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-   -   Leopard 46: Leopard 46 sinks after collision (https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f151/leopard-46-sinks-after-collision-99295.html)

Cotemar 14-03-2013 04:59

Re: Leopard 46 sinks after collision
 
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by dirkdig (Post 1184787)
Where are all these sunk Lagoons?

Apart from on the bottom

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Like CarFax we boaters need BoatFax.

Southern Star 14-03-2013 05:10

Re: Leopard 46 sinks after collision
 
Just as there are unsinkable monohulls (albeit a minority), there are cats that can sink (abeit a minority). My cat also had holes in the originally watertight bulkheads forward for electrical cables for the owner-added electric windlass and aft for wiring from the owner-added solar panels, wind generator and radar. As Pallaran points out, these can be and should be sealed.

Another option for increased pump capacity is to install a Y-valve on the raw water intake to the diesels with a hose into the bilge and a strainer. Since most engine compartments are sealed off from the interior, unless there was damage to the hull/saildrive/seacocks in the engine compartment that is causing the water ingress, these compartments should remain dry and the diesels operational even with the bilge flooded. Again, caution should be taken to ensure that the hole where the hose passes through the bulkhead from the engine compartment to the bilge is properly sealed.

Brad

Factor 14-03-2013 05:32

Re: Leopard 46 sinks after collision
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cotemar (Post 1184786)
This may really be a true statement as only the lightweight cats will have enough buoyancy to keep them floating.
Leopards are the heaviest cats followed by Lagoons.
Fountaine Pajot (FP) is the lightest of the production cats.

Entering a minefield, you never really know till you get them on Load Cells, and not on a travelift scale either - actual loadcells, such as we use for OMR rating.

But based on Manuafactures specs (which are almost certainly going to be very lightships), of the french production cats at around 40-45 feet the FP is a long way from the lightest in the bunch - the Outremer 45

Lagoon 421 (actually 41 ft) 12.2 tonne
FP 44 (actually 43 Ft) 10.5 tonne
Outremer 45 (actually 45 ft!!) 7.25 tonne

The outremer is longer and lighter - no surprise that its faster.

Cotemar 14-03-2013 05:39

Re: Leopard 46 sinks after collision
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Factor (Post 1184836)
Entering a minefield, you never really know till you get them on Load Cells, and not on a travelift scale either - actual loadcells, such as we use for OMR rating.

But based on Manuafactures specs (which are almost certainly going to be very lightships), of the french production cats at around 40-45 feet the FP is a long way from the lightest in the bunch - the Outremer 45

Lagoon 421 (actually 41 ft) 12.2 tonne
FP 44 (actually 43 Ft) 10.5 tonne
Outremer 45 (actually 45 ft!!) 7.25 tonne

The outremer is longer and lighter - no surprise that its faster.

I agree, but I was talking production boats.
Outremer would be inline with Gunboat, but not really a production boat

smj 14-03-2013 05:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cotemar (Post 1184844)

I agree, but I was talking production boats.
Outremer would be inline with Gunboat, but not really a production boat

Outremer is definetly a production boat but not a mass produced charter boat.

Factor 14-03-2013 05:45

Re: Leopard 46 sinks after collision
 
They have been in business for about 25 years I think and done about 300 boats (I think) so I would reckon they are a production boat builder. They certainly aren't a custom builder. And whilst I have no empirical evidence, I suspect that those 250/300 boats have collectively done more circumnavigations than most other manufacturers.

Be that as it may, there is always someone with a lighter faster boat! And I think that lightness is something to be aspired to, not the be all and end all in a cruising boat, but if you can keep it lighter, everything will work better.

(in case you havent guessed I really like the Outremers, the company philosophy and the simple focussed approach definitely a boat on my "would keep it if you gave it to me list". )

Boatguy30 14-03-2013 06:05

Re: Leopard 46 sinks after collision
 
funny thing is all those bilge pumps and wires can let a lot of water in as electric pumps have so check valves and the wiring has to pass thru all the bulkheads. I plan to use buckets.

Cotemar 14-03-2013 06:06

Re: Leopard 46 sinks after collision
 
I would also love to own and Outremer or a Gunboat for that matter.

These boats are just a dream for most cruisers today
They are light, fast and well built, but more importantly expensive and out of the majority of cruisers budgets.

It’s nice to dream, but in the end you buy a boat you can afford to sail now.

s/v Jedi 14-03-2013 06:14

Re: Leopard 46 sinks after collision
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cotemar (Post 1184864)
I would also love to own and Outremer or a Gunboat for that matter.

These boats are just a dream for most cruisers today
They are light, fast and well built, but more importantly expensive and out of the majority of cruisers budgets.

It’s nice to dream, but in the end you buy a boat you can afford to sail now.

