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capttman 27-06-2011 17:09

Whatever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !
 
OK, can I have a gripe here? Every time I see a post with someone wanting to begin sailing all I seem to see is advice on getting ASA training take lessons etc....

My feeling is get a sunfish and go for it then a bigger and bigger till ya happy... Read a book, trial and error or OPB to learn.


Have we really become a bunch of morons who can't just do it any more or am I just old and cranky??

Come on slaughter me or agree with me or what do you think.......:devil:

John A 27-06-2011 17:31

Re: What ever happened to learn by doing???? Read a book and go for it
 
Alot of people have trouble taking resposiblity for their own actions and its much easier to be taught than to learn by trail and error.

SPCarroll 27-06-2011 17:42

Re: What ever happened to learn by doing???? Read a book and go for it
 
I'm a big fan of learn as you go. I did join Sea Scouts and learned a lot that way, but I still read a LOT on my own and continue to learn by trial and error. I don't like people thinking that unless you have a certification you don't know what you're doing.

hpeer 27-06-2011 17:53

Re: What ever happened to learn by doing???? Read a book and go for it
 
FWIW, and not recommending it, first sail was a solo cruise in my 33' cutter.

I did have 3 hours instruction from PO.

s/v Moondancer 27-06-2011 17:55

Re: What ever happened to learn by doing???? Read a book and go for it
 
I agree and I plan to learn to be a doctor by just getting a few patients and practicing...It won't matter that I don't know things like the basic rules that are easily taught by a good instructor...

Practicing medicine has got to be easier than interacting with a 100,000 ton ship in a narrow channel.

rgscpat 27-06-2011 17:56

Re: What ever happened to learn by doing???? Read a book and go for it
 
Part of the theoretical evolutionary advantage that humans have over other critters is a great ability to learn from the mistakes of others. So, if I can avoid an expensive sailing mistake by learning from others -- whether by observation, by reading books and watching videos, by crewing for a sensible skipper, or by taking lessons -- that sounds like a good idea to me. And it seems that the fastest learning happens when you use a mix of different methods. For example, taking lessons works better for most people if they are spaced out with opportunities for practice and for figuring out what works and doesn't work for you and your boat. One advantage of lessons of some sort is that they expose new sailors to ways of avoiding the most common stupid sailing mistakes. That's worth something, even if it certainly doesn't make for sailing mastery by any means.

Corpus 27-06-2011 17:56

Re: What ever happened to learn by doing???? Read a book and go for it
 
I prefer trial and error too, but sometimes it's handy to have someone point out when in error. I took ASA 101 but have been learning the old fashion way ever since. Just didn't want to kill myself the first time out.

FrankZ 27-06-2011 17:56

Re: What ever happened to learn by doing???? Read a book and go for it
 
It might have gone the same way as a the phrase "I want a 26 footer when I get the big boat".

Cotemar 27-06-2011 17:56

Re: What ever happened to learn by doing???? Read a book and go for it
 
capttman,

I am with you. My girlfriend bought our first boat before we even knew how to sail. It was a Catalina 30. I did not want anything to do with sailing. It was all her idea.
Had the broker sign an agreement that he would take us out a few times to show us how things worked. Devoured a basic sail boat book the week before signing and the rest is history.
I really think that sailing is the easy part.
The docking was always the hard part until we purchased the cat and that problem is now past us.

Mark

Coolruns 27-06-2011 17:57

Re: What ever happened to learn by doing???? Read a book and go for it
 
Not knowing anything at all about sailing, we started in October last year by taking ASA 101. It gave us the foundation and spark to learn more. We have probably purchased 20 books, several magazine subscriptions and several DVDs since then and we are learning every day.

In 2011, we joined a local sailing club and have been sailing five times this year on a club boat without instruction. I know we are learning more by trial and error on our own. We learn what works and what doesn't. We have learned about features that we ultimately would desire to have on a boat of our own.

I would recommend joining a local sailing club as a good option to purchasing and owning your own vessel. Similar to capttman's suggestions, it will allow you to experience several different boats and decide what works well for you.

Mark1977 27-06-2011 18:09

Re: What ever happened to learn by doing???? Read a book and go for it
 
10 Years ago i went from a 23 foot power boat to a 21 viking sailboat. The OP delivered it no mast or lines ran he said thanks and see ya later. It took me a day of looking at other sailboats around to figure out where everything went. I then left the dock put the sails up and scared the sh#$ out of my self, but i never stopped. I now have a 37 foot and am still learning everyday. If i knew it all it wouldn't be fun.

sailorboy1 27-06-2011 18:16

Re: What ever happened to learn by doing???? Read a book and go for it
 
Why is taking lessons a bad thing? And by the time I took my first lesson (the first time I had even been on a sailboat), I had read lots of sailing books.

