much ambient light there is after dark, and I think most people would probably be surprised how well you can see most nights at sea.

Most nights that is true, especially if you're, say, 26.

Just my opinion, but I don't think reefing the main would be a big challenge on a Catalina 30 in the dark, if you were already familiar with it. You can tell what you're doing by feel, and some vision. I don't think the absence of spreader lights or a forward deck light would be prohibitive. You might want to be more careful, might need to harness up, but I think one could manage without electricity. If the situation was not reparable at sea. Of course, one would prefer to be able to show nav. lights. If you have a kerosene lantern, it might do for the all around white, about the minimum, so people could avoid you...

The point I am trying to make is that the cumulative effect of the loss of all these systems at once has a significant effect that most people don't realize or think about. Sure that can be overcome through a combination of physical strength, youth, experience, number of crew, tenacity, etc. and is at the same time exacerbated by weather and duration.


People get to the point where they are fatigued and overwhelmed, and then they either make poor decisions, or try to prioritize by leaving important tasks undone, or they just give up.

And, if you have a hand bearing compass, some of them have their own light so you can read them.

I am curious whether you have ever actually tried steering with one on a cloudy night with no horizon or directional reference, for more than a few minutes.

[chris95040]

Originally Posted by thomm225

Didn't reinforce it at all but you did.

You don't need engineering knowledge of batteries to make your sailboat move or to cross an ocean.

Your example concerning batteries was just a bad example of what good seamanship is.....

Like I said that's manly important on CF for battery/electronics/electrical discussions

Sigh. You did though, and continue to.

The point was not that 'electrical systems are necessary'.

The point was that we all have our own definition of what's smart and what's stupid so be careful about wishing for a stupidity tax on search and rescues, you may be surprised to find which side of the threshold you are on.

(I, as an electrical engineer, chose to use technology from my domain as an illuminating example of something important *to me* that isn't necessarily important to others.

I could construct a reasonable argument on the importance of electrical understanding based on observations that most folks cant tell a sextant from a sex toy and would be lost without their gadgets, but Ernest Shackleton would be rolling his eyes through it. )

Maybe reading comprehension should be a factor in computing our stupidity tax rate.

[s/v Jedi]

For hand steering a sailboat, you don’t need to look at the compass all the time. You quickly get a feel for the waves, how you counter-steer etc. as well as the rhythm and only use the compass for confirmation every now and then.

My record is 14 hours non-stop apart from some bathroom visits. Most of it surfing down waves. I remember the “lively arrival” at Lowestoft and throwing a line around a dock cleat… then a wee dram of Macallan, followed by deep sleep.

I never again hand steered, I’m on auto pilot before exiting the marina or anchorage

Loosing self steering is the big problem. If you don’t have a solid electrical system then you need windvane steering. Navigation is much less important. During the 14 hours I wrote about above, all I used was a handheld Garmin 12XL pointing with an arrow where to go. Where was their handheld?

Also, I think they were motoring?

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by thomm225

Magellan sailed the Pacific in 1519. He didn't have a clue about amps or amp hours etc

And his ignorance killed him [emoji6]

Not to dump on you, but it was actually 1520 when he reached the Pacific.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

So far as I am aware, thomm225 has never been on an overnight passage, or a multi-day passage at sea, and neither has Jammer. Jedi and Boatman 61 have many, many such.


Ann

Most of my overnighter's were on 16'-20' beach cats if you call getting in by 3 am overnight.

With the Bristol 27 I have now I have crossed 2 shipping channels coming home at midnight and everything was fine until I came into the Norfolk/Virginia Beach Bay Coast Line area then there was so much light pollution from car headlights, range markers, buoys, stop lights, house lights, running lights on ships and smaller boats it made things difficult.

I was about to cross the shipping channel when I got a call from the pilot of this huge container ship. He wanted to know what my plan was. It totally freaked me out and then I looked around my jib where the ship had been hiding and was quite surprised. Needless to say I heaved too for a bit and let him pass. I didn't see him among all the other lights. I had no AIS or chart plotter at that time

It was much easier offshore about 12 miles. It's almost always easier offshore unless you get caught in bad weather and these day with all our sophisticated technology that is pretty easy to avoid unless you are crossing an ocean of something like that and even then with a fast boat you can sail around the fronts (Maxi Cats early 2000's come to mind)

Most recently I did a 55 mile sail up the Bay arriving in a narrow creek to anchor at about 10:30 pm. Very dark in that creek and the tiny buoys weren't lit. It was the first time I really relied on my OpenCPN chart plotter. I actually had my laptop in the cockpit with me as I sailed in

As a teen I was out several times until 3 am usually with no lights or communication. Once I got spun around pulling the anchor mid by at 20 years old. My friend and I had been drinking the whole night as we fished then we were talking as I pulled anchor so I got disoriented as the boat swung around.