There are many cruisers in Outremers... there are different types of cruisers and those who sell everything they own on land have a bigger budget to spend on their new home on the water than those who keep one or two houses , a couple of cars etc. ashore :thumb:

And what is expensive? Look at all those Oysters moving about...

Jimbo485 14-03-2013 06:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cotemar
I would also love to own and Outremer or a Gunboat for that matter.

These boats are just a dream for most cruisers today
They are light, fast and well built, but more importantly expensive and out of the majority of cruisers budgets.

It’s nice to dream, but in the end you buy a boat you can afford to sail now.

Plenty of Outremers cruising but I have not seen a single Gunboat. Used Outremers were under $300k a few years ago. Not sure now.

Cotemar 14-03-2013 07:09

Re: Leopard 46 sinks after collision
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jimbo485 (Post 1184877)
Plenty of Outremers cruising but I have not seen a single Gunboat. Used Outremers were under $300k a few years ago. Not sure now.

I see Gunboats everywhere I go. Usually they are in the 60 foot range with what appears to be an experienced crew with tighty whites on. They anchor with me in Newport Rhode Island all the time.
The cheapest ones are still over 1 million usd.

Jimbo485 14-03-2013 07:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cotemar

I see Gunboats everywhere I go. ........an experienced crew with tighty whites on..

Does that sound like your typical cruiser?

Never seen a Gunboat, ever. There are 2 Outremers about 500 m away with families and kids on board that came across the Atlantic and Pacific. Their clothes are old, no paid crew, the kids go barefeet but have big smiles and speak 3 languages each.

I think you and I hang out in different areas, hey? :)

The Outremer is a high performance production cat.

Cotemar 14-03-2013 07:33

Re: Leopard 46 sinks after collision
 
I am with you. It’s just your perception of a production boat is different from most.
Although, Outremer building 300 catamarans in 25 years is quite impressive.

Lagoon, Leopard and Fountaine Pajot Build hundreds of catamarans every year.
Each of these builders have built thousands of catamarans

minaret 14-03-2013 07:34

Re: Leopard 46 sinks after collision
 
1 Attachment(s)
Nice quality layup there...

Cotemar 14-03-2013 08:07

Re: Leopard 46 sinks after collision
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by minaret (Post 1184951)
Nice quality layup there...

Most cats would look like that if they dragged on rocks for hours while being lifted up on a surf and slammed back down every 30 seconds

Palarran 14-03-2013 08:25

Re: Leopard 46 sinks after collision
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey (Post 1184755)
Regarding holes in boats, standard bilge pumps are intended to remove water from bilges that has arrived from "normal" use and not as an emergency response to a hole in the hull!

David, I disagree with this. The bilge pumps should be capable of handling a broken through hull or hose. As far as a hull breach, IMO it is either cracked, fractured, slightly puntured, OR totally holed which no pump or blocking is going to handle.

You are right about the water tight bulkheads, that really is the only line of defense if totally holed and out to sea.

s/v Jedi 14-03-2013 11:29

Re: Leopard 46 sinks after collision
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Palarran (Post 1184983)
David, I disagree with this. The bilge pumps should be capable of handling a broken through hull or hose. As far as a hull breach, IMO it is either cracked, fractured, slightly puntured, OR totally holed which no pump or blocking is going to handle.

You are right about the water tight bulkheads, that really is the only line of defense if totally holed and out to sea.

Well, I'm with DOJ on this one. While a bilge pump might cope with a leaking valve or fitting, it won't do for a complete failure of one.

Pumps that are meant to copy with holes in the hull are called "crash pumps" and some boats have these; ours is engine mounted and 16,000 gph with an impeller as large as a man's hand and 2.25" plumbing. We have a second one that some might call crashpump which is a Rule 8000 (but the 8,000 gph claim is without hose attached....) which has 3" plumbing. All big pipes and fire engine hoses.

Boatguy30 14-03-2013 11:57

Re: Leopard 46 sinks after collision
 
Any decent offshore multihull should have positive buoyancy when flooded. no need for the fire hoses.

David_Old_Jersey 14-03-2013 12:10

Re: Leopard 46 sinks after collision
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi (Post 1185142)
Well, I'm with DOJ on this one. While a bilge pump might cope with a leaking valve or fitting, it won't do for a complete failure of one.

Actually I only half agree with DOJ :p........I will stick by my contention that the standard bilge pumps are never intended to cope with a complete failure of a skin fitting - but nonetheless they would play an important role in buying time (sinking / flooding more slowly!)......the good things(??!!) about a failed skin fitting is that likely to have a chance of accessing and the hole could well be easily plugged (just add......a plug :D....or simply close the valve :thumb:) - no guarantee of course, possible that half a fitting breaks off :( or the failure creates a non round hole in the hull :(........in the absence of the sound / feel of a collision my first step upon discovering water would be to check the thru hulls.....and hope it was one of those (and ideally only a hose!), rather than the keel having fallen off!

