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ozskipper 29-06-2011 00:12

Re: What ever happened to learn by doing???? Read a book and go for it
 
I agree that the best boats to learn on are dinghies. But the thats easy for us old salts to say. Late starters with too much money want to buy to buy the perfect boat now and just get out there. Sadly, they dont use L plates.

imagine2frolic 29-06-2011 04:19

Re: What ever happened to learn by doing???? Read a book and go for it
 
daddle,

Worthless in what way?.......i2f

hpeer 29-06-2011 04:32

Re: What ever happened to learn by doing???? Read a book and go for it
 
I just looked at the ASA courses at our local school $4,500 for the lot for the Wife and I.

Wow!

AS-101, 103, 104 alone would cost us $2,800.

sailorboy1 29-06-2011 04:43

Re: What ever happened to learn by doing???? Read a book and go for it
 
My ASA instructor said that after Bareboat all the other courses really were just about money and that you couldn't really learn the advanced stuff by just taking a class. And of course once you had the experience for the advanced stuff why did you need to take a class.

Greatketch33 29-06-2011 04:45

There is a saying "an expert is one who knows all the mistakes."

Learning by doing deepens the learning experience for several reasons. Yet, because learning styles are different -- some folks are more visual, some need conceptualize before executing tasks -- sailing schools met a demand for a certain group of folks.

At some time in the learning the "doing" has to happen. Example, one can not learn to swim as an adult by conversation and picture displays alone; moreover, one can not learn to swim by doing alone - yes let's throw the ol' bloke overboard so he learns to swim. He either will pass the test or not. Hmmmmm

The combination of school and doing can be helpful for many.

This email thread is more about how people learn than about learning to sail.
Great thread and subject.

Fair winds,
GK

capt.bobfm 29-06-2011 08:10

Re: What ever happened to learn by doing???? Read a book and go for it
 
I have been an instructor for both ASA and U.S.Sailing,mostly in their "Cruising" courses. It's true that some instruction can go a long way and I wish I had had some 50 years ago,but not the way it's done today.The sailing schools generally teach a 3 week course in 3 days.No one can absorb that much information that quickly.A good instructor can (with a good student) cram enough pertinant information into a inexperianced mind.Most dont ! The all mighty buck is the important thing.Of course it's true that some instructors are better than others but some students are better than others too. I've had students who after a 5 day cruising course would have made fine crewmembers and I've had students who after a basic sailing course couldn't safely get on or off the boat.They all passed their writen exams.which means they all got certification.That doesn't mean they can sail but they think it does. During these courses, the student might set an anchor once or twice,aproach a dock 2 or 3 times,heave to a time or two,do some coastwise navigation,but never change out sails,anchor in bad conditions,deal with forign port officials,get themselves off the sandbar,unwrap the crabtrap line from the prop.,etc.etc.etc. I recomend that serious newbees find a private truly experianced sailor to get them on the path.Some people can learn on their own but most like a littla help.

jackdale 29-06-2011 08:29

Re: What ever happened to learn by doing???? Read a book and go for it
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Lucas (Post 718114)
My ASA instructor said that after Bareboat all the other courses really were just about money and that you couldn't really learn the advanced stuff by just taking a class. And of course once you had the experience for the advanced stuff why did you need to take a class.

Don

I do not agree with your ASA instructor entirely. I teach advanced courses.

Among the standards taught are:

- symmetrical spinnaker (dip pole gybe)
- night navigation (aids and nav lights)
- passage planning
- weather including weatherfax, gribs, etc..
- watch systems
- electronic navigation (chartplotters, laptop, radar)

We do 2 - 3 overnight sails, including getting 30 to 50 miles offshore.

I will admit that for those who are just interested in coastal cruising, this is an adventure. For others it has been a step to going offshore on their own boats. They often use the experience to make decisions about what design features they ant in their own boats and how they equip them.

