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Kai Nui 17-02-2006 19:33

Should this trouble discussion be closed?
It seems to be the talk of the town. To kill the thread or not What is your opinion. Should "Unfortunate turn" be eliminated, or should it go on?

CaptainK 17-02-2006 20:48

Kill it. It's really not serving any purpose here on this forum. Except creating alot of heated arguements!! :D

hammerfelt 17-02-2006 21:30

I would say kill it: a few of their supporters and perhaps the owners of the bum website are actively keeping the thread running to generate interest, and thereby directing more people to their website. (There are many posts by people who have just signed up, and I have a feeling "Bum" really likes pizza; even if that is not the case, we have at least some suspicion, and cruisers forum does not strike me as a place where suspicion is that rampant) I was at first curious whether the 2 adventurers knew about this site, and whether they might be alerted to this, and perhaps they would respond to any posts. I am now aprehensive about the prospect, so they have managed set me against their publicity driven endeavors, through demeaning comments about this very forum on their website. And I would like to point out that I am new to this forum (Dec), and have just read most of the posts, and started out being quite neutral and in admiration that others have the means to go on such a journey.

There may be some point of discussing their adventures etc, but one would hope that those on this forum who want to devote such a big section to the adventures of just one couple, would rather post comments on the couple's website, which is where such discussions really belong.

My 2 cents.

CaptainK 17-02-2006 23:30

I agree with hammerfelt.

The trolls that were appearing on this website were very fanatical. And straight to the point of firing their salvos directly at this entire board.

Not just once. Not just twice. But more than a dozen times for the past year alone!! And I believe, we have given them plenty of time and patience. To verify their claims, and asked for apologys. Heck, I apologized after firing a few salvos!!

I also wouldn't doubt. That some of the posters' were the "fuzzles" themselves. Trying to get us to heat up. So they can brag about it on their website. For the publicity?

I say let's bury the hachet. And break out the shovel. And dig a grave for this thread. And bury it once and for all. Before this thread stinks up the entire forum.

NoTies 18-02-2006 09:16

I say nuke it. It started off on the subject of delamination and the thread has continued to delaminate since then. It has generated some worthwhile debate and I've poked my oar in a couple of times, but when it becomes a target for trolls it's time to move on. Is there a way of retaining the thread but preventing futher posts or do you think this will just result in new threads being started?

capt lar 18-02-2006 10:04

Someone wondered on the "turn" thread recently if we treated "outsiders" differently...with less tolerance. I did not respond there, but I will here. We all have areas of strength and weakness in our nautical skills "bag of tricks". Maybe someone is not an experienced sailor, but they may have plenty of sea time, or mechanical skills, or electrical skills, or just a strong desire to learn. These folks are well received anywhere. They are well received on this Forum. I have never read a post where a civil newbie was ignored or insulted. We are occasionally harsh on boats or equipment, but very rarely people. We police ourselves if needed. While I participate on a few other BB's, this one is, for me, the most diverse in age groups, skill levels, budgets, humor, nationality and points of view. With all that, we remain a very civil group most of the time.
Those with other agendas......who benefits ?


ssullivan 18-02-2006 11:23

I say "kill it" as well. In all honesty, I haven't even read the entire thing. It's boring and not very useful. It's a bunch of hearsay.

This is the *only* forum I've ever seen online where people behave and treat each other with respect. We really are a community here. What I've seen of that thread seems to go against the spirit of the community on this forum.

swagman 18-02-2006 15:36

Yes please - remove it completely.


Jon D 19-02-2006 16:44

Not sure it should be removed but it definitely should be locked.

Kai Nui 20-02-2006 17:46

I have made a very specific effort to not show a preference either way to make this an impartial thread. What I have noticed is the couple of people who posted against shutting down the thread have not posted a reason. I would be interested in the points behind not shutting it down. It seems most of the votes in favor of shutting it down have posted a reason.
In all fairness, I probably should have named the thread differently, but unfortunately, I was unable to change it once it was set up.
I would really like to see a fair sample of members at least post a vote, and I would also like to see some points in favor of keeping it going. While I may have formed an opinion, I am open to opinions. Who knows, you might change someone's mind.
I am very glad to see this not turn into an argument, as it was meant to do nothing more than represent to the site admin, the general opinion of the members.

BC Mike 20-02-2006 19:39

Kill it
It is being targeted deliberately, as in mined with sucker shots.
All that needs to have been said has.
It is not setting a good tone of propper ediket.
Most of the thread sucks.
Need more reasons ? Just my opinion.

Alan Wheeler 20-02-2006 20:44

Not sure if ALL who post are trolling. Definately the Fuzzles are using it for their own personal manipulation and web promotion. I think others that come here from there, have had their judgment clouded by the fuzzles, but it changes once they get to know us.
There is some good info held within the pages. I am unsure if the good has been outweighed by the bad, to the point of where it is now a useless thread. I still stand by many of the points I have made. But as seen, they easily get taken out of context and screwed to be used in a cowedly and manipulitive way. I am disapointed that Pat has never posted here, (even though he is a member) to talk through issues and get to understand the real reasoning behind many of the comments made by all here.
For those that think we are just old men with nothing better to do but winge away at the ones that are out doing it, well we are not. We have simply never had a reply from Pat. The thread would suddenly look very different if Pat had been involved in it.

Another thought though, if it get's pulled, I bet a certain someone will use that also for their gain.

Kai Nui 20-02-2006 20:49

Interesting and VERY valid points. Especially the last one.

CaptainK 20-02-2006 21:05

Roman Emperor at the colosium.


Kill the thread!!

It'll be more easier to monitor the new thread, from the trolls!!

And once the trolls set their grimy paws onto the new thread. We warn the administrator about it. And shut it down more quickly?

That's my thought, at least I spoke up?

GordMay 21-02-2006 04:30

Free speech and the typical cruisers’ free spirit are inextricably entwined.

I believe that it’s axiomatic, that the right to free speech is one of the most important and fundamental rights of liberty. Rather than exercising the power of censorship in the hands of the moderator, I advocate the empowerment of individual users to exercise their right to choose the information that they see, hear, and speak on the forum. Freedom of expression includes the right to say something outrageous, something offensive, and even something stupid. The best way to counter obnoxious speech is with more speech. Persuasion, not coercion, is the solution. Conflicts surrounding intellectual freedom are conflicts of values. There is no objective "right" or "wrong." Both sides have "the truth," - that is, their version of the truth, on their side.

As John Stuart Mill wrote (“On Liberty”): “...But the peculiar evil of silencing the expression of an opinion is, that it is robbing the human race; posterity as well as the existing generation; those who dissent from the opinion, still more than those who hold it. If the opinion is right, they are deprived of the opportunity of exchanging error for truth: if wrong, they lose, what is almost as great a benefit, the clearer perception and livelier impression of truth, produced by its collision with error ...”

I submit that, in any case of proposed censorship, the burden of proof lies with the accuser. It’s a well founded principle that the burden of proof always lies on the party who takes the affirmative in pleading. This is true in criminal law (innocent until proven guilty), civil law (plaintiff must prove allegations) and in formal debate. I didn’t previously argue my position (don't close), as it appeared (to me) to be a simple prima facie case of “dismissed for insufficient evidence ”, and not requiring an affirmative defense.

The CruisersForum owner, AndyR, may disagree and excercise his rights of control.

Respectfully,Gord May

From the Americans among us, I remind you of the reasonable sentiments expressed in:
Bill of Rights ~ Amendment I
“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.”

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