........if the bilge pump does start working unexpectedly, especially if intermitently, also an idea to check whether it is green sea being forced down the anchor pipe and into the bilge.......:whistling:

donradcliffe 14-03-2013 13:02

Re: Leopard 46 sinks after collision
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cormorant (Post 1184395)
I don't know if this has been posted yet, but it's very sobering. A table of the flooding rate per hole diameter, by depth below waterline.

It comes in faster than you might think. A 4" hole 10" below the waterline will give you 1000 gallons per minute.

https://www.bethandevans.com/pdf/Hole...odingtable.pdf

I knew your flow rate was too high, but it took me a minute to figure out why. The table you referenced is correct for inches of hole diameter and FEET below the waterline.

transmitterdan 14-03-2013 13:45

Re: Leopard 46 sinks after collision
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi (Post 1185142)
Well, I'm with DOJ on this one. While a bilge pump might cope with a leaking valve or fitting, it won't do for a complete failure of one.

I think I am in violent agreement with Jedi and DOJ. The pumping system becomes important as a delaying tactic and ultimately to make the boat livable after the flooding is a trickle. Arguing about how big or how many bilge pumps to carry becomes a bit silly when you look at the flooding charts such as the one Evans has posted on his web site. I would guess less than 0.1% of cruising boats have a bilge pump system capable of staying ahead of the smallest thru-hull if broken off and left unplugged.

transmitterdan 14-03-2013 13:51

Re: Leopard 46 sinks after collision
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Boatguy30 (Post 1185175)
Any decent offshore multihull should have positive buoyancy when flooded. no need for the fire hoses.

I am not trying to be cute with this post. Apparently sometimes that isn't clear.

I truly don't understand the benefit of positive buoyancy when flooded as it pertains to safety of life at sea. My questions:

In 15 foot waves is the crew safer on the deck of a flooded boat or a life raft?

Why is a flooded boat that is still technically afloat not a hazard to navigation?

Cotemar 14-03-2013 13:55

Re: Leopard 46 sinks after collision
 
The benefit of positive buoyancy is that you have a big target to find in an infinite ocean. You want to be bigger than a postage stamp.

s/v Jedi 14-03-2013 14:42

Re: Leopard 46 sinks after collision
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by transmitterdan (Post 1185262)
I think I am in violent agreement with Jedi and DOJ. The pumping system becomes important as a delaying tactic and ultimately to make the boat livable after the flooding is a trickle. Arguing about how big or how many bilge pumps to carry becomes a bit silly when you look at the flooding charts such as the one Evans has posted on his web site. I would guess less than 0.1% of cruising boats have a bilge pump system capable of staying ahead of the smallest thru-hull if broken off and left unplugged.

Exactly and only monohulls should come with a crash pump as multi-hulls have enough time with the missing ballast of a monohull.

To all: Instead of all the wooden plugs (take some of those too!) I would recommend to bring some of those big size epoxy sticks that cure under water. These can be used to plug partial thru-hull failures, unlike the wooden plugs. Just don't forget to knead them before use :thumb:

gbanker 14-03-2013 15:06

Re: Leopard 46 sinks after collision
 
Interesting article about a Nordhavn that sank.

Plumbing failure sinks $4.5 million yacht in its slip


There are bildge pumps installed in all boats and most boats do not have "crash" pumps because folks can't agree on what is "reasonable" as to size, number, flow rates, power sources, etc. So, most boat manufacturers install just enough to pass some standard, certification requirement, etc.

Sort of similar thinking to the vehicles we drive on our highways. We have about 35,000 deaths due to driving each year but none of us that I know drive around in Sherman tanks.

virgincapt 30-03-2013 05:33

Re: Leopard 46 sinks after collision
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by smj (Post 1183313)
From what I read the capt. Got a view of the "foam core" while under the boat trying to save it from sinking. Probably an honest mistake.

I was the delivery captain on this boat, and this is true. I had a quick glance underwater and saw the core, assumed foam, but maybe it was balsa.

Also, and very important, is that I never saw nor stated that the boat sank. Most likely she turned turtle and drifted back down wind to Roatan or other Honduran shore. When we abandoned her, she was heavily down by the stbd stern with both eng rooms flooded.

In all these cases of a breached, cored hull, if the production process does not include vacuum bagging, then the interstices of the core are open and so will allow water to travel throughout the core, thus seriously altering flotation qualities of the foam. Thus a cat can surely sink.

Boatguy30 30-03-2013 06:46

Re: Leopard 46 sinks after collision
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by transmitterdan (Post 1185266)
I am not trying to be cute with this post. Apparently sometimes that isn't clear.

I truly don't understand the benefit of positive buoyancy when flooded as it pertains to safety of life at sea. My questions:

In 15 foot waves is the crew safer on the deck of a flooded boat or a life raft?

