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Lucky Larry 28-06-2011 03:31

Re: What ever happened to learn by doing???? Read a book and go for it
 
I can see multiple aspects of this topic. I spent a lot of time in my younger years on rafts, canoes, power and sail boats. I had the benefit of instruction provided by family and friends mixed in with the experience.

When we wanted to join a fractional ownership sailing group we were required to take ASA 101 & 103.

Then we decided to buy a decent sized catamaran and the bank and insurance company wanted proof that we could sail it so we had to take ASA 104 & 114.

Now our boat is leased to a charter company, and I rest easier knowing that regardless of their ASA card and tickets, those who charter it have to prove that they can safely take it out of the marina, set the sails, secure the sails, and bring it back to it's assigned slip before they take it out without a paid skipper.

I look at the various schools like ASA, drivers education, and even flight school as giving a person enough knowledge to somewhat safely go out and learn through experience.

I know that there are a times that I wish that other people with their big cruisers had been forced to take some of the available boating courses before they were allowed to leave the docks. Never assume that the other person knows or is paying attention to what they're doing.

Cheers,
Lucky Larry

VirtualVagabond 28-06-2011 03:35

Re: What ever happened to learn by doing???? Read a book and go for it
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by boatman61 (Post 717307)
As you can see I have no illusions of granduer mate....:p

You're head and shoulders above most on this forum, Boatman, funny as that may seem :thumb:

boatman61 28-06-2011 03:42

Re: What ever happened to learn by doing???? Read a book and go for it
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by VirtualVagabond (Post 717318)
You're head and shoulders above most on this forum, Boatman, funny as that may seem :thumb:

Ahhhh... thats only coza de 'Soapbox' I stand on........:p

VirtualVagabond 28-06-2011 03:50

Re: What ever happened to learn by doing???? Read a book and go for it
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lucky Larry (Post 717315)
I look at the various schools like ASA, drivers education, and even flight school as giving a person enough knowledge to somewhat safely go out and learn through experience.

I know that there are a times that I wish that other people with their big cruisers had been forced to take some of the available boating courses before they were allowed to leave the docks. Never assume that the other person knows or is paying attention to what they're doing.

Cheers,
Lucky Larry

Fair comment :popcorn:

goboatingnow 28-06-2011 04:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by boatman61
A bit of paper in the hand makes many think they are more than they really are... and that goes all the way up to Yacht Master Ocean...
Sorry guys n Gals.... gotta serve the time... not just the course...

You misunderstand yachtmaster offshore and ocean. They are competency exams not training courses. They are not courses. In fact once you meet the sea miles qualification you can take the exam without any formal tuition.

The resulting ticket can be commercially endorsed and is good upto 200 tons

Dave

boatman61 28-06-2011 04:51

Re: What ever happened to learn by doing???? Read a book and go for it
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by goboatingnow (Post 717354)
You misunderstand yachtmaster offshore and ocean. They are competency exams not training courses. They are not courses. In fact once you meet the sea miles qualification you can take the exam without any formal tuition.

The resulting ticket can be commercially endorsed and is good upto 200 tons

Dave

Dang... makes my 22m/80 tons a bit sad huh...:D

SkiprJohn 28-06-2011 11:48

Re: What ever happened to learn by doing???? Read a book and go for it
 
Aloha all,
I've sailed with a few skippers with large boats that have no business being away from the dock. The reason is they don't know about safety and they don't know the rules of the road and are a danger to themselves and their passengers and other boaters in the water.
A basic sailing course could have at least put them on a level playing field before they bought their big boats.
After talking with a few skippers who needed crew I just walked away. I knew by our conversation that they shouldn't be going anywhere. Some learned sailing through friends that taught them bad habits, some learned by just jumping aboard their first boat.
Think back to when you first jumped aboard your boat without classes. How nervous were those folks around you in an anchorage or at a dock near you when you were flailing around with tiller and sails and not knowing which direction you were going or that you were caught in irons being blown on the rocks?
Sorry for the rant but this question can have more than one right answer. Sailing courses are really necessary for some folks and wouldn't hurt any of us.
kind regards,

CruisingJJ 28-06-2011 11:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by capttman
OK, can I have a gripe here? Every time I see a post with someone wanting to begin sailing all I seem to see is advice on getting ASA training take lessons etc....