Mid bay you can see light almost all around so I used the stars to head North then turned East and made a creek I recognized ending up 7 miles from where my boat trailer was so we just walked to the nearest house and called home for a ride

As far as hand steering for me it has been 5 times I'd say I was on the tiller a long time and all of these were the 100 mile beach cat races. The first and fastest was 12 hours on a slooped rig Nacra 6.0.

Then 14 hours same boat with female crew.

Anoither time again with my main crew my son 20 hours. The race always started white flag at 0700. On this day we got in at 0300 the next day.

Another 0300 finish the following year. So that's two 20 stretches on the tiller.

And lastly single handing my Nacra 17 for 14 hours......same 100 mile Round the Island Race which starts at Ft Walton Beach, FL out Destin Pass which many times at 0730-0800 the wind is light but tide strong thru those jetties, then take a right at the Seabuoy proceed 55-60 miles west in the Gulf enter Pensacola Pass then back to Ft Walton sailing under several bridges along the way.

First race there I did the one we finished in 12 hours was in 1997. There were 82 beach cats on the starting line at 7 am that September.

It was a beautiful site an at that time they were building all those high rise beach condo in Ft Walton, Navarre, and Pensacola Beach so you could see the cranes from many miles away which gave you a good idea of your progress.

Also seeing all those empty beach loungers in front of the expensive hotels was interesting

[thomm225]

ps. Last 100 mile race was on this Nacra 17 with part of those 14 hours steering being from the trapeze........but I was in my 40's then

[Shanachie]

I suspect that this story, like many others, boils down to people misjudging their own abilities and their tolerance for difficult conditions.


How harshly should you judge someone who tries something difficult and fails? It's never pretty when dreams clash with reality.


We all have things we have and haven't done. I haven't crossed oceans, but I've spent 24 hours at the helm several times in smallish boats and tough conditions with just a compass to guide me.



I wonder whether some of the people who boast of long voyages could have done that if their hydraulic autopilot, AIS, radar, chart plotter and other electronic clutter failed.


I've done numerous coastal trips as long as 700 miles, which to me are much more difficult due to shallow water, reefs, etc. Setting an autopilot in open water is not that challenging. I've done that, too.



Everyone's experience and dreams are different. Respect them.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Shanachie

I suspect that this story, like many others, boils down to people misjudging their own abilities and their tolerance for difficult conditions.


How harshly should you judge someone who tries something difficult and fails? It's never pretty when dreams clash with reality.


We all have things we have and haven't done. I haven't crossed oceans, but I've spent 24 hours at the helm several times in smallish boats and tough conditions with just a compass to guide me.



I wonder whether some of the people who boast of long voyages could have done that if their hydraulic autopilot, AIS, radar, chart plotter and other electronic clutter failed.


I've done numerous coastal trips as long as 700 miles, which to me are much more difficult due to shallow water, reefs, etc. Setting an autopilot in open water is not that challenging. I've done that, too.



Everyone's experience and dreams are different. Respect them.

Amen..

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Shanachie

I suspect that this story, like many others, boils down to people misjudging their own abilities and their tolerance for difficult conditions.


How harshly should you judge someone who tries something difficult and fails? It's never pretty when dreams clash with reality.


We all have things we have and haven't done. I haven't crossed oceans, but I've spent 24 hours at the helm several times in smallish boats and tough conditions with just a compass to guide me.



I wonder whether some of the people who boast of long voyages could have done that if their hydraulic autopilot, AIS, radar, chart plotter and other electronic clutter failed.


I've done numerous coastal trips as long as 700 miles, which to me are much more difficult due to shallow water, reefs, etc. Setting an autopilot in open water is not that challenging. I've done that, too.



Everyone's experience and dreams are different. Respect them.

This is completely true. I suspect they never got to build up experience and were pushed into jumping in like this by others with the kind of “do it now” comments mentioned earlier.

