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Greatketch33 17-08-2011 03:56

Re: Whatever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !
 
Formal classes typically are helpful with the introduction of concepts and the building of concepts and information, by doing so, a framework of common concepts and terms are better understood between the learners, and instructor(s). In some formal classes the concepts are reinforced by the performance demonstration by the student(s). The performance or demonstrating by the learner, learning by doing, becomes a deeper learning experience.

Students who learn by doing in a classroom form a deeper learning experience than those who are passive listeners of disseminated information. Students who learn the concepts and then attain experience, learning by doing over time and repetition, develop a deeper and broader scope of learning and skill development. Compounded learning experiences develops the master learner and usually teacher for others.

The folks who we all should be concerned about are those who gain experience --- and continue to do so -- but also continue to make the same errors again and again, and have no inclination to seek other ways to learn from these errors. In such cases, these learners for -- whatever the reason -- are not learning and potentially place others at risk.

Research has shown that learning by doing in any area is a deeper learning experience for an individual: the manner or approach in which one eventually has the opportunity to learn by doing is a matter for another discussion.

Fair Winds,
GK33

psneeld 17-08-2011 04:06

Re: Whatever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rakuflames (Post 750881)
Well, I think you've hit the nail on the head. I took classes, but I also took my boat out as often as I could, and in protected waters I often took it out by myself (with safety equipment, etc.) I learned that if I went out with a more experienced sailor, as soon as anything tricky happened that sailor would take over and just do what needed to be done. I learned the most sailing the boat myself, but I also took classes and lessons. And, I read books.

And that is what is wrong with so many "sessions of learning" out there. Hear it all the time from my students..."the last captain never let me touch the wheel...he just SHOWED me everything" There is a huge difference between someone with lots of experience and someone who can actualy instruct...but the rub is finding someone who can instruct that actually KNOWs a ton of stuff also.....

psneeld 17-08-2011 04:11

Re: Whatever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Greatketch33 (Post 752930)
Formal classes typically are helpful with the introduction of concepts and the building of concepts and information, by doing so, a framework of common concepts and terms are better understood between the learners, and instructor(s). In some formal classes the concepts are reinforced by the performance demonstration by the student(s). The performance or demonstrating by the learner, learning by doing, becomes a deeper learning experience.

Students who learn by doing in a classroom form a deeper learning experience than those who are passive listeners of disseminated information. Students who learn the concepts and then attain experience, learning by doing over time and repetition, develop a deeper and broader scope of learning and skill development. Compounded learning experiences develops the master learner and usually teacher for others.

The folks who we all should be concerned about are those who gain experience --- and continue to do so -- but also continue to make the same errors again and again, and have no inclination to seek other ways to learn from these errors. In such cases, these learners for -- whatever the reason -- are not learning and potentially place others at risk.

Research has shown that learning by doing in any area is a deeper learning experience for an individual: the manner or approach in which one eventually has the opportunity to learn by doing is a matter for another discussion.

Fair Winds,
GK33

The other group to be concerned about iis those who learn by doing but never had a situation yet...something they haven't "learned" yet. You can sail around the world and never sink, catch fire, have a near miss, etc..etc...the trick is... what have you "learned" about these events if you have never experienced them first hand? The very minimum required is some in depth reading about the topics.

Learning "from doing" and never having a problem spawned a catchy phrase....BEGINNER's LUCK! :D

David_Old_Jersey 17-08-2011 05:31

Re: Whatever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by psneeld (Post 752934)
The other group to be concerned about iis those who learn by doing but never had a situation yet...something they haven't "learned" yet. You can sail around the world and never sink, catch fire, have a near miss, etc..etc...the trick is... what have you "learned" about these events if you have never experienced them first hand? The very minimum required is some in depth reading about the topics.

Reminds me of a few CF Members over the years :whistling: - wanting advice / ideas only from those who have direct first hand experiance / made the same voyage as them / have exactly the same problem - leaving aside always incomplete information offered :rolleyes: Never 2 problems exactly the same, and many things (setting fire to your head or amputating fingers) do not need any hindsight for advice, just foresight.........

Best that can be hoped for (can't demand when paying SFA :p) is some useful ideas to mull over yourself and amend to fit own circumstances....the skill that can't be taught easily by others is how to think for oneself, and work through problems / solutions......I suspect on that score that there often be a 21st century thing going on :(

boatman61 17-08-2011 06:01

Re: Whatever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !
 