PS - let know when you plan to send your kids out for their first drive in the car!

rgscpat 27-06-2011 18:18

Re: What ever happened to learn by doing???? Read a book and go for it
 
Taking sailing lessons is of particular benefit to sailing instructors -- by becoming a sailing instructor, one is generally forced to really and truly learn what one is teaching. So all the sailing students are helping thousands of instructors become better and safer sailors.

David_Old_Jersey 27-06-2011 18:19

Re: What ever happened to learn by doing???? Read a book and go for it
 
I agree with the senttiment - but in practice for those starting from zero then IMO getting some training on the basics is useful, albeit I would also say the best learning approach is from getting stuck in yourself.

Mixing up with a yacht club / freinds boats is also useful - but no substitute for there being no other b#gger onboard to ask.

imagine2frolic 27-06-2011 18:19

Re: What ever happened to learn by doing???? Read a book and go for it
 
For many a structured lesson is the fast track to fewer bad habits. Sure you can get out there, and flounder around. Eventually you will get it. Some don't last that long, and others go on to cross oceans.People take driving lessons, golf, batting, and the list is huge.......i2f

boatman61 27-06-2011 18:23

Re: What ever happened to learn by doing???? Read a book and go for it
 
Maybe there a lot of members who are underemployed ASA instructors....:whistling:

zeehag 27-06-2011 18:28

Re: What ever happened to learn by doing???? Read a book and go for it
 
i learned to sail from age 7 hands on with a tallshipman in his antique awesome sloop.... we learned a lot from him and most in old ways of doing things--LOL....
i have met a buncha really not bright sailing instructors--not all are good not all are not bright---i like the way i learned.

capttman 27-06-2011 18:31

Great mixed reactions, see the way I see it is ya learn the trade by being an apprentice. Maybe it's because I've been sailing since I was six years old that I'm missing the point on why so much a need for structured lessons.. Medicine was learned by doing now it's screwed up by professors and academics. I learned to drive on the farm as did my kids, I guess Huxley was wrong it's not a brave new world it is a whimps paradise..

capttman 27-06-2011 18:34

Also I have met many out there with a Great resume who shouldn't be sailing in a bathtub... That's partly why I be askin some of this....

boatman61 27-06-2011 18:34

Re: What ever happened to learn by doing???? Read a book and go for it
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by capttman (Post 717106)
Great mixed reactions, see the way I see it is ya learn the trade by being an apprentice. Maybe it's because I've been sailing since I was six years old that I'm missing the point on why so much a need for structured lessons.. Medicine was learned by doing now it's screwed up by professors and academics. I learned to drive on the farm as did my kids, I guess Huxley was wrong it's not a brave new world it is a whimps paradise..

ROFL.... right on...:thumb:

cheoah 27-06-2011 18:42

Re: What ever happened to learn by doing???? Read a book and go for it
 
I took a couple of classes early on, did not have any friends who sailed and I had read a ton. It gave me a lot of confidence and I was single handing up and down the southeast US coast within a couple years. Not that that is some big accomplishment, but it was the beginning phase of learning by doing and gave me a huge jump start. You can always learn something from a class like that, and I'd take another if I had lots of money, just to learn some more tricks like using a spring line at the dock. I guess much depends on the instructor, but some of those people have to know stuff I don't know.

The school of hard knocks is a heck of a way to learn - in its extreme, not a prudent way to advance. Personal responsibility and taking sailing classes are not mutually exclusive. I figure it will take a lifetime to "master" some of these skills and I'll try some seminars or maybe even a webinar. I might even hang out on a forum and learn something from the 'ol salts ;)

