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Rakuflames 17-09-2011 07:47

Re: It starts with training .
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Domenic (Post 777114)
RAKUFLAMES, lets put your theory to the test. You’re on the East Coast. You decide to buy a sailboat, and sail across the Atlantic ocean. The boat is 45’, equipped with everything including a lifelong pass to Disney World. You hire a guy from one of the local sailing schools to sail with you for two weeks. The first week you, and three friends watch, and make notes of everything the Master Skipper does. The second week the Master Skipper turned the vessel over to you, and your friends, and corrects any mistakes you make. At the end of the two weeks, he gives the four of you a Sailing Certificate trimmed in gold, with a big seal, and his signature. As you’re stocking the vessel with food stuff for the Grand Adventure, four young women ask if they can sun bath topless on your 45’ dream boat. Four days later your ready to set sail…the young girls are impressed with your sailing certificates, and ask if they can sail to Europe with you. You agree, and at dawn on the out going tide, you leave the harbor, and enter the Atlantic Ocean…You don’t know everything, but your motto is, “Learn as you go.”
Three days out you receive a radio report…a 300 mile wide hurricane is heading North , by North West at 16 miles per hour, and has a wind speed of 160 MPH. 12 hours later, your vessel is within the storm. You, and your trusty crew of three, and three young girls fight the weather for the next 24 hours…your doing great…learning as you go. You lose all power, nothing works. You are fighting the sea with sail, and two weeks of traing under your belt. You agree with your three friends when they say, “We have to get the hell out of this.”
So here is my question; How do you locate your position in the storm, and which way do you sail to get out of it? Learn as you go, right?

Just to be a butt head, lets make the three gals 17, and their fathers cops.



Domenic, i don't know whose "theory" you just put to the test, but it wasn't mine. I wouldn't be taking ANY boat, 45' or any other size, across the Atlantic. (And I most certainly wouldn't be doing it, even as crew on someone else's boat, during hurricane season). I don't have the experience and skills to do that even taking the hurricane out of the equation.

I have NOT advocated ONLY learning by doing. Someone else said that. I have advocated methodical, trained learning over and over and over. I ADD to that, practicing on your own. Nowhere did I say "practice on your own by buying a huge boat and then sail across the Atlantic with a bunch of teenagers during Hurricane season." (I also think it's useful to read books IN ADDITION -- but one cannot learn to sail -- safely -- from a book alone.)

I am NOT the person who said 'watch someone else for a week and then sail it yourself under supervision the next week,' either. I would never say that and never endorse it, and in fact I disagreed with it when it was said here.

My motto is NOT "Learn as you go!" I can't imagine where you got that from my posts. I've taken numerous classes, not only on sailing, but reading a chart, using a chart plotter, safety classes, coastal navigation, private lessons, and lots of lessons from more experienced sailors. I have ALSO sailed my boat on my own. Only time I've gotten in big trouble is when I ignored what more seasoned sailors taught me.

And, by the way, by the time you've been caught in a hurricane it's too late to "try to figure out where you are." Even a sextant won't help there, assuming you know how to use one, because it gets all cloudy and stuff in a hurricane. :)

The scenario you described is one of hundreds (in spite of the sarcasm regarding Disneyworld, etc.) why I do NOT recommend self-teaching. I had a self-taught sailor on my boat last spring and it was astounding what he did NOT know in spite of all the time he had spent at his tiller. But he was always absolutely certain he was right. We spent most of the time arguing. If we'd continued on that trip I would have put him off the boat. I couldn't have trusted his judgment on a watch. (Besides that, he was irritating as hell.)

lorenzo b 17-09-2011 07:51

Re: It starts with training .
 
Quote
So here is my question; How do you locate your position in the storm, and which way do you sail to get out of it? *Learn as you go,* right?

Why would you care what your position is? You're not going anywhere till the storm passes.

Rakuflames 17-09-2011 07:52

Re: It starts with training .
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by coyfish9906 (Post 777098)
Lol I've done my share of shaking. My first trip out to sea..we were purse saining for squid at night, 100 miles off shore and my skip charged me with being the skift driver, towing the net off the stern and then towing the boat when they shut down the auxiliary. Two inches of diesel was floating in my skift and u had to pull a shoe string to shut her off. Lol she caught fire while I was towing her, at nite. No radio and nothing but a line to pull my self back to the boat.
I think I put the flames out when I wet my pants...lol not to hi jack the thread. Just thought id share that..