Like most things in life its combination of the two that works best...
if I had not had my seamanship training in the RN as a lad I doubt I'd have taken on my first boat and restored her then gone soloing with the help of books to assist with the finer points...
Qualifications were just taking the exams after crunching the paper... the boat handling was down to repeated practice picking up bouys solo under motor and sail... deliberately going into drying situations and working out kedging off... playing disaster in other words...
As for experiencing a F7-8....
alone is the only way you'll find out how you'll cope...
just pick your location and day carefully....:p

mbianka 17-08-2011 07:27

Re: Whatever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by boatman61 (Post 752975)
Like most things in life its combination of the two that works best...
if I had not had my seamanship training in the RN as a lad I doubt I'd have taken on my first boat and restored her then gone soloing with the help of books to assist with the finer points...
Qualifications were just taking the exams after crunching the paper... the boat handling was down to repeated practice picking up bouys solo under motor and sail... deliberately going into drying situations and working out kedging off... playing disaster in other words...
As for experiencing a F7-8....
alone is the only way you'll find out how you'll cope...
just pick your location and day carefully....:p


I agree. I got bit by the sailing bug in my twenties on a road trip up to Lake Champlain. Small sailing dingy my friends took me out on. Next day or two I was sailing it myself. A few years later I bought a 24 foot Bristol and my girlfriend suggested we take some week long sailing lessons during a St. Criox vacation one winter. Sounded like a good idea. I'm sure it helped me move along in my knowledge. What followed was years of sailing and cruising often by myself and lot's of books. Feel pretty confident now that I could deal with a lot of situations but, I don't go out of my way to get into them. But, I also learned from others who have been in situations too! What strikes me even with professional teachers some sailors get it and some still get into trouble:
THE BIANKA LOG BLOG: THE SQUALL RULES!: Anatomy of a sinking.

coyfish9906 17-08-2011 17:22

I also agree. Trial and eror hands on experience should be one of the greatest parts of the adventure. Im 30 years old, don't know @#$% about sailing but going to the fl keys in a few wks to buy my first boat to live on and island hop the carib for the rest of my life if I can swing it. I wander where everyones sense of adventure went?

psneeld 17-08-2011 17:39

Re: Whatever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by coyfish9906 (Post 753353)
I also agree. Trial and eror hands on experience should be one of the greatest parts of the adventure. Im 30 years old, don't know @#$% about sailing but going to the fl keys in a few wks to buy my first boat to live on and island hop the carib for the rest of my life if I can swing it. I wander where everyones sense of adventure went?

I've had friends die trying to rescue sailors that were in over their heads...sure go ahead and learn by trial and error...just don't call for help when you realize you are in over your head and the solution was 2 paragraphs in most decent reference books.

Remember a lot of sailors with GREAT respect for venturing forth have slickers 30 years old.

Awww heck...yea...go have fun...just be careful and listen a lot more than you thought possible.

coyfish9906 17-08-2011 17:48

Ahh ill be okay. What I plan to do is learn from other sailers and trial and error on calm days. I've read a few books but I want the adventure of trial and error. For me, I think it would be more meaningful. Im also no stranger to the sea or how hairy it can get. Been a commercial fisherman for 6 years from alaska to the south Pacific. I think while being responsible, hands on is the way for me. But thank u for your response

psneeld 17-08-2011 18:14

Re: Whatever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by coyfish9906 (Post 753371)
Ahh ill be okay. What I plan to do is learn from other sailers and trial and error on calm days. I've read a few books but I want the adventure of trial and error. For me, I think it would be more meaningful. Im also no stranger to the sea or how hairy it can get. Been a commercial fisherman for 6 years from alaska to the south Pacific. I think while being responsible, hands on is the way for me. But thank u for your response


considering how many commercial fishermen die every year...that's one group I would advise NOT using as role models for going to sea.

zeehag 17-08-2011 18:20

Re: Whatever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !
 
they know the wind and sea currents and air flow patterns. is more than basic sailing can teach ye and is a big part of sailing.

coyfish9906 17-08-2011 18:21

Consider how long they spend out at sea and in places most boats won't go. At least not for recreation. I owe my life to other fishermen. I definitely would use them as a model. Oh how I love a good pissing contest...lol look u got some prity strong points but everyone is diffrent as for me ill stick to my way. Thanx

psneeld 17-08-2011 18:30

Re: Whatever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by zeehag (Post 753400)
they know the wind and sea currents and air flow patterns. is more than basic sailing can teach ye and is a big part of sailing.

not sure who you are talking about...heck many sailors I know definitely are weak on weather and tides/currents...true cruisers (a rare few) are up mrethan many and the real weather guys usually have some sort of flying background.

