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-   -   It Starts with Training (https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f129/it-starts-with-training-68282.html)

Domenic 16-09-2011 22:27

It Starts with Training
 
Not to blow anyone’s dream, but rather…to aid in it coming true.
I have seen there are many on the forum who are new to boating.
If one wanted to learn to fly jet aircraft, they would not start by going solo in an F16.
The normal course of training would be single engine light aircraft, with an instructor. In time they would advance into more powerful aircraft.
The same should be applied to those wishing to sail. Most good sailors started on small un-ballasted boats, such as, El Toro’s. These little vessels teach one to get the feeling for a boats movement. This is a very critical point in training. If you have ever sailed with well trained sailors, they can feel what their vessel will do before it does it. They will trim sails, or course in order to maintain complete control of their vessel.
When ever I hear someone who has never learned to sail, announce, “I’m buying a forty foot sailboat. Get a young honey, and sail to Paradise.” It takes my breath away. They have no idea they are like the guy who has never flown an aircraft, who buys an F16, and is planning of flying it at the next big air show.
Take the right course. Before the boat of your dream turns into your worst nightmare,buy a small un-ballasted sailboat, and a life jacket…find a small body of water, and learn the feel of a boat. If you can’t master the small boat…do not buy the big one.

Palarran 16-09-2011 23:20

Re: It starts with training .
 
What you really don't understand is that if you can afford to buy an F-16, you don't care what Domenic thinks. Please don't over-complicate the ability to sail - that's the truly easy part. Learning your navigation, motor, watermaker, etc, etc - that's the hard part.

Take a guy and stick him on a 20' boat for a week or a 40' - at the end, they will be roughly equal sailors - IMO. It's just going to take the guy with the 40'er longer to learn all the systems. Maybe like 3 weeks longer, provided he actually tries.

I do like the idea of getting the young honey though. Great idea as a matter of fact. Good luck.

pillum 16-09-2011 23:22

Re: It starts with training .
 
Domenic, your not, by chance, an instructor looking for business? :whistling:

hummingway 16-09-2011 23:35

Re: It starts with training .
 
Yeah, the F16 analogy is pretty weak. Drop the sails or turn off the engine and a boat still floats. Not about to suck a goose into the engine, though icing up is a possibility, still 5 knots probably looks like standing still to whatever an F16 does and should I hit a mountain I'll probably be just fine even if the boat suffers.

There's nothing wrong with getting some training but let's keep it in perspective.

Domenic 16-09-2011 23:57

Re: It starts with training .
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by pillum (Post 776969)
Domenic, your not, by chance, an instructor looking for business? :whistling:

No I'm not. Those who think they can be trained in three weeks are fools. Sailing is about more than sail trim, or which point of the wind your on.

rgscpat 17-09-2011 00:50

Re: It starts with training .
 
Different instructors will teach you different things, and so will different boats.
Some boats will teach you the immediate fundamentals of sail trim very well and other boats will teach you how to care for boat systems. And some unfortunate boats will teach you what you don't want in a boat. Trying a variety of learning methods is a good thing.

bbolin 17-09-2011 01:38

Re: It starts with training .
 
I may be the exact person you are speaking of.

A few years back my wife and I decided to start sailing. I grew up with ski boats and playing on the water. Very little sailing! We started with a week long ASA sailing class followed by chartering. From there we started looking for a boat of our own. It took over a year to learn what we wanted in a first boat to sail around the San Juans. Finally we found a 30ft about a month ago.

All the reading on-line, books we have bought have helped my knowledge of rules and concepts, but we still have lots to learn. It will take years of going out and doing it before we have a general understanding sailing.

The long term goal is to cruse the south pacific. It will take years to get there!

My advise is get on a boat of any kind and go do it. Good instruction is a great start but it is just a start. You need to go out and be a novice sailor. No substitute for experience.

My humble impute as a rookie

sailorboy1 17-09-2011 04:17

Re: It starts with training .
 
I hate this "you have to start small to learn how to sail" crap. I've never even sailed a boat smaller than 33' and consider myself a good sailor.