My feeling is get a sunfish and go for it then a bigger and bigger till ya happy... Read a book, trial and error or OPB to learn.

Have we really become a bunch of morons who can't just do it any more or am I just old and cranky??

Come on slaughter me or agree with me or what do you think.......:devil:

Well There are still some of us that will learn by doing. I bought a 1976 25ft Oday and my plan is to drop it in the water and start pulling on lines and see what happens. No sailing experience at all. That way if I make a mistake I have to fix it which is a great way to learn. Of course I'll have safety in mind and will be cautious. Eventually I may need help to fine tune my skills but what the heck I am going for it.

Capt Phil 28-06-2011 12:40

Re: What ever happened to learn by doing???? Read a book and go for it
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SkiprJohn (Post 717600)
Aloha all,
I've sailed with a few skippers with large boats that have no business being away from the dock. The reason is they don't know about safety and they don't know the rules of the road and are a danger to themselves and their passengers and other boaters in the water.
A basic sailing course could have at least put them on a level playing field before they bought their big boats.
After talking with a few skippers who needed crew I just walked away. I knew by our conversation that they shouldn't be going anywhere. Some learned sailing through friends that taught them bad habits, some learned by just jumping aboard their first boat.
Think back to when you first jumped aboard your boat without classes. How nervous were those folks around you in an anchorage or at a dock near you when you were flailing around with tiller and sails and not knowing which direction you were going or that you were caught in irons being blown on the rocks?
Sorry for the rant but this question can have more than one right answer. Sailing courses are really necessary for some folks and wouldn't hurt any of us.
kind regards,

Truer words were never spoken, SkprJohn... I made a fair living driving the boats of wealthy boat owners around who at least knew their limitations and while they loved to be at sea with their guests, there was no way they were competent to take their vessel away from the dock.
Unfortunately, there were others who thought their checkbook gave them license to sail or drive anything anywhere with occasional disasterous result.
In their defense, they were too busy being Captains of Industry to either take a course or get any sea time under their feet. Capt Phil

rebel heart 28-06-2011 13:01

Re: What ever happened to learn by doing???? Read a book and go for it
 
I always advocate learning on a sailing dinghy. I'm also an advocate of continued formal training. Plenty of folks with experience simply have lots of experience doing things wrong. Every time I take a course I learn something new. Weather, knots, navigation, different types of vessels, different prospectives, etc.

capttman 28-06-2011 13:07

Re: What ever happened to learn by doing???? Read a book and go for it
 
Almost time to do the count for and against...

See It's not the training I'm opposed to it's that at least half of you don't think outside the box.. Most of us that cruise think outside and live outside the box..

I am a licensed Capt been sailing over 50 years over 50,000 miles under my keel and see more and more incompetent people sailing and power boating now then ever.. They all have had a course though and know when their right.... Dead right add some common sense here.....

sailorboy1 28-06-2011 13:27

Re: What ever happened to learn by doing???? Read a book and go for it
 
seems this is nothing more than new way to divide us into various groups so some can feel superior to others

which group is going to be considered the low lifes?

Sabbatical II 28-06-2011 13:32

Re: What ever happened to learn by doing???? Read a book and go for it
 
Here's my take on it. I've come to sailing in my middle age and was introduced to it by a friend. I have sailed with "experts" of varying levels from lake sailors to one who has done the "Around Alone" race. All of them had something to teach me. I have been doing sailing courses part time for 2 years. I have passed all the Yachtmaster theory and coastal level practical courses and just need a few more sea miles to sit for my 200t Master of Yachts. Some of the experienced sailors I've been to sea with certainly have been better sailors than my sailing school instructors. However, I have still learn't plenty from the sailing schools that I did not pick up from even the best of sailors. And I have learn't plenty from books and this forum that was not learned from experienced sailors or the sailing schools. Everyone has something to teach us, even if it's what not to do.