Capt Phil 27-06-2011 18:55

Re: What ever happened to learn by doing???? Read a book and go for it
 
Coolrun has the right idea, IMHO...
I recall a neighbor in an up wind slip across from us years ago who had a beautiful Hans Christian 43. He had never sailed before but arranged for the PO to sail with him to his new slip, about a 16 hour run. His first trip out alone with an equally inexperienced crew and his rather disaterous return to the dock was a nightmare from which he nearly didn't recover. He was about to put boat on the market when we struck up a friendship and I went out regularly with him off and on all summer. Although he was a fairly fast learner, he would have been better off going to a sailing school that offered more than just sailing around the bay when I was available. Even though he was a voracious reader of everything nautical he could lay his hands on, he told me he learned more from an afternoon aboard than he did from volumes of boating books. He never became comfortable sailing as a skipper on his own boat but he still is a good friend, although now boatless.
The lesson here is it takes hands on experience as well as some study to become proficient, confident and competent. The more experience you have under varying sea and weather conditions, the more confident you become in your abilities and the higher your awareness of dangerous situations before they develop into unmanageable ones. You can find folks who talk a good line, sound very competent but fall short in the practical application of skills.
My advice for what it's worth is start small, develop your practical skills and augment them with reading up on rules of the road, navigation, man overboard drills in varying situations, understand weather synopsis and forecasting, rigging, mechanical and sail maintenance, etc., and graduate to a larger vessel, heavy weather sailing, cruising fundementals, and on and on. Keep it under control but have FUN!! Just my opinion... Capt Phil

boatman61 27-06-2011 19:03

Re: What ever happened to learn by doing???? Read a book and go for it
 
The thing that worries me about sailing courses is... do they pass you on merit... or do they pass you to keep their books/pass rate looking good for 'fresh meat'.
Many years ago rather than teach a GF I sent her to an RYA sailing school in Devon... she returned with her Competent Crew Ticket....
Basically I ended up with someone just as inept as when she left but with the disadvantage of her questioning everything I said before she would do it... a new thing she'd apparently learnt on the course... previously she'd just done it...
It was a real PITA.... but it ended abruptly one June day when we were drifting in light winds down the coast from Soller, Majorca headed for Andratx... as we approached the channel between Dragonera and the main island I saw wind ripples ahead... realising it was an acceleration zone I told her to let go the Cruising Chute sheet which she had taken of the winch as it was "easier than pissing about with the winch..."
She proceeded to wrap it round her hand and with a smirk said..."Why...?"
30sec's later the wind hit and she flew up the seat and smashed into the bulkhead as the Chute suddenly expanded.... as she sat there gasping for breath I said quietly... "That's why...."
She never did forgive me... but she did learn an important lesson... Do it... then ask why...
We're still great friends.... but we have not sailed together since '98..... actually I don't think she's sailed since we split up...
A bit of paper in the hand makes many think they are more than they really are... and that goes all the way up to Yacht Master Ocean...
Sorry guys n Gals.... gotta serve the time... not just the course...

maytrix 27-06-2011 19:11

Re: What ever happened to learn by doing???? Read a book and go for it
 
I'm partly with you capttman...

I don't think you necessarily need a sailing certification, but some instruction is good.

I probably got my first sailing experience around 12-13 or something at camp. Sailed sunfish, hobie cats..etc. Did a bit here and there but nothing formal. At 19 or 20 I worked for a boat company on Cape Cod and work at all 3 of their locations renting boats. Largest was a 27' Sailboat.

In 2001 (8 years later), my wife and I honeymooned on St. Thomas. We rented a 27' foot motor boat for 1 day and went over to St. John for some snorkeling. 3 years ago we went to St. John with friends and took a boat out for a day. I saw all the sailboats and said "We should do that!"

The following year (2009) I organized a group and we chartered a 47' Leopard Catamaran with the Moorings with me as Captain. I actually didn't qualify for the 47' but a friend who was my co-captain did. Did it again the following year in October on a Leopard 46 and in December bought a 39' monohull.

I think the key is having some knowledge - certainly enough to be safe and know how to handle the boat. The other factor though is confidence - I knew probably just enough and had tons of confidence so we were always fine. Someone who knows everything though and has no confidence will probably have issues.

So I guess the key would be for someone to get enough training, whether it be formal or informal with friends in order to build the confidence they need to do it themselves.

Capt Phil 27-06-2011 19:34

Re: What ever happened to learn by doing???? Read a book and go for it
 
boatman61 said it best and in a lot fewer words than me... well done. Capt Phil

Jim Cate 27-06-2011 20:32

Re: What ever happened to learn by doing???? Read a book and go for it
 
Here's another vote for starting small and working up, and not trying to substitute lessons for experience... a very dangerous practice that is ratified by (guess who) the sailing schools.