Sailing is easy to do! Sailing well just takes some time to experience the various conditions. If you're an idiot it doesn't matter what size boat you are in, you're still an idiot.

Lets stop this you "have to learn on small boats" story and just encourage people to go sailing!

imagine2frolic 17-09-2011 04:50

Re: It starts with training .
 
People start out with no experience at all, and they survive. The Bumfuzzles are the example of that. Starting out with basic lessons in a structured way make it quicker, and safer. You will start with less bad habits.

A small dinghy sailor will react quickly. Where a 30ft. cruiser will be slower, but have tons of inertia when you hit the dock, or another boat. You double the sail size, and you way more than double the forces.

Extended sailing is way more than just sailing. You will need to become self suffecient. You can have a complicated 30ftr., or a simple 50ftr. It depends on the systems on the boat. It's a lifetime of learning, and tweaking what you have already learned. BEST WISHES in finding what you seek.........i2f

David_Old_Jersey 17-09-2011 05:02

Re: It starts with training .
 
I always like people I have never heard of telling me how things should be.........

If you need an F16, perhaps it is time to re-evaluate your business model?

Rakuflames 17-09-2011 05:03

Re: It starts with training .
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rgscpat (Post 776984)
Different instructors will teach you different things, and so will different boats.
Some boats will teach you the immediate fundamentals of sail trim very well and other boats will teach you how to care for boat systems. And some unfortunate boats will teach you what you don't want in a boat. Trying a variety of learning methods is a good thing.


I learned on a small boat and they have some major limitations.

I can't turtle my hunter by shifting my weight at the wrong time, for instance.

Small boats *cannot* teach a person one of the most important safety sailing lessons -- how to reef early.

You don't learn to tether yourself before going to the mast in rough weather, something that saved a neighbor's life last May.

It doesn't teach you how to dock a bigger boat. What's the point of a bigger boat if you can't leave the dock?

I DO believe in learning the basics, but learning to sail can be over-rated and you'll still be confused when you step on a larger boat.

This person should sail -- and crew HARD -- on as many boats as he can. Ideally he should find a sailing mentor who will let him single-hand the boat they are on some, so he is responsible for everything.

boatman61 17-09-2011 05:07

Re: It starts with training .
 
He's right tho'.....
We all need the training...
Some chose 'Monkey See... Monkey Do....'
Others go out and train themselves in the 'School of Hard Knocks'
I know who learns a lot more... and has a lot more experience/confidence....:p

Rakuflames 17-09-2011 05:08

Re: It starts with training .
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey (Post 777049)
I always like people I have never heard of telling me how things should be.........

If you need an F16, perhaps it is time to re-evaluate your business model?


i don't quite understand, David ... of course you will find people here you have never heard of. I got some REALLY bad advice from a name you would probably recognize, to wit -- that a genny sheet that went only to the block on the track and did not reach the winch was safe and adequate.

Dummy that I was, I believed it, and when the wind picked up to 18k there was no way I could get the genny in. All that mechanical advantage aft of the block and track was there for a reason, it turns out ...

Olorin 17-09-2011 05:11

Re: It starts with training .
 
I met a man and his wife who took this approach to learning to sail.
1) They researched the type of boat on which they thought they would like to extensively cruise. (Nothing wild, a ~37' solidly built monohull ketch.)
2) They bought the boat.
3) They hired an experienced skipper to sail the boat for two weeks: the first week they watched him do everything; the second week they did everything and he offered advice.
4) They sailed across the Atlantic.

These are very smart people who grasped things very quickly. They've been sailing on that boat for more than a decade.

Personally, I'm taking a more cautious approach but I applaud them on their ability to get out cruising.

Rakuflames 17-09-2011 05:19

Re: It starts with training .
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Olorin (Post 777056)
I met a man and his wife who took this approach to learning to sail.
1) They researched the type of boat on which they thought they would like to extensively cruise. (Nothing wild, a ~37' solidly built monohull ketch.)
2) They bought the boat.
3) They hired an experienced skipper to sail the boat for two weeks: the first week they watched him do everything; the second week they did everything and he offered advice.
4) They sailed across the Atlantic.