I have been sailing for 50 years and I think boatman may even beat that if he would ever admit being old enough for it In all those years you get pushed a little further every sail. Sometimes it’s the weather giving that push, sometimes it’s yourself deciding you’re ready for something you didn’t do before. But we can rely on that experience and it’s funny when we talk about sailing when we meet that we do so many things the same… because we found out the best way to do it probably by doing it a thousand different ways before.

Still now, I need a couple minutes to get used to 50kt gusts or high waves. Luckily I’m on a boat I’ve been on for 20 years so I know her a bit… boatman is on different boats all the time, must be much harder so he also needs to limit exposure to risk more.

It all comes down to a need for being conservative. Getting a feel for what next step you’re ready for, or have a mentor wise enough to keep expectations realistic.

[thomm225]

Folks here on CF have recently chilled out a bit on that "Just Do It" thing which is good.

Many of us when talking to beginners suggest getting a small sailboat now and start learning don't wait for that perfect 30'-45'er or larger.

You can even learn a lot on small power boats from 14'-16' especially when you go offshore about 15 miles or so like we did in our mid teens usually with no communication device at all.

Get a small boat now and start sailing where ever you are. Even inland on a lake you can go on bad weather days and learn. When you do you will most times notice you are the only boat out there

If on the coast especially if sailing and old slow monohull any distance at all you are most like going to get caught in bad weather and will learn from that.

And if the boat is older things will break and you will learn to deal with it. Like failing batteries, no autopilot, jammed roller furling in heavy winds, head sail coming down after head strap failure, leaks from open hatches or ports in heavy weather you forgot to close, squalls, engine failure 20-30 miles from your slip, etc, ,etc

Also if sailing without a chart plotter you learn your land marks and to watch the water for sudden changes in depth especially as you enter creeks or small bays. I had maybe 11 boats before I had one with any instruments at all. You learn things being on the water like that especially if its a power boat and you lose power offshore

Or the wind will come around on you from a new direction at night, crank up and you will then experience being on a lee shore anchor with 25 knot winds and either no motor or a tiny outboard

Or if your anchor decides in a similar situation that it won't hold you have to move at 3:30-4:00 in your underwear in the pitch black.

This can be tough especially if there are multiple pilings for fish traps reaching out 100 yards offshore all the beach you are trying to reanchor on

All that said for new retirees and some of us that have been on the water much of our lives be aware of your age. I'm nearing 70 years old but in my mind when on the boat I'm thinking like I'm 30-40 years old but then realize in certain situations that I'm not like almost falling off the boat 10 miles from shore with no PFD or tether, having trouble getting back on the boat after a swim because I have no ladder! That was easy 10 years ago but doing a pullup on the stern railing and then trying to reenter can be quite the task especially if you are tired from your swim or from scrubbing the boat bottom etc

[hpeer]

I saw elsewhere the rescue ship took photos and the boat was dismasted. I have not seen the photos myself.

This thread has drifted in an interesting way but far from this incident.

It should be obvious (given current reports) that the CORE FAILURE here was the crews very poor risk assessment in route planning.

They had low risk options available (ICW to Beaufort) and chose the high risk option (Oregon Inlet around Hatteras). Through excess confidence, tight schedule, or ignorance is unknown.

Once you have lost your rig and motor your options are pretty limited, to none.

[5BTM]

It did loose the mast.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...d/10899601002/

[Jamme]

Originally Posted by chris95040

1. S&R would probably be spending time practicing the same moves anyways.

2. Do you really want worries of financial liability on your mind when considering whether to call for help? Do you want some dumb dad on an ill prepared boat drowning his whole family because he was afraid to call for help when he finally realized he was in over his head?

3. About half the people here can't even understand the difference between amp hours and amps, yet they cross oceans on boats relying on electrical systems they can't possibly understand. From my perspective, as an electrical engineer, this is irresponsible. I can't believe I share insurance companies with folks designing their own rigs who don't even know trigonometry. There is always someone smarter than you, are you sure you want some kind of stupidity fee for search and rescues? Be careful what you wish for.

Thank you. One of the smarter posts I have read on this forum in a while.

[boatman61]

Good to hear they are safe and well.. with a great tale for the pub..

[Knotical]

Originally Posted by 5BTM

It did loose the mast.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...d/10899601002/

That’s an amazing story and footage, glad the crew aboard Silver Muna were able to spot them, who knows how long did they have before drifting further northeast and without any supplies.

Even dismasted, the C30 survived, can’t help but notice it’s small toy like size compared to the gigantic tanker. ��