And while perched upon my soapbox, I also don't think that chartering prepares one for cruising on your own boat. The real pitfalls of cruising aren't the sailing skills, important as they are, but the ability to deal with the realities of cruising... prosaic things like maintenance, provisioning, dealing with officials with no common language, anchoring in strange anchorages and so on. Sadly, the pampered environment of chartering fails in these areas.

OK, rant over, I'll retreat to sulk behind my computer screen.

Cheers,

Jim

VirtualVagabond 27-06-2011 21:37

Re: What ever happened to learn by doing???? Read a book and go for it
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by boatman61 (Post 717124)
The thing that worries me about sailing courses is... do they pass you on merit... or do they pass you to keep their books/pass rate looking good for 'fresh meat'.
Many years ago rather than teach a GF I sent her to an RYA sailing school in Devon... she returned with her Competent Crew Ticket....
Basically I ended up with someone just as inept as when she left but with the disadvantage of her questioning everything I said before she would do it... a new thing she'd apparently learnt on the course... previously she'd just done it...
It was a real PITA.... but it ended abruptly one June day when we were drifting in light winds down the coast from Soller, Majorca headed for Andratx... as we approached the channel between Dragonera and the main island I saw wind ripples ahead... realising it was an acceleration zone I told her to let go the Cruising Chute sheet which she had taken of the winch as it was "easier than pissing about with the winch..."
She proceeded to wrap it round her hand and with a smirk said..."Why...?"
30sec's later the wind hit and she flew up the seat and smashed into the bulkhead as the Chute suddenly expanded.... as she sat there gasping for breath I said quietly... "That's why...."
She never did forgive me... but she did learn an important lesson... Do it... then ask why...
We're still great friends.... but we have not sailed together since '98..... actually I don't think she's sailed since we split up...
A bit of paper in the hand makes many think they are more than they really are... and that goes all the way up to Yacht Master Ocean...
Sorry guys n Gals.... gotta serve the time... not just the course...

Boatman... I bet it's never even occured to you that maybe you're the one who can't sail! I mean... you've never done the course or anything have you? Maybe you just think you can sail... :whistling:

sailorchic34 27-06-2011 21:47

Re: What ever happened to learn by doing???? Read a book and go for it
 
I learned sailing on my brothers 14' boats way back in the mid 70's. Then got my own force 5/ laser dinghy and sailed quite a bit. I'm a bit of a reader too so read everything related to sailing/boating. Worked up to 22', 37' and now on my own 34'. I've also docked a 56' junk a time or two too.

For some a sailing school is the way to go, for others its learn as you go. Both have their pluses and minuses and either works. In the end, we all learn by doing.

jackdale 27-06-2011 21:50

Re: What ever happened to learn by doing???? Read a book and go for it
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by boatman61 (Post 717124)
Sorry guys n Gals.... gotta serve the time... not just the course...

Helm time is essential. I get way too many students attempting advanced level courses when they do not a a feel for the boat. I have a rather high failure rate among those students. I will sign them off for the theory but not the afloat skills.

My all time favourite line from a student was " You know Jack, I have read a lot books about sailing." My rejoinder was " You know, I have done a lot of sailing."

It is not an either / or situation. You need to understand the theories, rules, etc., and you need to be able to demonstrate that you can sail.

davefromoregon 27-06-2011 22:04

Re: What ever happened to learn by doing???? Read a book and go for it
 
If your situation allows you to really learn to sail without the lessons go for it. I have found the classes useful as a supplement to sailing via a club and reading.

Since it will be some time before I buy a boat, having taken 104, I can more easily charter a boat. If my situation were different perhaps the classes would neither be necessary nor useful, but as it is, those classes act as a proxy for determining if I can handle larger boats with more systems.

I The classes were not perfect but did constitute an enjoyable weekend each time.

Starbuck 27-06-2011 22:22

Re: What ever happened to learn by doing???? Read a book and go for it
 
Of the two most popular answers, "Take a class" has to be the safest one to tell the vast majority of posters who ask this question.

If you give that answer, 3/4 of them will do it, and the other 1/4 will ignore you, find an information source on their own (book, etc.) and get out on the water to make their own mistakes, or start crewing on OPBs as a hands-on school. That 1/4 is the kind who likes to challenge themselves.

If you give the other answer, "Just get out there and do it!" then you're going to put many more people out on the water who really should be in a class. That will mean trouble for them and everyone around them, disappointment, injury, and won't do a good job of promoting our sport/pass-time/lifestyle.