These are very smart people who grasped things very quickly. They've been sailing on that boat for more than a decade.

Personally, I'm taking a more cautious approach but I applaud them on their ability to get out cruising.

The fast track to learning to sail -- IMO -- is to take a basic course, then hire a really competent sailor who is a good teacher to sail with you on your boat.

However, there are extremely valuable lessons about the details of what you will learn that are only learned from experience, and it is my strong personal opinion that wise people sail where Boat US can come and get them to build their experience.

VirtualVagabond 17-09-2011 05:21

Re: It starts with training .
 
Sailing is a bit like posting on a forum... any idiot can have a go, and if you totally cock it up, everyone around you will let you know and point you in the right direction... :whistling:

I don't know what you've been drinking, Domenic, but make sure you lay off that jungle juice at least 48 hours before you plan to take your boat out... https://www.cruisersforum.com/images/...n_rolleyes.gif

coyfish9906 17-09-2011 05:47

Im one of those greenhorns....im buying a 24' bristlol next wk and never ever raised a sail in my life ....yet....
I know I will be okay because I have a leg up on most new sailers. I can navigate, I know the rules of traffic, I can operate and care for any diesel engine out their and many more skills I've picked up from being a commercial fisherman. I started that job with out ever steping on a boat. When anyone is called to sea, it takes a certain constitution to enjoy it and learn from it. No amount of training could prepare you for 30' seas or what u should do when your adrift....experience can and unless things have changed there's only one way to get that..
Also I have tried to crew on other ppls boats but if seems no one would be willing to take me on with the little exp I have, so what can you do but do it you're self...

lorenzo b 17-09-2011 06:23

Re: It starts with training .
 
I bought my very first boat at age 65, a 63 ft, 70 ton steel shrimp boat, and was very pleased at how graciously other boaters stayed clear while I learned to steer the damn thing up and down the ICW. The only things I hit were some anchored barges, channel markers, and one old dock. Still floating and getting a little better every day.
Gotta love that steel.

Rakuflames 17-09-2011 06:24

Re: It starts with training .
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by coyfish9906 (Post 777076)
Im one of those greenhorns....im buying a 24' bristlol next wk and never ever raised a sail in my life ....yet....
I know I will be okay because I have a leg up on most new sailers. I can navigate, I know the rules of traffic, I can operate and care for any diesel engine out their and many more skills I've picked up from being a commercial fisherman. I started that job with out ever steping on a boat. When anyone is called to sea, it takes a certain constitution to enjoy it and learn from it. No amount of training could prepare you for 30' seas or what u should do when your adrift....experience can and unless things have changed there's only one way to get that..
Also I have tried to crew on other ppls boats but if seems no one would be willing to take me on with the little exp I have, so what can you do but do it you're self...

Personally I think that's a great size to start with. I started with a 25'. I could single-hand her sooner and I learned a whole lot just from sailing her. Then something really hairy would happen. After I stopped shaking I'd compare what I did to what I should have done, and my sailing skills improved.

coyfish9906 17-09-2011 06:36

Lol I've done my share of shaking. My first trip out to sea..we were purse saining for squid at night, 100 miles off shore and my skip charged me with being the skift driver, towing the net off the stern and then towing the boat when they shut down the auxiliary. Two inches of diesel was floating in my skift and u had to pull a shoe string to shut her off. Lol she caught fire while I was towing her, at nite. No radio and nothing but a line to pull my self back to the boat.
I think I put the flames out when I wet my pants...lol not to hi jack the thread. Just thought id share that..

osirissail 17-09-2011 06:43

Re: It starts with training .
 
There are as many different ways to get into sailing/cruising as there are different makes/models of sailboats. Generally they all work out in the end. Many of the new sailboats are really power boats with masts to make them look like sailboats or at least that is what the new owners think as they motor around and never raise the sails. Whatever works for you . . .
- - I would recommend starting "small" with a dinghy or cubby size sailboat for those with a very limited budget who want to sail but cannot take the "plunge" right away into a large boat. For limited budget sailors, getting experience under your belt first will help when it comes time to buy "that boat" in that you will have experience in what you really want in the boat and not waste precious resources on something that is not appropriate to your needs.

s/v Moondancer 17-09-2011 06:57

Re: It starts with training .
 