Greg

zeehag 28-06-2011 13:39

Re: What ever happened to learn by doing???? Read a book and go for it
 
count me in the lowlifes..LOL.. proudly i accept that --
i watched too many classes that have been in process of being taught--- as a result i will NOT EVER take the classes-- the instructors i have seen were yelling not teaching, they circled the kids from in a boston whaler, and one of my neighbors who is not either sailor nor seaman has been hired to instruct sailing..LOL... no way in hell would i ever take a certification class from these folks.....i am happy in my knowledge i was taught essentially as apprentice to my uncle who was a tallshipman and was a graduate of kings point and was round the world merchant mariner. goooood man, excellent teacher. i donot have faith nor trust in these creatures i watch abuse the folks and boats in mooring situations and in the sabots they are allegedly teaching to sail. they certainly do NOT know or teach RULES AND REGULATIONS.
rofl

capttman 28-06-2011 13:45

Re: What ever happened to learn by doing???? Read a book and go for it
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Lucas (Post 717660)
seems this is nothing more than new way to divide us into various groups so some can feel superior to others

which group is going to be considered the low lifes?



Never any low lifes just different lives, kind of like republicans or democrats..LOL can u guess what I am..:devil:

capttman 28-06-2011 13:48

Re: What ever happened to learn by doing???? Read a book and go for it
 
Still most do nor get it or an economist shouldn't try to write in english..lol

I just want to know why the first thing we say is take ASA 101....hahahaha

VirtualVagabond 28-06-2011 16:01

Re: What ever happened to learn by doing???? Read a book and go for it
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Lucas (Post 717660)
seems this is nothing more than new way to divide us into various groups so some can feel superior to others

which group is going to be considered the low lifes?

Don, that's easy. It's always "the other one", of course :D

VirtualVagabond 28-06-2011 16:20

Re: What ever happened to learn by doing???? Read a book and go for it
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SkiprJohn (Post 717600)
Aloha all,
I've sailed with a few skippers with large boats that have no business being away from the dock. The reason is they don't know about safety and they don't know the rules of the road and are a danger to themselves and their passengers and other boaters in the water.
A basic sailing course could have at least put them on a level playing field before they bought their big boats.
Sorry for the rant but this question can have more than one right answer. Sailing courses are really necessary for some folks and wouldn't hurt any of us.
kind regards,

I didn't even think about the chequebook sailors/owners, so that's a good point.:thumb:

I've never been able to afford to own more boat than I can handle, so the boats have got bigger over the years as experience has grown and nobody's died in the process.

Those that come to the water with more wallet than experience are sure going to need some good instruction.

davefromoregon 28-06-2011 16:28

Re: What ever happened to learn by doing???? Read a book and go for it
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by capttman (Post 717674)
Still most do nor get it or an economist shouldn't try to write in english..lol

I just want to know why the first thing we say is take ASA 101....hahahaha

Because when people come to the forum and say they know nothing, ASA 101 isn't a bad way for them to pick up fundamentals.

pablothesailor 28-06-2011 16:35

Re: What ever happened to learn by doing???? Read a book and go for it
 
Ive read here that you can ¨learn as you go along¨ and ¨sure, you make the odd mistake¨! Hmmm...I guess im a late starter in my 40s, have done 2 courses so far up to Day Skipper, the biggest impact on me from those courses was the safety side of things that was drilled into us! There are more cruisers than there were 20 years ago, the sea is a busy place! From my side I dont think I perhaps would have studied quite as hard If it had not been for the courses, I would not want to be guilty of making a silly mistake that caused injury or even loss of life to someone just because i was ¨learning as I was going along¨! So based on that am a great suporter of doing a course!

perchance 28-06-2011 16:47

Re: What ever happened to learn by doing???? Read a book and go for it
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Lucas (Post 717093)
Why is taking lessons a bad thing? And by the time I took my first lesson (the first time I had even been on a sailboat), I had read lots of sailing books.

PS - let know when you plan to send your kids out for their first drive in the car!

All this kind of reminds me of that old movie " Those Magnificent Men In their Flying Machines" where the German in the pointy helmet loses the instruction manual over the side of the plane and immediately loses the ability to fly. As for my experience I took a keel boat course through CYA and have never looked back. I read then go out and apply. If I have any question there are a ton of experienced sailors at the club who are more than willing to share their knowledge.

perchance 28-06-2011 16:56

Re: What ever happened to learn by doing???? Read a book and go for it
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rebel heart (Post 717646)
I always advocate learning on a sailing dinghy. I'm also an advocate of continued formal training. Plenty of folks with experience simply have lots of experience doing things wrong. Every time I take a course I learn something new. Weather, knots, navigation, different types of vessels, different prospectives, etc.

Dinghy sailing is a great idea if you are fairly young and agile but for an old fart like me who doesn't like to get his feet wet and can't get out of his own way at the best of times, not so much. I tried it once with a guy older than me. Rounding the mark he forgot to ease the main sheet and I got my feet wet. I'll stick to keel boats thank you very much. Taking courses takes the pain out of the learning curve.