I hate myself for it, but I laughed at that!

The biggest single mistake I ever made (given my shorter amount of experience than many here) was what I did before I ever got on the boat:

I let someone else decide whether I should go out that day or not.

If I had checked the weather *myself* instead of just trusting others who had bigger boats and more experience, I would have just stayed at our location for another day, put my sailing companion on someone else's boat and just motored back the next day.

But I didn't make that call myself, and from that followed several very pointed lessons about what not to do in rough seas and 20 knot winds in a small, tender boat. But the big lesson was to decide for myself whether to even go out.

vintageray 17-09-2011 07:57

Re: It starts with training .
 
Not sure I understand how learning to sail on a dinghy is supposed to help you deal with 160 mph winds.
Some people need training wheels and a parent on each side, some get on and cautiously learn to ride.

boatman61 17-09-2011 08:03

Re: It starts with training .
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Domenic (Post 777134)
RAKUFLAMES, I took a second look at my first post...I did say, "Find a small body of water."
You skirted around my question on how to find your location in the storm of storms, and how to get out of it.

Please understand, I am not using you as a target, their are some very stupid people on this thread...maybe just one person can get the sense of what is being said.

We get the sense... but you are maybe not....
Just because folks pass exams and get a bit of paper does not make make them any smarter or stupider than the DIY method..
Once you grasp the basics and which rope does what its down to experimentation...
I've known folks who've done the tests and are downright dangerous...
They know they're always right... they have the bit of paper to prove it...
Us DIY'ers.... hell we know we don't know it all...
you guys never stop telling us...:p

kerrydeare 17-09-2011 08:05

Re: It starts with training .
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Domenic (Post 776956)
... a very critical point in training ... Take the right course ...

I may be a slow learner, but after decades of sailing and cruising, many courses, endless encounters and discussions with experienced folks, and many thousands of inshore and offshore miles, I'm still in training. I'd guess it also ends with training.

Rakuflames 17-09-2011 08:05

Re: It starts with training .
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by vintageray (Post 777144)
Not sure I understand how learning to sail on a dinghy is supposed to help you deal with 160 mph winds.
Some people need training wheels and a parent on each side, some get on and cautiously learn to ride.


How many people do you know who have been caught in 160 mph winds?

The question is, can you deal with the much more common 30 - 40? You won't learn to do that in a dinghy. It will throw your rosy red *ss right into the drink before you ever get there, and the great majority of dinghies don't have reefing.

Some of it IS just experience. A guy in my marina decided to reef instead of motoring or anchoring in a bad storm. After sailing with the storm for 4 1/2 hours he was ...

ONE HUNDRED MILES south of where he'd been when he reefed. IMO he's really lucky he wasn't pushed aground and bashed up real good by the waves.

That kind of storm will catch you sooner or later if you sail. I was lucky the only time it's happened to me so far because I was in very familiar waters. If you're having any fun at all, you probably won't be that lucky. :)

Rakuflames 17-09-2011 08:10

Re: It starts with training .
 
[QUOTE
Originally Posted by Domenic https://cdn.cruisersforum.com/forums/...s/viewpost.gif
RAKUFLAMES, I took a second look at my first post...I did say, "Find a small body of water."
You skirted around my question on how to find your location in the storm of storms, and how to get out of it.

Please understand, I am not using you as a target, their are some very stupid people on this thread...maybe just one person can get the sense of what is being said. QUOTE]


I had to quote manually because for some reason I didn't see that post.

Domenic, you DID target me. Then you created an absurd situation reflecting NOTHING of what I have said here. So please don't expect me to take it seriously. You targeted me, and then you listed foolish choice after foolish choice after foolish choice.

And, I don't think there are any stupid people on this thread. I just think there are some people who don't realize what they need to know and that some of it can only come with time. That's inexperience, not stupidity. IMO.

Rakuflames 17-09-2011 08:12

Re: It starts with training .
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by boatman61 (Post 777149)
We get the sense... but you are maybe not....
Just because folks pass exams and get a bit of paper does not make make them any smarter or stupider than the DIY method..
Once you grasp the basics and which rope does what its down to experimentation...
I've known folks who've done the tests and are downright dangerous...
They know they're always right... they have the bit of paper to prove it...
Us DIY'ers.... hell we know we don't know it all...
you guys never stop telling us...:p


Oh I had a DIY'er on my boat who was flat-out dangerous, and he was always absolutely certain he was right. I'm not just saying these things. I have seen, first hand, the benefits of competent instruction both in myself and in others. Someone who never takes a class will never have that perspective.