Domenic,

I find it quite amazing that people who would want their, doctor, dentist, lawyer to be well trained and experienced are happy to get on a boat with someone who has no training or experience.

We live on a boat in the Caribbean and frequently meet people who have 'bitten off more than they can chew' and have scared the hell out of themselves.

As to sailors who learned in small boats and graduate to bigger boats...they are the sailors who can put a big boat on a mooring under sail, get it back in its slip when the engine quits without calling Sea Tow, or nail a MOB under sail in any conditions.

Well said Dominic! I hope that at least some beginners will take note.

Domenic 17-09-2011 07:04

Re: It starts with training .
 
RAKUFLAMES, lets put your theory to the test. You’re on the East Coast. You decide to buy a sailboat, and sail across the Atlantic ocean. The boat is 45’, equipped with everything including a lifelong pass to Disney World. You hire a guy from one of the local sailing schools to sail with you for two weeks. The first week you, and three friends watch, and make notes of everything the Master Skipper does. The second week the Master Skipper turned the vessel over to you, and your friends, and corrects any mistakes you make. At the end of the two weeks, he gives the four of you a Sailing Certificate trimmed in gold, with a big seal, and his signature. As you’re stocking the vessel with food stuff for the Grand Adventure, four young women ask if they can sun bath topless on your 45’ dream boat. Four days later your ready to set sail…the young girls are impressed with your sailing certificates, and ask if they can sail to Europe with you. You agree, and at dawn on the out going tide, you leave the harbor, and enter the Atlantic Ocean…You don’t know everything, but your motto is, “Learn as you go.”
Three days out you receive a radio report…a 300 mile wide hurricane is heading North , by North West at 16 miles per hour, and has a wind speed of 160 MPH. 12 hours later, your vessel is within the storm. You, and your trusty crew of three, and three young girls fight the weather for the next 24 hours…your doing great…learning as you go. You lose all power, nothing works. You are fighting the sea with sail, and two weeks of traing under your belt. You agree with your three friends when they say, “We have to get the hell out of this.”
So here is my question; How do you locate your position in the storm, and which way do you sail to get out of it? Learn as you go, right?

Just to be a butt head, lets make the three gals 17, and their fathers cops.

hoppy 17-09-2011 07:15

Re: It starts with training .
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Domenic (Post 776956)
When ever I hear someone who has never learned to sail, announce, “I’m buying a forty foot sailboat. Get a young honey, and sail to Paradise.” It takes my breath away.

I learnt to sail in a dingy and can see the advantages, but sometimes you just don't have time to do anything except go from zero to hero or become a buddihist and hope you eventually get reincarnated as someone who can take the slow path in a later lifetime. I have noticed in the past few weeks that many bigger boat owners are counting down to death (or retired). At 46 I'm a baby.

I would suggest that people who have never sailed should do a skippered charter on their dream boat or at least one of similar size to see if it comes even close to what they dream it will be like. During the charter you also start to learn some of the basics and then go off and do training appropriate for your dream boat or even hire an instructor to come with you on your new boat

coyfish9906 17-09-2011 07:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Domenic
RAKUFLAMES, lets put your theory to the test. You’re on the East Coast. You decide to buy a sailboat, and sail across the Atlantic ocean. The boat is 45’, equipped with everything including a lifelong pass to Disney World. You hire a guy from one of the local sailing schools to sail with you for two weeks. The first week you, and three friends watch, and make notes of everything the Master Skipper does. The second week the Master Skipper turned the vessel over to you, and your friends, and corrects any mistakes you make. At the end of the two weeks, he gives the four of you a Sailing Certificate trimmed in gold, with a big seal, and his signature. As you’re stocking the vessel with food stuff for the Grand Adventure, four young women ask if they can sun bath topless on your 45’ dream boat. Four days later your ready to set sail…the young girls are impressed with your sailing certificates, and ask if they can sail to Europe with you. You agree, and at dawn on the out going tide, you leave the harbor, and enter the Atlantic Ocean…You don’t know everything, but your motto is, “Learn as you go.”
Three days out you receive a radio report…a 300 mile wide hurricane is heading North , by North West at 16 miles per hour, and has a wind speed of 160 MPH. 12 hours later, your vessel is within the storm. You, and your trusty crew of three, and three young girls fight the weather for the next 24 hours…your doing great…learning as you go. You lose all power, nothing works. You are fighting the sea with sail, and two weeks of traing under your belt. You agree with your three friends when they say, “We have to get the hell out of this.”
So here is my question; How do you locate your position in the storm, and which way do you sail to get out of it? Learn as you go, right?