The first answer is the more responsible one, given that one must give a one-size-fits-all response.

genomic 27-06-2011 22:27

Re: What ever happened to learn by doing???? Read a book and go for it
 
I learned to ski by trial and error and have probably now spent hundreds of hours on the slopes. I'm not bad, all things considered, but my stance and technique are terrible, and are now quite ingrained. I.e. it'll take a hell of a lot more work to unlearn my bad habits than to initially learn good habits. So, yeah, I wish I'd originally taken the lessons.

speakeasy 27-06-2011 23:00

Re: What ever happened to learn by doing???? Read a book and go for it
 
Boatman, Jim Cate and Starbuck ~ :thumb:

I think in reality, as if, it is a function of personality. If one has always stuck his/her neck out to do a new thing, then hands on right now is the way to go. But experience is the coin of the realm. Getting it where one can, with friends, crewing on a race boat, etc. is great. Reading books is also great. I used to say, a few decades back, that any field could be learned sufficient to enter by reading 3 books and learning the 25 most important words of that realm and how they interrelated. To be really good, at anything worth doing, will take a long time of, well, doing it. That's one of the pleasant thoughts I've always entertained about cruising. I may/will undoubtedly never learn all there is to know about the sea and sailing it. I hate being bored and think it is the most underrated motivation to human activity that exists.

The other great determinant of approach, is your resources, your class. If you have little you will be direct and resourceful or you will not succeed.

SaucySailoress 27-06-2011 23:53

Re: What ever happened to learn by doing???? Read a book and go for it
 
For the last 15 years, since I got to Kuwait, I have been learning to sail by going on boats with other people, then by buying a boat to ensure that I could sail when I wanted. Then buying a bigger boat when I could afford it and so on...

Admitted, ten years ago we imported an RYA instructor who gave some of us our Day Skipper, and a few of us our Yachtmaster ticket... and to be fair he imparted a lot of valuable information. And caused a lot of rows in his wake about how to do stuff that before had just got done!

Years ago I heard the story of a British family who caused uproar by buying a boat, sailing off around the world, and getting killed in the Bay of Biscay. The uproar was huge, talk of introducing legislation, licences and all that. As if licences make good sailors. Nope.

Like driving licences, sailing licences should be given after a separate test from the course, so they denote the good sailors. At the moment, I believe that only happens at the Yachtmaster level, and not the all important Day Skipper level which folk are after in order to be able to charter.

VirtualVagabond 28-06-2011 00:39

Re: What ever happened to learn by doing???? Read a book and go for it
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Starbuck (Post 717226)
Of the two most popular answers, "Take a class" has to be the safest one to tell the vast majority of posters who ask this question.

If you give that answer, 3/4 of them will do it, and the other 1/4 will ignore you, find an information source on their own (book, etc.) and get out on the water to make their own mistakes, or start crewing on OPBs as a hands-on school. That 1/4 is the kind who likes to challenge themselves.

If you give the other answer, "Just get out there and do it!" then you're going to put many more people out on the water who really should be in a class. That will mean trouble for them and everyone around them, disappointment, injury, and won't do a good job of promoting our sport/pass-time/lifestyle.

The first answer is the more responsible one, given that one must give a one-size-fits-all response.

Starbuck, I'm going to have a shot at you in the nicest possible way.:flowers:

It looks to me like your advice is exactly the same as the "I must do a course" mentality.
"I don't want to get it wrong, so I'll do the course" = "I don't want to be responsible for wrong advice, so I'll advise they take a course".

I get so frustrated when we all take the safe option. Surely we've got to live on the edge a little or we just become institutionalised clones.

I don't think many would have to go out and buy a sunfish and drift around trying to work it out. But you could. The basics of making a boat sail are so simple it's ridiculous, but developing the skills and judgement of a true sailor is the work of a lifetime, not a sailing school.
By far the majority would have a friend who sails, or could front up at a club and offer to be rail meat at the next club race.


On another thread a guy has gone missing... wife woke up to find she was alone. It's tragic, but it was daytime and flat calm with little wind an no real reason to fear going overboard.
Who knows? The guy may have had a stroke, heart attack, or been pissed. It's tough, but guys get struck by lightening on the golf course too.
I for one know I wouldn't have had a lifejacket on or been tethered, and I reckon 90% of sailors would be the same. But suddenly everyone is critical of the poor guy, and selfrighteously going on about always having a jacket on and always being tethered.
I like cruisers because we're a hotch potch of independent, colourful characters who refuse to be nipped and tucked until we all fit the same mold.
Sailing schools serve a purpose for some, I guess, but I sure hope we're not heading for a time when bland clones rule, or we'll never see the likes of Knox-Johnson, Moitessier, Slocum and Tristan Jones again.