psneeld 17-08-2011 18:33

Re: Whatever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by coyfish9906 (Post 753402)
Consider how long they spend out at sea and in places most boats won't go. At least not for recreation. I owe my life to other fishermen. I definitely would use them as a model. Oh how I love a good pissing contest...lol look u got some prity strong points but everyone is diffrent as for me ill stick to my way. Thanx

good luck...just make sure when you are putting to sea...you aren't leaking faster than the pumps can keep up with (as many of your commercial bretheren do)!!!!! :D

callmecrazy 17-08-2011 19:19

Ice sat and watched fishing boats pump water our nonstop for days at a time (not engine water) and I can see why you'd say that.. But if I had to chose between a cruising skipper and a fishing skipper with equal amount of miles under their keels, I'd take te fisherman every time.... I like a guy who knows how to opporate a constantly flooding boat in ridiculous conditions :)

psneeld 17-08-2011 19:23

Re: Whatever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by callmecrazy (Post 753436)
Ice sat and watched fishing boats pump water our nonstop for days at a time (not engine water) and I can see why you'd say that.. But if I had to chose between a cruising skipper and a fishing skipper with equal amount of miles under their keels, I'd take te fisherman every time.... I like a guy who knows how to opporate a constantly flooding boat in ridiculous conditions :)

I'd rather gamble at the blackjack table...not hundreds of miles at sea..:whistling:

callmecrazy 17-08-2011 19:28

Right.. But taking a cruising sailor who's never seen 20 foot waves in a half sunk boat is somehow less of a gamble?

psneeld 17-08-2011 19:40

Re: Whatever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by callmecrazy (Post 753443)
Right.. But taking a cruising sailor who's never seen 20 foot waves in a half sunk boat is somehow less of a gamble?

I'm guessing most cruising sailors (by definition rather than daysailors or newbies) have been in 20 footers...if they haven't then they are only inland sailors...even coastal cruisers have probably encountered 20 footers at least once.

And most cruisers might be smart enough to avoid 20 footers letalone in a leaking boat...:rolleyes:

callmecrazy 17-08-2011 20:02

I'm sorry but I doubt that the majority of cruising sailors, anywhere, have seen 20 foot rollers... I'd expect the majority of fishing skippers to have, though.

This is heading off topic, of course, but the point is. Fishing skippers go out in any weather, no waiting for windows, no planning weather routes, they just go to where the fish are despite the conditons or the condition of their boat. As a result, they have more experience in nasty situations than anyone else, and if you take them out in a cruising boat, they could skipper it in their sleep :)

psneeld 18-08-2011 04:11

Re: Whatever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by callmecrazy (Post 753459)
I'm sorry but I doubt that the majority of cruising sailors, anywhere, have seen 20 foot rollers... I'd expect the majority of fishing skippers to have, though.

This is heading off topic, of course, but the point is. Fishing skippers go out in any weather, no waiting for windows, no planning weather routes, they just go to where the fish are despite the conditons or the condition of their boat. As a result, they have more experience in nasty situations than anyone else, and if you take them out in a cruising boat, they could skipper it in their sleep :)

And a lot of fishermen that were probably from the school of "learning by doing" never make it back...thus many poster's point.

Remember.... in those very same conditions there's plenty of other commercial, government and military vessels out there too that make it home with no trouble...and some of them are cruisers in their off time.

20 footers in the Gulf stream or on the West Coast are pretty common.

smurphny 18-08-2011 05:17

Re: Whatever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !
 
Commercial fishermen usually have a long resume' on how to get things done with whatever is available, in any condition. Unfortunately, there's no "certificate" for this. They are very good at engaging hands and brain to get it done. They also have a much better feel for weather than your weekend warrior because they are actually OUT in bad weather, having no choice if they want to put food on the table. There are plenty of capable yachties but someone who sits behind a desk for a living can't expect to have the capability of most commercial fishermen when the going gets rough and things start going awry. The thing commercial fisherman have to remember is to disguise their amusement at yachties in their $800 sailing jackets. It's easy to think that a long list of certificates and yacht club endorsements will make you proficient but as we all know, some of the most "certified" people, with patches and bars all over their bodies, are among the most incompetent in real situations.

coyfish9906 18-08-2011 05:41

I was one of the lucky idiots to get a good skip. And a good crew. But I also feel im like many ppl and stand by the hands on way. For me its the best way to soak up info. But with the little knowledge I do have im not dumb enough to get myself into trouble.....I hope lol u never know after a night of rum and debauchery

psneeld 18-08-2011 05:45

Re: Whatever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by smurphny (Post 753558)
Commercial fishermen usually have a long resume' on how to get things done with whatever is available, in any condition. Unfortunately, there's no "certificate" for this. They are very good at engaging hands and brain to get it done. They also have a much better feel for weather than your weekend warrior because they are actually OUT in bad weather, having no choice if they want to put food on the table. There are plenty of capable yachties but someone who sits behind a desk for a living can't expect to have the capability of most commercial fishermen when the going gets rough and things start going awry. The thing commercial fisherman have to remember is to disguise their amusement at yachties in their $800 sailing jackets. It's easy to think that a long list of certificates and yacht club endorsements will make you proficient but as we all know, some of the most "certified" people, with patches and bars all over their bodies, are among the most incompetent in real situations.