As I mentioned earlier, helm time is essential, you simply cannot go from on course to the next without putting your skills into practice and gaining experience.

Our CYA and ISPA students have to demonstrate their knowledge through written assessments and their skills through a practical assessment. On several occasions I have signed students off on their knowledge, but not on their skills.

jackdale 29-06-2011 08:34

Re: What ever happened to learn by doing???? Read a book and go for it
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by daddle (Post 718033)
I don't know a single good sailor that didn't start with hundreds of hours in a dinghy, sunfish, fatty knees, FJ, or whatever. My dad shoved me away from the dock as a child, in an El Toro named Glug, at a very early age. I don't think there is any other way. The school certified sailors I've sailed with were without exception absolutely worthless at sea. That's my opinion.

Bull crap. That is such an overgeneralization. I question your choice of sailing companions.

wannago 29-06-2011 09:24

Re: What ever happened to learn by doing???? Read a book and go for it
 
When I took sailing classes, well, we did go out and get on a boat and sail it.

They went over some theory and safety in a classroom, explaining a bit about why things are done the way they are, instead of telling you that's just how you do it. But then we all went down to the boat and got bossed around, corrected, quizzed, etc. while sailing around on a boat.

The first classes were all on 22-25 foot boats. I've never been on a dingy, and the water around here is cold enough that I really don't like the idea of falling off a boat, but I am getting more curious about trying some of them out. But many of the lessons (US sailing courses) touch on concepts like reefing, spring lines, balancing the center of effort between the jib and the mainsail, I'm just not sure many of these apply until the dingys are almost small keel boat size, and am not sure what benefits there would be at that point.

davefromoregon 29-06-2011 09:33

Re: What ever happened to learn by doing???? Read a book and go for it
 
After I took 103, I was a better sailor than before the class. Leading up to the class, I spent a lot of time doing my homework and a lot of time in the boat. 103 filled in some gaps and improved my game. Then between taking 103 and 104, again, I spent a lot of time reading the book and sailing. The class itself provided me a chance to sail a bigger boat with someone providing real time feedback. It also provided hands on education of the diesel engine, the plumbing system, and the safety systems on a larger boat.

For me, my prep and the classes went hand in hand.

As for my next steps: 105/106, I expect they will follow pretty much the same process. As much hands on as I can manage given that i do not own a boat(club member), serious study of the material, a weeklong charter, and then the class.

This process works for me and has been enjoyable.

BTW, is there any good reason why any book is used other than the Rousmaniere book? The ASA books are crap and completely overshadowed by the Roumaniere text.

MarkSF 29-06-2011 09:42

Re: What ever happened to learn by doing???? Read a book and go for it
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cotemar (Post 717080)
capttman,

I am with you. My girlfriend bought our first boat before we even knew how to sail. It was a Catalina 30. I did not want anything to do with sailing. It was all her idea.
Had the broker sign an agreement that he would take us out a few times to show us how things worked. Devoured a basic sail boat book the week before signing and the rest is history.
I really think that sailing is the easy part.
The docking was always the hard part until we purchased the cat and that problem is now past us.

Mark

After reading your post I tried to get my cat to assist with docking to no avail. It seems to be more interested in food and sleeping. How did you motivate it?

Cheechako 29-06-2011 09:44

Re: What ever happened to learn by doing???? Read a book and go for it
 
Lessons are good, life experience is good also. Get a dingy and sail it, crew on a racing boat will be better. I'm not into the ASA BS, but having an instructor (any good instructor or sailor) is a faster way to learn the basics anyway. Once you've got the basic terminology, sail trim theory etc... just go for it! JMHO

daddle 29-06-2011 09:51

Jackdale: Huh? You can somehow determine that I'm lying in my post?

Imagine2frolic: They were worthless as sailors. As for other skills, they were worthless at those as well. Apparently bad cooking and bad loving go hand in hand with bad sailing.