Domenic 17-09-2011 08:15

Re: It starts with training .
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by lorenzo b (Post 777138)
Quote
So here is my question; How do you locate your position in the storm, and which way do you sail to get out of it? *Learn as you go,* right?

Why would you care what your position is? You're not going anywhere till the storm passes.

Lorenzo. If you don't know the answer, dock your steel boat, and take up golf. As to the nice people who moved out of your way...don't you think they were trying to not only save their life, but their little ships? You did say you banged into everthing there was to bang into. You sir, are a danger not only to yourself, but everyone on the water. I would have had the Coast Guard on your tail in a heart beat.

RAKUFLAMES, you don't use a sextant to find your position in a hurricane, you use the wind. It will tell you were you are in the storm. When you know your relative position, you know what course to take to get away from it.
Lorenzo feels safe having a steel boat. Am I missing something? Have steel ships ever sank? Was the Titanic made of rice paper?
Come on guys, you truly can't believe the things your saying?

Rakuflames 17-09-2011 08:22

Re: It starts with training .
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Domenic (Post 777165)
Lorenzo. If you don't know the answer, dock your steel boat, and take up golf. As to the nice people who moved out of your way...don't you think they were trying to not only save their life, but their little ships? You did say you banged into everthing there was to bang into. You sir, are a danger not only to yourself, but everyone on the water. I would have had the Coast Guard on your tail in a heart beat.

RAKUFLAMES, you don't use a sextant to find your position in a hurricane, you use the wind. It will tell you were you are in the storm. When you know your relative position, you know what course to take to get away from it.
Lorenzo feels safe having a steel boat. Am I missing something? Have steel ships ever sank? Was the Titanic made of rice paper?
Come on guys, you truly can't believe the things your saying?

Domenic, I SAID a sextant won't work in a hurricane. I'm just not sure why you're misreading my posts ... but you are.

Geoduck 17-09-2011 08:28

Re: It starts with training .
 
What a bunch of bs. My 1st sailboat was 42', my next was 70' , then 43, next was a 20' trailer sailor , now I'm on my 48' ketch. Ive had a few fishing boats in there too but we wont go into that. I sailed around the used to be FREE anchorage in San Diego in an El Toro and I've got a Montgomery and a sailing rig on my kayak. I never took a lesson in my life - not to say it wouldnt have helped. I learned my craft by doing it. Im still learning. I'm old school - always sailed old classics - new stuff doesnt interest me.
To each his own.

hummingway 17-09-2011 08:28

Re: It starts with training .
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Domenic (Post 777165)
Lorenzo. If you don't know the answer, dock your steel boat, and take up golf. As to the nice people who moved out of your way...don't you think they were trying to not only save their life, but their little ships? You did say you banged into everthing there was to bang into. You sir, are a danger not only to yourself, but everyone on the water. I would have had the Coast Guard on your tail in a heart beat.

RAKUFLAMES, you don't use a sextant to find your position in a hurricane, you use the wind. It will tell you were you are in the storm. When you know your relative position, you know what course to take to get away from it.
Lorenzo feels safe having a steel boat. Am I missing something? Have steel ships ever sank? Was the Titanic made of rice paper?
Come on guys, you truly can't believe the things your saying?

You started with a silly supposition and are compounding it with misquotes. I suspect some can't believe what you are saying. If you had of started by saying that people should get experience before crossing an ocean, which seems to be your later point, it might be different but you started by suggesting that sailors couldn't be good sailors unless they started on small, unballasted boats, and to make it more ludicrous you suggested it was like learning to fly an F16.

I don't think you're doing anything for your cause.

Vyndance 17-09-2011 08:33

Re: It starts with training .
 
Comparing a 152 Cessna, let alone an F-16, to a 40 ft sailboat suggests to me that you sir are neither a pilot or a sailor.

GordMay 17-09-2011 08:38

Re: It starts with training .
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by coyfish9906 (Post 777121)
... No amount of certificates can save your @$$ when the sea takes you for a ride,

It's not the certificate.
It's what you learned to earn the certificate, and then countless hours of informed practice, that will ease your path towards basic competence, then expertise.


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