Now that was worth a damn site more than 2c! :D

genomic 28-06-2011 01:10

Re: What ever happened to learn by doing???? Read a book and go for it
 
"I get so frustrated when we all take the safe option. Surely we've got to live on the edge a little or we just become institutionalised clones."

I don't think anyone is suggesting that a person must do all available courses before daring to take the helm on their own, but suggesting that a few introductory courses may aid a beginner is far from turing them into iSailors.

Talbot 28-06-2011 01:34

Re: What ever happened to learn by doing???? Read a book and go for it
 
As a species we are hard wired to learn by experience. Darwin showes that those that do not learn very quickly are less likely to be successful than those who demonstrate a fast learning process.

Personally I have found it faster and significantly cheaper to learn by someone elses mistakes.

capttman 28-06-2011 02:59

Re: What ever happened to learn by doing???? Read a book and go for it
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by VirtualVagabond (Post 717276)
Starbuck, I'm going to have a shot at you in the nicest possible way.:flowers:

It looks to me like your advice is exactly the same as the "I must do a course" mentality.
"I don't want to get it wrong, so I'll do the course" = "I don't want to be responsible for wrong advice, so I'll advise they take a course".

I get so frustrated when we all take the safe option. Surely we've got to live on the edge a little or we just become institutionalised clones.

I don't think many would have to go out and buy a sunfish and drift around trying to work it out. But you could. The basics of making a boat sail are so simple it's ridiculous, but developing the skills and judgement of a true sailor is the work of a lifetime, not a sailing school.
By far the majority would have a friend who sails, or could front up at a club and offer to be rail meat at the next club race.


On another thread a guy has gone missing... wife woke up to find she was alone. It's tragic, but it was daytime and flat calm with little wind an no real reason to fear going overboard.
Who knows? The guy may have had a stroke, heart attack, or been pissed. It's tough, but guys get struck by lightening on the golf course too.
I for one know I wouldn't have had a lifejacket on or been tethered, and I reckon 90% of sailors would be the same. But suddenly everyone is critical of the poor guy, and selfrighteously going on about always having a jacket on and always being tethered.
I like cruisers because we're a hotch potch of independent, colourful characters who refuse to be nipped and tucked until we all fit the same mold.
Sailing schools serve a purpose for some, I guess, but I sure hope we're not heading for a time when bland clones rule, or we'll never see the likes of Knox-Johnson, Moitessier, Slocum and Tristan Jones again.

Now that was worth a damn site more than 2c! :D



:thumb:

boatman61 28-06-2011 03:12

Re: What ever happened to learn by doing???? Read a book and go for it
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by VirtualVagabond (Post 717214)
Boatman... I bet it's never even occured to you that maybe you're the one who can't sail! I mean... you've never done the course or anything have you? Maybe you just think you can sail... :whistling:

Virtual.... if you look back at any claims I've made you'll maybe see I've never claimed to be a 'Yachtsman/Sailor.... I've even stated that there's many on here who could likely sail rings round me...
My only claim is that I'm a Seaman... thats what I served as in the Navy... and is all I'll ever be...
Wiki's Definition...
Seaman is one of the lowest ranks in a Navy. In the Commonwealth it is the lowest rank in the Navy, followed by Able Seaman and Leading Seaman, and followed by the Petty Officer ranks.
In the United States it means the lowest three enlisted rates of the U.S. Navy, followed by the higher Petty Officer ranks. The equivalent of the seaman, in French-speaking countries, is the Matelot.
The term "seaman" is also a general-purpose for a man or a woman who works anywhere on board a modern ship, including in the engine spaces, which is the very opposite of sailing. Furthermore, "seaman" is a short form for the status of an "able-bodied seaman", either in the navies or in the merchant marines. An able-bodied seaman is one who is fully trained and qualified to work on the decks and superstructure of modern ships, even during foul weather, whereas less-qualified sailors are restricted to remaining within the ship during times of foul weather - lest they be swept overboard by the stormy seas or by the high winds.

As you can see I have no illusions of granduer mate....:p

sailorboy1 28-06-2011 03:17

Re: What ever happened to learn by doing???? Read a book and go for it
 
another way to look at lessons is....paying to practice on someone else's boat


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