John A 29-06-2011 10:05

Re: What ever happened to learn by doing???? Read a book and go for it
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by daddle (Post 718297)
They were worthless as sailors. As for other skills, they were worthless at those as well. Apparently bad cooking and bad loving go hand in hand with bad sailing.

All three take lots of practice, I have no problem with that!:whistling:

zeehag 29-06-2011 10:13

Re: What ever happened to learn by doing???? Read a book and go for it
 
as for cat helping--mine opens his eyes and meouws-- but wont lend a hand to help-- aklways making a comment tho...
as for asa cert alleged sailors-- some came to me for crew position--i am not impresssed with their knowledge base....nor am i impressed with their confidence base--i told them i was sailing 100 miles off shore-- they ran-- was my luckiest day....i prefer someone whio has had instruction as an apprentice rather than as a class type setting. there ARE good sailors with whom to do this. is also a lot more fun tha thaving to listen to some one yelling at ye from a dink...
btw--i didnt have a dink to sail until i was 40 yr into my sailing experiences..LOL..... then i found a newport 11/kite to play in-- didnt make me any more intelligent in sailing.

capt.bobfm 29-06-2011 10:30

Re: What ever happened to learn by doing???? Read a book and go for it
 
Wannago; All the basic principles are the same no matter what the size of the boat. On a small boat you can feel the changes and healing etc.much easier and when you move up to a larger vessel,you'll know how the boat will resond to your actions.

Blue Crab 29-06-2011 10:40

Re: What ever happened to learn by doing???? Read a book and go for it
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by imagine2frolic (Post 717098)
For many a structured lesson is the fast track to fewer bad habits. Sure you can get out there, and flounder around. Eventually you will get it. Some don't last that long, and others go on to cross oceans.People take driving lessons, golf, batting, and the list is huge.......i2f


Surely you are NOT suggesting that one can improve one's golf game by taking lessons? Come on.

jackdale 29-06-2011 10:53

Re: What ever happened to learn by doing???? Read a book and go for it
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by daddle (Post 718297)
Jackdale: Huh? You can somehow determine that I'm lying in my post?

I did not accuse you of lying. I am just of the view that your opinion is "worthless."

Velma 29-06-2011 11:00

Re: What ever happened to learn by doing? Read a book and go for it!
 
So I decide to take a course and lo and behold the instructor has never even been more then off the immediate coast on a sail boat....duh...and they want to give lessons???? I've got a problem taking a sailing course, let alone navagation from someone who hasn't even experienced off coast sailing and is a "purveyor of fear". Guess its time to find another sailing course!!! I'm happy to say that my husband has more knowledge of sailing then they do and is a fantastic instructor! I will keep on searching courses until I find an instructor that has more knowledge then I do and then will take the course. I still like to have that license under my belt, never know when it might come in handy!

boatman61 29-06-2011 11:01

Re: What ever happened to learn by doing? Read a book and go for it!
 
<<<<<<<<<<<<<< LowLife....:p

jackdale 29-06-2011 11:07

Re: What ever happened to learn by doing? Read a book and go for it!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Velma (Post 718357)
So I decide to take a course and lo and behold the instructor has never even been more then off the immediate coast on a sail boat....duh...and they want to give lessons???? I've got a problem taking a sailing course, let alone navagation from someone who hasn't even experienced off coast sailing and is a "purveyor of fear". Guess its time to find another sailing course!!! I'm happy to say that my husband has more knowledge of sailing then they do and is a fantastic instructor! I will keep on searching courses until I find an instructor that has more knowledge then I do and then will take the course. I still like to have that license under my belt, never know when it might come in handy!

Hi Velma, from a fellow Albertan.

What level of course did you take? A CYA Basic instructor or an ISPA Day Skipper instructors does not need offshore experience. Nor does a Intermediate / Coastal Skipper instructor. It would be beneficial.

I am of the view that an instructor is to provide an experience that builds the competence and confidence of their students.