Why is a flooded boat that is still technically afloat not a hazard to navigation?

if you're afloat there's hope. When the weather clears you can likely make repairs. :popcorn:

Palarran 30-03-2013 07:12

Re: Leopard 46 sinks after collision
 
Hello Virgincapt. Thanks for joining the CF and posting about your experience.

boatman61 30-03-2013 07:30

Re: Leopard 46 sinks after collision
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Palarran (Post 1198328)
Hello Virgincapt. Thanks for joining the CF and posting about your experience.

I'll second that..:thumb:

mcarling 31-03-2013 15:22

Re: Leopard 46 sinks after collision
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by virgincapt (Post 1198285)
In all these cases of a breached, cored hull, if the production process does not include vacuum bagging, then the interstices of the core are open and so will allow water to travel throughout the core, thus seriously altering flotation qualities of the foam.

Foam can be either open-cell or closed-cell. Open-cell foam is like a sponge. Closed-cell foam is more or less waterproof.

s/v Jedi 31-03-2013 15:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcarling (Post 1199216)

Foam can be either open-cell or closed-cell. Open-cell foam is like a sponge. Closed-cell foam is more or less waterproof.

But still little blocks just like balsa for parts that are rounded, right?

mcarling 31-03-2013 15:56

Re: Leopard 46 sinks after collision
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi (Post 1199234)
But still little blocks just like balsa for parts that are rounded, right?

It doesn't have to be. Many types of foam can be sprayed into oddly shaped spaces.

See for example:
GREAT STUFF 16 oz. Gaps and Cracks Insulating Foam Sealant-162848 at The Home Depot

s/v Jedi 31-03-2013 16:00

Re: Leopard 46 sinks after collision
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mcarling (Post 1199240)
It doesn't have to be. Many types of foam can be sprayed into oddly shaped spaces.

See for example:
GREAT STUFF 16 oz. Gaps and Cracks Insulating Foam Sealant-162848 at The Home Depot

:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:
You use that for a fiberglass hull as core material?!

mcarling 31-03-2013 16:05

Re: Leopard 46 sinks after collision
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi (Post 1199244)
You use that for a fiberglass hull as core material?

No, but it could be used for adding buoyancy. Filling nooks and crannies with closed-cell spray foam will prevent water from entering those spaces.

SVNeko 31-03-2013 16:09

Re: Leopard 46 sinks after collision
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mcarling (Post 1199249)
No, but it could be used for adding buoyancy. Filling nooks and crannies with closed-cell spray foam will prevent water from entering those spaces.

Man, I can just see the mess this would make in a saltwater environment after its adhesion breaks down and it starts to disintegrate into a powder.

Richard5 31-03-2013 16:31

Re: Leopard 46 sinks after collision
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by chris smith (Post 1175047)

I am quite surprised that the Captain did not feel any impact when they hit ‘something’. If you ever hit the dock while docking at low speed, you feel the whole boat shake, I would expect an impact like this would throw one out of his bunk, or at least the helmsman would notice.

On a trip up the coast of California we hove to in violent weather. Sometime that night something metal, painted gray hit the bow and smashed down the stbd side. 3 planks were missing and the bow stove in. None of the 3 aboard felt a thing. No alcohol or drugs were involved. The damage wasn't even discovered for hours later when the fwd berth was found to be sopping wet.

s/v Jedi 31-03-2013 17:58

Re: Leopard 46 sinks after collision
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SVNeko (Post 1199252)
Man, I can just see the mess this would make in a saltwater environment after its adhesion breaks down and it starts to disintegrate into a powder.

yes LOL. I already gave up this discussion because expanding foam to fill voids around floors in houses has nothing to do with a sinking Leopard 46 :banghead:

cwyckham 01-04-2013 01:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcarling (Post 1199249)

No, but it could be used for adding buoyancy. Filling nooks and crannies with closed-cell spray foam will prevent water from entering those spaces.

Let's keep this to actual materials and techniques used by actual boat builders, shall we?

Mr B 01-04-2013 03:02

Re: Leopard 46 sinks after collision
 
Can any one on here tell me what the best material is to fill voids with on My Cat, Stuff that actually floats in water,

I had six supplied bilge pumps with mine, and a manual 1 and a 1/2 inch pump, Total waste of time,
If you have a hole in your boat, you need a very big pump to get the water out,

David_Old_Jersey 01-04-2013 03:44

Re: Leopard 46 sinks after collision
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SVNeko (Post 1199252)
Man, I can just see the mess this would make in a saltwater environment after its adhesion breaks down and it starts to disintegrate into a powder.

The cathedral hulled dories (popular in the 70's - pre RIBS) that were filled with foam discovered the joys of waterlogged and disintegrating foam - the only "cure" was complete removal.


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