Glad you through that in....:D

coyfish9906 18-08-2011 05:59

I been in some nasty sea off of dutch harbor in alaska with a skip who only recently got his ticket and it was nothing and I've hit a small craft advisory on my way to san clementi island off California in a tiny little crab boat with a guy who had supposedly been fishn for years and the idiot damn near capd us. So I think a lot of it is knowledge but also a lot of keeping cool and level headed no matter what the situation is.

psneeld 18-08-2011 06:06

Re: Whatever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by coyfish9906 (Post 753577)
I been in some nasty sea off of dutch harbor in alaska with a skip who only recently got his ticket and it was nothing and I've hit a small craft advisory on my way to san clementi island off California in a tiny little crab boat with a guy who had supposedly been fishn for years and the idiot damn near capd us. So I think a lot of it is knowledge but also a lot of keeping cool and level headed no matter what the situation is.

Bingo!!!!!.................:thumb:

coyfish9906 18-08-2011 07:31

I take a beautiful bow like a professional. If only u could c it. Lol

zeehag 18-08-2011 14:06

Re: Whatever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !
 
i see it!!!!!!
my favorite crew to date has been and still is a professional fisherman and lapsed 1600 ton master. i have listened to 50 , 100 and 500 ton masters spew forth drivel and pomposity, yet he never once did this humble fisherman spew--he ACTED and knew exactly what the boat needed and when to do it. was a pleasure to sail with him.
i would take a professional fisherman over an individual with asa wtf as a crew in a heartbeat.
knowing currents and air flow patterns is fairly important in sailing whether cruising or racing. i am surprised more alleged sailors arent knowledgeable in meteorology and hydro and aero dynamics. can save as life and a boat.

hpeer 21-08-2011 16:23

Re: Whatever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !
 
I came across this on another .com and thought some of it very relevant to the thread's stated topic. Here is a bit of first para. 2 and it goes on.

Sensible Simplicity: Sailing and Self-reliance as Empowerment

Quote:

Saturday, August 20, 2011

Sailing and Self-reliance as Empowerment





One thing led to another as I was absolutely hooked. I also was, however, unknown to myself, a becoming a complete relic, a sailing iconoclast.. See, I started learning from sailing by reading books written in the 1920's in the pre-motor, or pre-yachting era. I figured, as the people in the books informed me, that self-reliance was everything-- that motors especially were unnecessary and if you


Mr B 27-08-2011 16:15

Re: Whatever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by psneeld (Post 753396)
considering how many commercial fishermen die every year...that's one group I would advise NOT using as role models for going to sea.

Yes, But commercial fishermen are out there in extremes of weather, While your sitting at home on your couch, The weather looks a bit off today, so I wont go out in it,

Same applies to all shipping, They are out there in the extreme weather, Not because they want to, But because they have to,

psneeld 27-08-2011 16:46

Re: Whatever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr B (Post 760833)
Yes, But commercial fishermen are out there in extremes of weather, While your sitting at home on your couch, The weather looks a bit off today, so I wont go out in it,

Same applies to all shipping, They are out there in the extreme weather, Not because they want to, But because they have to,

COMPLETELY missed the point...read ALL my posts....:rolleyes:

Plus I've spent my time at sea through tropical storms, hurricanes and north Pacific stoms with 60 plus footers and North/South Atlantic with 30 plus footers.... on all kinds of boats and ships...different ethic than many but not all comm fishermen...that's WHY I am sitting on my couch tonight and not in a watery grave.

Rakuflames 27-08-2011 16:49

Re: Whatever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by psneeld (Post 753396)
considering how many commercial fishermen die every year...that's one group I would advise NOT using as role models for going to sea.

Well, I disagree with that. It's a business, and they have to go out in rough conditions as well as calm days. It's a dangerous profession, but that doesn't mean they don't know what they're doing.