PM me if you wish.

Jack

zeehag 29-06-2011 11:21

Re: What ever happened to learn by doing? Read a book and go for it!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by boatman61 (Post 718359)
<<<<<<<<<<<<<< LowLife....:p

ye talking to me??if so, am proud of that title..LOL..... rum included...mebbe i might even consume some..LOL:whistling:
:flowers:

donradcliffe 29-06-2011 12:11

Re: What ever happened to learn by doing ? Read a book and go for it !
 
One of the problems with reading the book and buying a boat is that you are likely to be needing outside help, and that goes against my philosophy.

I once had to tow a 35 ft sailboat the last 15 miles into Boston because the new owner couldn't get the engine started, and couldn't figure out how to sail into the wind. He bought the boat in Canada and set off with no experience or instruction--his wife had the good sense to fly from Halifax...

wannago 29-06-2011 12:29

Re: What ever happened to learn by doing ? Read a book and go for it !
 
I'm reminded of a PBS show that I watched several years ago. They presented the central argument that the main thing separating man from primates is that men shared there knowledge, and shared what they learned with each other. Imagine if we had to discover everything from scratch ourselves, which is how they believed monkeys learned.

Of course, like any skill, experience counts. But knowledge is important, it's hard to apply knowledge you don't understand. And it takes a long time to come up with that stuff on your own.

Not to mention that some people consider that learning how to sail involves more than sail trim and steering, but also navigation...

Capt Phil 29-06-2011 12:35

Re: What ever happened to learn by doing ? Read a book and go for it !
 
As a former sailing instructor (sort of!) with absolutely no training or sailing certification at the time, I am struck by the seeming lack of concern, generally, that Velma brought up.
Granted, it was back in the 60's when I taught sailing for JibSet out of Vancouver and I don't recall there being any certification required to teach sailing. My experience had been self taught in my own Snipe plus a few race crewing positions but I had worked commercially on the water for several years at that point and had enough seatime to sit for a Mate's Certification for Coastal Inland Waters.
Les Alfreds, the owner, long since deceased, was a great guy and trying to get more folks interested in the sport, bought 4 Cal 20's and hired a few of us dock rats to teach newbies how to sail. As I recall, we concentrated on boat handling, running, reaching, MOB drills and teaching what sailing terms we knew. I was probably one of the least knowledgeable instructors of the 4 of us but knew more about the rules of the road and navigation than everyone else combined due to my commercial experience.
I look back fondly to those days secure in the feeling that my students didn't learn a hell of alot about sailing from me but we all had a great time being on the water.
I'm sure that the world of sailing instruction has come a long way from those early days but we had a marvelous time... Capt Phil

Jon4399 29-06-2011 12:43

Re: What ever happened to learn by doing ? Read a book and go for it !
 
I've been sailing inland, off and on, for over fourty years. Always as a crew. I've recently bought my dream, a 37.5 Hunter, and not wanting to bang it or someone else's up, I decided to take some courses. I felt I knew how to sail, but the courses filled in a lot of blanks. I didn't know what I didn't know. Now I have more confidence in my abilities, and any time my kids say, "Gee dad do you REALLY know how to sail?", I can pull out my log book.

rgscpat 29-06-2011 15:31

Re: What ever happened to learn by doing ? Read a book and go for it !
 
/onsoapbox
History has shown that society (government, led by public opinion) will respond to too much idiocy in any given area by trying to legislate away the causes or at least penalize the symptoms. Every time someone gets in trouble or hurts someone on the water due to stupid acts, society comes closer to taking away more of the freedoms that many sailors crave.

Last month ten NASA rocket scientists crowded onto and capsized a 22-foot sailboat in the Chesapeake Bay; two died. A couple of months before, a man raising money for his charity overloaded a sailboat and got people killed in San Diego. Like it or not, this sort of activity WILL ultimately lead to increased regulation. And, already, one of the US Coast Guard accident form check boxes is whether the skipper had any sort of boating safety training. If the authorities continue to find a correlation between lack of training and serious accidents, guess what they will legislate?