Just to be a butt head, lets make the three gals 17, and their fathers cops.

In theory anything is possible. Like I said, it takes a certain constitution to do these things, learn from it and enjoy it. Did your school teach you to be level headed and to stay calm when something bad was happening? Even if they did it took you going through it your first time to build your confidence to do it the next. No amount of certificates can save your @$$ when the sea takes you for a ride,

Domenic 17-09-2011 07:21

Re: It starts with training .
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by s/v Moondancer (Post 777110)
Domenic,

I find it quite amazing that people who would want their, doctor, dentist, lawyer to be well trained and experienced are happy to get on a boat with someone who has no training or experience.

We live on a boat in the Caribbean and frequently meet people who have 'bitten off more than they can chew' and have scared the hell out of themselves.

As to sailors who learned in small boats and graduate to bigger boats...they are the sailors who can put a big boat on a mooring under sail, get it back in its slip when the engine quits without calling Sea Tow, or nail a MOB under sail in any conditions.

Well said Dominic! I hope that at least some beginners will take note.

Moondancer, It's not funny, it's sad...one fellow on this thread even suggested I not drink before I go sailing. Is the SS ship of Fools anchored in these waters?

Rakuflames 17-09-2011 07:28

Re: It starts with training .
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by osirissail (Post 777101)
There are as many different ways to get into sailing/cruising as there are different makes/models of sailboats. Generally they all work out in the end. Many of the new sailboats are really power boats with masts to make them look like sailboats or at least that is what the new owners think as they motor around and never raise the sails. Whatever works for you . . .
- - I would recommend starting "small" with a dinghy or cubby size sailboat for those with a very limited budget who want to sail but cannot take the "plunge" right away into a large boat. For limited budget sailors, getting experience under your belt first will help when it comes time to buy "that boat" in that you will have experience in what you really want in the boat and not waste precious resources on something that is not appropriate to your needs.

I personally don't think a dinghy is the way to start. They're too vulnerable if a sudden storm comes up. I started with a 25' boat after a short sailing course and was doing well in no time. I say get a boat with a real keel that's unlikely to tip you over in a strong wind or if you move wrong suddenly.

Rakuflames 17-09-2011 07:33

Re: It starts with training .
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by s/v Moondancer (Post 777110)
Domenic,

I find it quite amazing that people who would want their, doctor, dentist, lawyer to be well trained and experienced are happy to get on a boat with someone who has no training or experience.

We live on a boat in the Caribbean and frequently meet people who have 'bitten off more than they can chew' and have scared the hell out of themselves.

As to sailors who learned in small boats and graduate to bigger boats...they are the sailors who can put a big boat on a mooring under sail, get it back in its slip when the engine quits without calling Sea Tow, or nail a MOB under sail in any conditions.

Well said Dominic! I hope that at least some beginners will take note.

I think it takes a LOT of experience to dock a big boat under sail. I don't think the fact that i can't do that yet means I shouldn't be on the water. i should be somewhere Boat US goes when I'm docking. Another option is to have auxiliary power. I know how to put my outboard motor on my dinghy and use it as a tugboat.

You have to know your limitations, but if sailing were restricted to those who can dock a big boat under sail, very few people would be sailing, and when they died off there would be no one left to sail. With my experience, I don't go anywhere Boat US doesn't go.