The problem with "trial and error" is that you don't always know it was an error. I come back to the four football players, who took a coastal boat out into the Gulf without checking the weather and then anchored it quite badly. It was all things they'd tried (trial) before and done without mishap, making them unaware of their errors and in fact believing that they knew what they were doing.

psneeld 27-08-2011 18:55

Re: Whatever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rakuflames (Post 760853)
Well, I disagree with that. It's a business, and they have to go out in rough conditions as well as calm days. It's a dangerous profession, but that doesn't mean they don't know what they're doing.

The problem with "trial and error" is that you don't always know it was an error. I come back to the four football players, who took a coastal boat out into the Gulf without checking the weather and then anchored it quite badly. It was all things they'd tried (trial) before and done without mishap, making them unaware of their errors and in fact believing that they knew what they were doing.

Go back and read all my posts...I discussed how many get underway with boats that are leaking seriously before they leave the dock...or boats with such poor maintenance or bad stability...etc...etc...I guess some of you think that's being a good role model? Just because they usually make it back despite bad conditions doesn't mean they are any better seamen than cruisers who survive their first storm at sea (accidental or good seamanship? your guess is as good as mine...:whistling:)

Capt Phil 30-08-2011 16:39

Re: Whatever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !
 
After more than a few years commercial fishing for salmon, halibut and herring in the PNW, I gave it up for a very good reason... my life expectancy was probably about 20 years at that line of work. Towing logs and barges and beachcombing was a little safer but not much. The guys I sailed with and worked with on the water were tough, hard working, hard drinking but those that lasted were fairly safety conscious. We all knew the losers who didn't care for their vessels, their gear, their crew or themselves... most of them died at sea or just never came home. Fortunately, there are many others who sailed responsibly, were sound seamen and willing to share their knowledge. My guess it is like every other job... there those who excel and survive and those who don't do either. It was a great way to grow up and earn a living, learn about life and respect for the ocean... wouldn't trade a minute of it... Capt Phil

zeehag 30-08-2011 16:54

Re: Whatever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !
 
capttman.....

i got your answer!!!!!!



I LEARN EVERY TIME I DO.

seagypsy2012 31-08-2011 09:54

Re: Whatever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !
 
i will agree with you! it really depends on the person, if you are very
determined about doing it yourself, yes you can. for centuries people have learned by watching and being taught by the people that knew. they did not always have "classrooms". you can be taught by experienced professionals through reading books and more books and watching videos. we today have the power of the internet, i encourage you to study anything and everything you can get your hands on, and then study it over and over. not everyone can learn this way, but if you can't learn it this way then you will have a very hard time learning it in a classroom also. the best way to learn is by seeing and doing, did you have to go to school to learn how to walk? if you did not keep trying after you fell down you would still be crawling today, right? you have to an interest and a will to do it, a burning desire inside you. read books over and over because some things you cannot fully understand the first few times you read it. to start with, i would suggest you read the books written by Lin and Larry Pardey and watch their videos over and over. the pardey's have truly launched a thousand dreams.
you can contact me, if you want to learn more.......james

coyfish9906 31-08-2011 21:53

Ahoy, I just got back from my last trip (for awhile at least) as a fisherman. Hit a lil pay dirt and I do mean little, glad to see this topic is still going

davefromoregon 11-10-2011 21:00

Re: Whatever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !
 
What are the collective thoughts on asa 105/106? I took 104 this spring, daysail regularly, and have chartered a boat in the San Juans. So, I take classes, I read and I do. I was kind of surprised how much I enjoyed reading charts and tide charts during the charter and had a pretty good idea how lost I would have been without the GPS.

With this as a back ground, are the 105/106 courses worth my time?

callmecrazy 11-10-2011 21:18

Re: Whatever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !
 
not sure about 106, but 105 is a DIY class. You get a book and you study at home, then pass the test. No classes, no hands-on learning...

basically 104 is all you really need. Get some books on (or a cheaper online class like nauticED) for the navigation stuff. And as for 106, go sailing.

davefromoregon 11-01-2012 13:54

Re: Whatever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by callmecrazy (Post 794760)
not sure about 106, but 105 is a DIY class. You get a book and you study at home, then pass the test. No classes, no hands-on learning...

basically 104 is all you really need. Get some books on (or a cheaper online class like nauticED) for the navigation stuff. And as for 106, go sailing.

Any other thoughts on 105/106? Anyone here take 106 and 108?

foolishsailor 11-01-2012 15:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by GordMay
Indeed.

A better Mencken quote:
“The inferior man’s reasons for hating knowledge are not hard to discern. He hates it because it is complex – because it puts an unbearable burden upon his meager capacity for taking in ideas. Thus his search is always for short cuts. Their aim is to make the unintelligible simple, and even obvious.”
~ H.L. Mencken

+1 thumbs up


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