Remember, too, that the members of this forum are atypical of all boaters. Most people here have a lot of experience. That's not true of boaters as a whole; in fact many anglers, water skiers, waterfowl hunters, etc., don't even really think of themselves as boaters at all and don't feel a need to learn more than the minimum of how to turn the ignition key and steering wheel. But, the behavior of the untrained people reflects on all sailors and has consequences for all of us. /offsoapbox

Palarran 29-06-2011 15:48

Re: What ever happened to learn by doing ? Read a book and go for it !
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by donradcliffe (Post 718429)
One of the problems with reading the book and buying a boat is that you are likely to be needing outside help, and that goes against my philosophy.

I once had to tow a 35 ft sailboat the last 15 miles into Boston because the new owner couldn't get the engine started, and couldn't figure out how to sail into the wind. He bought the boat in Canada and set off with no experience or instruction--his wife had the good sense to fly from Halifax...

You really saved that guys hind end. I'm sure he appreciated your assistance and hopefully learned a lesson to never - ever put himself in a position where he needed outside help. He was obviously lucky to have made it as far as he did without having to sail into the wind. And no experience either - imagine where he could have ended up, like Iceland. Good job.

Astrid 29-06-2011 16:09

Re: What ever happened to learn by doing ? Read a book and go for it !
 
What's wrong with Iceland?

Actually, one should learn by any and all tools one has, much like learning to navigate--use or at least know how to use all the nav aids one has. Learn by doing, hopefully under the watchful eye of an experienced sailor; build on that with reading pertinent books on the subject (books are a wonderful storehouse of knowledge and you can always find something you have not experienced personally), take a class or two if you feel like you should, and eventually get the certificates you need to appease the bureaucrats. Above all, get out and do it. Practice makes perfect.

Bash 29-06-2011 16:10

Re: What ever happened to learn by doing???? Read a book and go for it
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by hpeer (Post 718105)
I just looked at the ASA courses at our local school $4,500 for the lot for the Wife and I.

Makes me glad I learned through an alternative program---sailing merit badge.

(That was back when a merit badge handbook cost 25 cents.)

ozskipper 29-06-2011 17:38

Re: What ever happened to learn by doing ? Read a book and go for it !
 
Actually, it would be nice if a skippers ASA RYA AYA qualifications were recognised by insurers. Then we could get cheaper insurance than people with L plates on.

Blue Crab 29-06-2011 17:45

Re: What ever happened to learn by doing? Read a book and go for it!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by boatman61 (Post 718359)
<<<<<<<<<<<<<< LowLife....:p

I'm all in.

MarkJ 29-06-2011 17:54

Re: What ever happened to learn by doing ? Read a book and go for it !
 
I can't understand how a thread can have 110 posts in a coupla days when its not related to women? Granted I havent read 109 of the posts...

Anyway, school teachers in Australia don't teach children anymore they just show clients where they can obtain the requisite knowledge.

This being so, then adults who yearn for the sea should do similarly. When a problem occurs on passage just Google: "Sinking. WFT do I do?"


If you do this search you will note 85,500 results. What more do you need?


Mark

jackdale 29-06-2011 18:28

Re: What ever happened to learn by doing ? Read a book and go for it !
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ozskipper (Post 718646)
Actually, it would be nice if a skippers ASA RYA AYA qualifications were recognised by insurers. Then we could get cheaper insurance than people with L plates on.


In Canada, any boating certificate will get you lower insurance.

Palarran 29-06-2011 19:30

Re: What ever happened to learn by doing ? Read a book and go for it !
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkJ (Post 718658)
I can't understand how a thread can have 110 posts in a coupla days when its not related to women? Granted I havent read 109 of the posts...