It takes a long time to acquire some skills. You can get the basic ones pretty quickly. After that, it's important to sail enough that you know your limitations so you can choose trips that don't put you and anyone else on your boat in danger.

boatman61 17-09-2011 07:38

Re: It starts with training .
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Domenic (Post 777114)
RAKUFLAMES, lets put your theory to the test. You’re on the East Coast. You decide to buy a sailboat, and sail across the Atlantic ocean. The boat is 45’, equipped with everything including a lifelong pass to Disney World. You hire a guy from one of the local sailing schools to sail with you for two weeks. The first week you, and three friends watch, and make notes of everything the Master Skipper does. The second week the Master Skipper turned the vessel over to you, and your friends, and corrects any mistakes you make. At the end of the two weeks, he gives the four of you a Sailing Certificate trimmed in gold, with a big seal, and his signature. As you’re stocking the vessel with food stuff for the Grand Adventure, four young women ask if they can sun bath topless on your 45’ dream boat. Four days later your ready to set sail…the young girls are impressed with your sailing certificates, and ask if they can sail to Europe with you. You agree, and at dawn on the out going tide, you leave the harbor, and enter the Atlantic Ocean…You don’t know everything, but your motto is, “Learn as you go.”
Three days out you receive a radio report…a 300 mile wide hurricane is heading North , by North West at 16 miles per hour, and has a wind speed of 160 MPH. 12 hours later, your vessel is within the storm. You, and your trusty crew of three, and three young girls fight the weather for the next 24 hours…your doing great…learning as you go. You lose all power, nothing works. You are fighting the sea with sail, and two weeks of traing under your belt. You agree with your three friends when they say, “We have to get the hell out of this.”
So here is my question; How do you locate your position in the storm, and which way do you sail to get out of it? Learn as you go, right?

Just to be a butt head, lets make the three gals 17, and their fathers cops.

Simple.... Heave to... go to bed... and comfort the girls...;)
Why fight it.... You Know It Makes Sense...

Domenic 17-09-2011 07:39

Re: It starts with training .
 
RAKUFLAMES, I took a second look at my first post...I did say, "Find a small body of water."
You skirted around my question on how to find your location in the storm of storms, and how to get out of it.

Please understand, I am not using you as a target, their are some very stupid people on this thread...maybe just one person can get the sense of what is being said.

Rakuflames 17-09-2011 07:47

Re: It starts with training .
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Domenic (Post 777114)
RAKUFLAMES, lets put your theory to the test. You’re on the East Coast. You decide to buy a sailboat, and sail across the Atlantic ocean. The boat is 45’, equipped with everything including a lifelong pass to Disney World. You hire a guy from one of the local sailing schools to sail with you for two weeks. The first week you, and three friends watch, and make notes of everything the Master Skipper does. The second week the Master Skipper turned the vessel over to you, and your friends, and corrects any mistakes you make. At the end of the two weeks, he gives the four of you a Sailing Certificate trimmed in gold, with a big seal, and his signature. As you’re stocking the vessel with food stuff for the Grand Adventure, four young women ask if they can sun bath topless on your 45’ dream boat. Four days later your ready to set sail…the young girls are impressed with your sailing certificates, and ask if they can sail to Europe with you. You agree, and at dawn on the out going tide, you leave the harbor, and enter the Atlantic Ocean…You don’t know everything, but your motto is, “Learn as you go.”
Three days out you receive a radio report…a 300 mile wide hurricane is heading North , by North West at 16 miles per hour, and has a wind speed of 160 MPH. 12 hours later, your vessel is within the storm. You, and your trusty crew of three, and three young girls fight the weather for the next 24 hours…your doing great…learning as you go. You lose all power, nothing works. You are fighting the sea with sail, and two weeks of traing under your belt. You agree with your three friends when they say, “We have to get the hell out of this.”
So here is my question; How do you locate your position in the storm, and which way do you sail to get out of it? Learn as you go, right?

Just to be a butt head, lets make the three gals 17, and their fathers cops.