Blue Stocking 28-06-2011 17:09

Re: What ever happened to learn by doing???? Read a book and go for it
 
This is not intended to be self-serving, but being born and raised on an island, I can't remember when I didn't sail. There was just always boat to be on.
Just lucky I guess. :D

Palarran 28-06-2011 17:13

Re: What ever happened to learn by doing???? Read a book and go for it
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by capttman (Post 717044)
am I just old and cranky??

I'm going to guess on this one - Yes to old, and if not cranky, nostalgic with a hint of self-righteousness.

Capt Phil 28-06-2011 17:20

Re: What ever happened to learn by doing???? Read a book and go for it
 
Gosh, Palarran... I thought you were talking about me! What a relief... cheers, Capt Phil

Kettlewell 28-06-2011 17:27

Re: What ever happened to learn by doing???? Read a book and go for it
 
I grew up well inland with a modest amount of occasional sailing experience on small boats of friends and family on freshwater. but for some reason I wanted to go ocean sailing so I started reading every book I could find in the library, which wasn't many. Than I started to ride my bicycle to other towns that would let me take out books. One library 30 miles away got me in pretty good shape riding back and forth. This continued throughout college where I got a break and answered a crewing ad in a magazine and I got to sail up to Labrador and back with a real old salt--ex-navy captain (WWII) and a real sailor of the old school. Learned a lot from him, and I found that some of my book learning was also pretty good. In any case, I just wanted to add that experience is great, courses might be for some folks, while others can get a lot of useful knowledge from books. I still have a large library of my own now--much bigger than any of the collections I once sought out--and I refer to those books constantly.

capttman 28-06-2011 17:29

Re: What ever happened to learn by doing???? Read a book and go for it
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Palarran (Post 717836)
I'm going to guess on this one - Yes to old, and if not cranky, nostalgic with a hint of self-righteousness.


Hmmmmm think thats a compliment.... Self righteousness hmmmmmm

Kettlewell 28-06-2011 17:32

Re: What ever happened to learn by doing???? Read a book and go for it
 
One other thing I wanted to add is that I feel like I am continuing to learn more every day. Once I feel like I know it all I suspect I will not be on this earth.

capttman 28-06-2011 17:33

Re: What ever happened to learn by doing???? Read a book and go for it
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kettlewell (Post 717852)
One other thing I wanted to add is that I feel like I am continuing to learn more every day. Once I feel like I know it all I suspect I will not be on this earth.


Not a day goes by that we don't learn something. I am going to be way behind you because i'll never feel I will know it all..... :devil:

Starbuck 28-06-2011 17:46

Re: What ever happened to learn by doing???? Read a book and go for it
 
Quote:

davefromoregon posted: Because when people come to the forum and say they know nothing, ASA 101 isn't a bad way for them to pick up fundamentals.
That's it in a nutshell. Not because it will fit everyone, but because it's a good place (for most people in most situations) to start.

As I said, the exceptions are going to go their own way anyway. Good for them. I was one. A good handbook and a sailing dinghy, and I was having a helluva good time flipping it over in the bay and learning. Then took a course as I was buying my swing-keel weekender, just to see if I was missing anything, but by then I was ahead of the class curriculum, because of my voracious reading and practicing. I've never looked back, figuring whatever mistakes I'd make after that point, I'd be able to handle myself, and that's proven true.

All roads eventually lead to Rome.

VirtualVagabond 28-06-2011 17:56

Re: What ever happened to learn by doing???? Read a book and go for it
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Palarran (Post 717836)
I'm going to guess on this one - Yes to old, and if not cranky, nostalgic with a hint of self-righteousness.

I thought you were getting a bit personal there, but then I realised it probably applies to half of us on this thread :whistling:

Palarran 28-06-2011 20:27

Re: What ever happened to learn by doing???? Read a book and go for it
 
It's all good VV. I'm a young lippy punk of 47 who started sailing at 13 and still needed to take 101 and 103, and read a lot of books, and spend like a 1000 hours on a forum getting advice, and still doesn't know crap. As a matter of fact, I'm taking 104 in August so I can get a certificate that shows I know a little more then crap for when I go the the Med next year. Apparently over there you have to prove you are just above the know-nothing level in order to captain your boat around after you sailed it 6000 miles to get there.