Anyway, school teachers in Australia don't teach children anymore they just show clients where they can obtain the requisite knowledge.

This being so, then adults who yearn for the sea should do similarly. When a problem occurs on passage just Google: "Sinking. WFT do I do?"


If you do this search you will note 85,500 results. What more do you need?



Mark



Now that is funny!!

wannago 29-06-2011 19:33

Re: What ever happened to learn by doing ? Read a book and go for it !
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkJ (Post 718658)
I can't understand how a thread can have 110 posts in a coupla days when its not related to women? Granted I havent read 109 of the posts...

Anyway, school teachers in Australia don't teach children anymore they just show clients where they can obtain the requisite knowledge.

This being so, then adults who yearn for the sea should do similarly. When a problem occurs on passage just Google: "Sinking. WFT do I do?"


If you do this search you will note 85,500 results. What more do you need?


Mark

Google and the first and is:

Quotes for SLB, RIG, HAL, BHI, NOV, TS, DO, , WFT, NE- Yahoo! Finance

finance.yahoo.com/q?s=SLB,RIG,HAL,BHI,NOV...DO...WFT... - Cached
Jun 23, 2011 – View the basic SLB, RIG, HAL, BHI, NOV, TS, DO, WFT, ... WFT Sinking Oil Prices Create a Buy Opportunity at TheStreet Thu 11:08AM EDT ...

I'm thinking that means it's a good time to buy Transocean Ltd (Switzerland) Co (NYSE: RIG )?:popcorn:

Jahmi 04-07-2011 15:51

Re: What ever happened to learn by doing ? Read a book and go for it !
 
I see a lot of you suggest starting small and working your way up. Let's say someone has 30 plus years of power boating experience of handling various boats between 16 -40 ft. They also have several years experience in wind sports such as windsurfing and kiteboarding but have limited experience sailing have only been out only a handful of times on someone else's boat but got involved with the sailing process. Would you still suggest the start out with a dingy and work their way up?

The reason I ask is that I find myself in that situation and I'm in the market for the purchase of my first sailboat. I'm not even considering a small starter boat and plan on jumping in with the purchase of a boat in the 32 - 36 ft range that suits my ultimate needs of coastal cruising in SoCal and Mexico. I knew last year that my next boat purchase was going to be sailboat so I started seeking experience. I've docked a Tartan 34 in a strong current and stiff breeze and just like any boat I've skippered before it's definitely different but not anything that's going to take years to learn. Unfortunately that opportunity is no longer available to me as I had to move from the Great Lakes to the west coast due to the economy.

I will take some lessons but but not ASA as I feel my money is better spent hiring a private captain to shadow me and identify where I'm lacking in my sailing skills.

capttman 04-07-2011 15:53

Re: What ever happened to learn by doing ? Read a book and go for it !
 
I say just do it, and if ya need a captain I'm here.........

VirtualVagabond 04-07-2011 16:12

Re: What ever happened to learn by doing ? Read a book and go for it !
 
There is a new thread further down this page by a new member called Heeling and New Sailor..

This poor guy has just got keelboat certification, and hasn't been taught how to reduce heeling with sail adjustment!!!

It's a hell of an argument supporting the title of this thread :popcorn:

pablothesailor 04-07-2011 16:28

Re: What ever happened to learn by doing ? Read a book and go for it !
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by VirtualVagabond (Post 721791)
There is a new thread further down this page by a new member called Heeling and New Sailor..

This poor guy has just got keelboat certification, and hasn't been taught how to reduce heeling with sail adjustment!!!

It's a hell of an argument supporting the title of this thread :popcorn:


Jeepers, just seen that.......it does suprise me that there are not more accidents out there! It does seem to make sense that anyone going out on anything bigger that 15ft should have some sort of competence certificate!
I hope that fella does not get to much stick regarding the heeling thing, it could really knock the wind out of his sails..........:whistling:


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