Domenic, i don't know whose "theory" you just put to the test, but it wasn't mine. I wouldn't be taking ANY boat, 45' or any other size, across the Atlantic. (And I most certainly wouldn't be doing it, even as crew on someone else's boat, during hurricane season). I don't have the experience and skills to do that even taking the hurricane out of the equation.

I have NOT advocated ONLY learning by doing. Someone else said that. I have advocated methodical, trained learning over and over and over. I ADD to that, practicing on your own. Nowhere did I say "practice on your own by buying a huge boat and then sail across the Atlantic with a bunch of teenagers during Hurricane season." (I also think it's useful to read books IN ADDITION -- but one cannot learn to sail -- safely -- from a book alone.)

I am NOT the person who said 'watch someone else for a week and then sail it yourself under supervision the next week,' either. I would never say that and never endorse it, and in fact I disagreed with it when it was said here.

My motto is NOT "Learn as you go!" I can't imagine where you got that from my posts. I've taken numerous classes, not only on sailing, but reading a chart, using a chart plotter, safety classes, coastal navigation, private lessons, and lots of lessons from more experienced sailors. I have ALSO sailed my boat on my own. Only time I've gotten in big trouble is when I ignored what more seasoned sailors taught me.

And, by the way, by the time you've been caught in a hurricane it's too late to "try to figure out where you are." Even a sextant won't help there, assuming you know how to use one, because it gets all cloudy and stuff in a hurricane. :)

The scenario you described is one of hundreds (in spite of the sarcasm regarding Disneyworld, etc.) why I do NOT recommend self-teaching. I had a self-taught sailor on my boat last spring and it was astounding what he did NOT know in spite of all the time he had spent at his tiller. But he was always absolutely certain he was right. We spent most of the time arguing. If we'd continued on that trip I would have put him off the boat. I couldn't have trusted his judgment on a watch. (Besides that, he was irritating as hell.)

lorenzo b 17-09-2011 07:51

Re: It starts with training .
 
Quote
So here is my question; How do you locate your position in the storm, and which way do you sail to get out of it? *Learn as you go,* right?

Why would you care what your position is? You're not going anywhere till the storm passes.

Rakuflames 17-09-2011 07:52

Re: It starts with training .
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by coyfish9906 (Post 777098)
Lol I've done my share of shaking. My first trip out to sea..we were purse saining for squid at night, 100 miles off shore and my skip charged me with being the skift driver, towing the net off the stern and then towing the boat when they shut down the auxiliary. Two inches of diesel was floating in my skift and u had to pull a shoe string to shut her off. Lol she caught fire while I was towing her, at nite. No radio and nothing but a line to pull my self back to the boat.
I think I put the flames out when I wet my pants...lol not to hi jack the thread. Just thought id share that..


I hate myself for it, but I laughed at that!

The biggest single mistake I ever made (given my shorter amount of experience than many here) was what I did before I ever got on the boat:

I let someone else decide whether I should go out that day or not.

If I had checked the weather *myself* instead of just trusting others who had bigger boats and more experience, I would have just stayed at our location for another day, put my sailing companion on someone else's boat and just motored back the next day.

But I didn't make that call myself, and from that followed several very pointed lessons about what not to do in rough seas and 20 knot winds in a small, tender boat. But the big lesson was to decide for myself whether to even go out.

vintageray 17-09-2011 07:57

Re: It starts with training .
 
Not sure I understand how learning to sail on a dinghy is supposed to help you deal with 160 mph winds.
Some people need training wheels and a parent on each side, some get on and cautiously learn to ride.

boatman61 17-09-2011 08:03

Re: It starts with training .
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Domenic (Post 777134)
RAKUFLAMES, I took a second look at my first post...I did say, "Find a small body of water."
You skirted around my question on how to find your location in the storm of storms, and how to get out of it.

Please understand, I am not using you as a target, their are some very stupid people on this thread...maybe just one person can get the sense of what is being said.

We get the sense... but you are maybe not....
Just because folks pass exams and get a bit of paper does not make make them any smarter or stupider than the DIY method..
Once you grasp the basics and which rope does what its down to experimentation...
I've known folks who've done the tests and are downright dangerous...
They know they're always right... they have the bit of paper to prove it...
Us DIY'ers.... hell we know we don't know it all...
you guys never stop telling us...:p

kerrydeare 17-09-2011 08:05

Re: It starts with training .
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Domenic (Post 776956)
... a very critical point in training ... Take the right course ...