Personally, I'm looking forward to the course.

cheoah 28-06-2011 20:55

Re: What ever happened to learn by doing???? Read a book and go for it
 
Really Palarran? Like to get a berth at a marina, or checking in to different countries? How do they view USCG Captains license?

OK, so in summary, thread consensus says that classes are no substitute for experience, certifications don't necessarily mean anything, but that sailing classes can be useful to many. I really hadn't thought about the certification aspect until ya'll brought it up, but could have some implication with marine insurance, etc. Now, what exactly is the internationally recognized certificate that greases the wheels as you cruise the globe? Just curious, since Palarran has brought this to light. I realize that you don't need this of course, but if one were going to build a resume for deliveries here and there, and generally appear to be a "professional", what would it be?

Just humor me, I can't farm forever (I don't think) so I'm planning way ahead for next career.

csh

Palarran 28-06-2011 21:08

Re: What ever happened to learn by doing???? Read a book and go for it
 
Check out Noonsite:
Noonsite

and:

International Proficiency Certification - American Sailing Association

and:

International Certificate of Competency - Google Search

John A 28-06-2011 21:59

Re: What ever happened to learn by doing???? Read a book and go for it
 
I took leasons to learn the basics of getting a boat to move but never got a certificate before cruising for ten years.

I worked in the computer industry for 30 years from operations thru programming to Data Base Administration without a college degree.

I was a US Army Air Traffic Controller without attending any formal classes becase I passed the test.

Passing a test means that you can pass a test.

Talbot 28-06-2011 23:55

Re: What ever happened to learn by doing???? Read a book and go for it
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SkiprJohn (Post 717600)
.........A basic sailing course could have at least put them on a level playing field before they bought their big boats....................Sailing courses are really necessary for some folks and wouldn't hurt any of us.,

Can't and won't argue about the need for some people to learn more about sailing. However, this is compulsory for cars, but still does not prevent some people from idiocy.

ozskipper 29-06-2011 00:01

Re: What ever happened to learn by doing???? Read a book and go for it
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by capttman (Post 717044)
OK, can I have a gripe here? Every time I see a post with someone wanting to begin sailing all I seem to see is advice on getting ASA training take lessons etc....

My feeling is get a sunfish and go for it then a bigger and bigger till ya happy... Read a book, trial and error or OPB to learn.


Have we really become a bunch of morons who can't just do it any more or am I just old and cranky??

Come on slaughter me or agree with me or what do you think.......:devil:

Yep.. old and cranky.. nah just kidding. lol.

30 years ago I learnt by just getting on and seeing what happened also. But in hindsight it really held me back. It wasnt untill ten years back I started doing some advanced courses that I realised how much I didnt know and how many mistakes ( some quite dangerous and some quite expensive) i had made over the years. A few simple sailing lessons could have prevented many of them and made my sailing experiences much more pleasurable and cheaper. So its MHO that people should get lessons. Then sail on as many different types of boat as they can to expand thier experience as you suggest.

I get your sunfish point. But as this is a cruisers forum, the name alone suggests that noobs here are looking at some form of long distance sailing- something a sunfish or even a hobie cant go close to teaching.

Talbot 29-06-2011 00:03

Re: What ever happened to learn by doing???? Read a book and go for it
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ozskipper (Post 718026)
..... this is a cruisers forum, the name alone suggests that noobs here are looking at some form of long distance sailing- something a sunfish or even a hobie cant go close to teaching.


Tel that to the two crazy guys that crossed the atlantic in a Hobie

ozskipper 29-06-2011 00:09

Re: What ever happened to learn by doing???? Read a book and go for it
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Talbot (Post 718027)
Tel that to the two crazy guys that crossed the atlantic in a Hobie

Lol, yeh. There will always be crazy people, some will reach old age, some wont. Just ask Ryan Dunn

daddle 29-06-2011 00:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Talbot

Tel that to the two crazy guys that crossed the atlantic in a Hobie

I don't know a single good sailor that didn't start with hundreds of hours in a dinghy, sunfish, fatty knees, FJ, or whatever. My dad shoved me away from the dock as a child, in an El Toro named Glug, at a very early age. I don't think there is any other way. The school certified sailors I've sailed with were without exception absolutely worthless at sea. That's my opinion.


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