I may be a slow learner, but after decades of sailing and cruising, many courses, endless encounters and discussions with experienced folks, and many thousands of inshore and offshore miles, I'm still in training. I'd guess it also ends with training.

Rakuflames 17-09-2011 08:05

Re: It starts with training .
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by vintageray (Post 777144)
Not sure I understand how learning to sail on a dinghy is supposed to help you deal with 160 mph winds.
Some people need training wheels and a parent on each side, some get on and cautiously learn to ride.


How many people do you know who have been caught in 160 mph winds?

The question is, can you deal with the much more common 30 - 40? You won't learn to do that in a dinghy. It will throw your rosy red *ss right into the drink before you ever get there, and the great majority of dinghies don't have reefing.

Some of it IS just experience. A guy in my marina decided to reef instead of motoring or anchoring in a bad storm. After sailing with the storm for 4 1/2 hours he was ...

ONE HUNDRED MILES south of where he'd been when he reefed. IMO he's really lucky he wasn't pushed aground and bashed up real good by the waves.

That kind of storm will catch you sooner or later if you sail. I was lucky the only time it's happened to me so far because I was in very familiar waters. If you're having any fun at all, you probably won't be that lucky. :)

Rakuflames 17-09-2011 08:10

Re: It starts with training .
 
[QUOTE
Originally Posted by Domenic https://cdn.cruisersforum.com/forums/...s/viewpost.gif
RAKUFLAMES, I took a second look at my first post...I did say, "Find a small body of water."
You skirted around my question on how to find your location in the storm of storms, and how to get out of it.

Please understand, I am not using you as a target, their are some very stupid people on this thread...maybe just one person can get the sense of what is being said. QUOTE]


I had to quote manually because for some reason I didn't see that post.

Domenic, you DID target me. Then you created an absurd situation reflecting NOTHING of what I have said here. So please don't expect me to take it seriously. You targeted me, and then you listed foolish choice after foolish choice after foolish choice.

And, I don't think there are any stupid people on this thread. I just think there are some people who don't realize what they need to know and that some of it can only come with time. That's inexperience, not stupidity. IMO.

Rakuflames 17-09-2011 08:12

Re: It starts with training .
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by boatman61 (Post 777149)
We get the sense... but you are maybe not....
Just because folks pass exams and get a bit of paper does not make make them any smarter or stupider than the DIY method..
Once you grasp the basics and which rope does what its down to experimentation...
I've known folks who've done the tests and are downright dangerous...
They know they're always right... they have the bit of paper to prove it...
Us DIY'ers.... hell we know we don't know it all...
you guys never stop telling us...:p


Oh I had a DIY'er on my boat who was flat-out dangerous, and he was always absolutely certain he was right. I'm not just saying these things. I have seen, first hand, the benefits of competent instruction both in myself and in others. Someone who never takes a class will never have that perspective.

Domenic 17-09-2011 08:15

Re: It starts with training .
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by lorenzo b (Post 777138)
Quote
So here is my question; How do you locate your position in the storm, and which way do you sail to get out of it? *Learn as you go,* right?

Why would you care what your position is? You're not going anywhere till the storm passes.

Lorenzo. If you don't know the answer, dock your steel boat, and take up golf. As to the nice people who moved out of your way...don't you think they were trying to not only save their life, but their little ships? You did say you banged into everthing there was to bang into. You sir, are a danger not only to yourself, but everyone on the water. I would have had the Coast Guard on your tail in a heart beat.

RAKUFLAMES, you don't use a sextant to find your position in a hurricane, you use the wind. It will tell you were you are in the storm. When you know your relative position, you know what course to take to get away from it.
Lorenzo feels safe having a steel boat. Am I missing something? Have steel ships ever sank? Was the Titanic made of rice paper?
Come on guys, you truly can't believe the things your saying?


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