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-   -   Refugees at Sea (https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f158/refugees-at-sea-249833.html)

valhalla360 30-04-2021 05:35

Re: Refugees at Sea
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cyrus Safdari (Post 3397743)
Because not all undocumented are illegal. Being a refugee, seeking asylum status etc, are all quite legal.

Nope, until they have their paperwork in order, they are illegally in the country. Even your 1st link agrees that undocumented is an illegal alien.
- Undocumented immigrants, also called illegal aliens

The 2nd link is just dancing around the subject. It's a classic propaganda article.

Cyrus Safdari 30-04-2021 05:44

Re: Refugees at Sea
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rohan (Post 3395153)
In fact, Saudi Arabia could easily take in hundreds of thousands of their fellow Muslims....


Well, in fact:

Quote:

The Kingdom is home to an estimated 250,000500,000 Rohingya, 300,000400,000 Palestinians and 750,0001,000,000 Syrians.
https://refugeehistory.org/blog/2020/11/12/a-recent-history-of-refugees-in-saudi-arabia#:~:text=Thirty-five%20percent%20of%20Saudi,Palestinians%20and%207 50%2C0001%2C000%2C000%20Syrians.
Oh and

Quote:

In the 1990s, Iran sheltered a staggering 4.5 million exiles from Afghanistan and Iraq, the largest refugee caseload any single country has handled in modern times. The numbers have shrunk in the last few years to slightly more than two million people, but that figure is still twice as high as anywhere else...The Afghans received heavily subsidized state food, health and education packages and many refugees, including women, found local employment. https://www.unhcr.org/en-us/publications/refugeemag/3b6814092/refugees-magazine-issue-108-afghanistan-unending-crisis-iranian-surprise.html
Like previously noted almost all refugees are returned back. So the idea of masses of invading brown-skinned scary Muslims citizens stealing yer women is a fantasy, and not even a new one. At one point in history Catholic countries like Spain were so greatly concerned with an alliance of Protestants with the Ottomans and also N. African states. (The Barbary Pirates included many Dutch and British captains) that the came up with much of thecstandard Islamophobia bs we hear now.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Turkish_piracy
This meme of Muslims invading by the Med is quite old. https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/46929407.pdf and people are so easily manipulated by it lol

GordMay 30-04-2021 05:45

Re: Refugees at Sea
 
Evidently, the Biden administration has dropped “illegal alien” from government communications, directing officials to replace “alien” with “noncitizen,” and “illegal” with “undocumented”; thus, taking federal agencies out of the business of branding people, instead of actions, illegal. [by criminalizing the person, not the action they are purported to have committed]
As valhalla360 noted, in 2013, several news organizations announced a ban on the term “illegal immigrant,” including The Los Angeles Times and The Associated Press, because they said it lacked precision and broadly labeled a large group.

Here’s an interesting analysis of the question:
“Words Matter: Illegal Immigrant, Undocumented Immigrant, or Unauthorized Immigrant?” ~ by Jonathan Kwan
https://www.scu.edu/ethics/focus-are...zed-immigrant/


A few factoids:
WHY CAN’T UNDOCUMENTED IMMIGRANTS JUST “GET LEGAL?” AND OTHER IMMIGRATION REFORM FAQ
https://americasvoice.org/why-don’t-...ration-reform/


In the end, our choice of descriptors may just boil down to our world view.
Some of us will choose to describe people, of whom we disapprove, using the more pejorative terms, some of us will choose more neutral, so-called “PC” terms.

Cyrus Safdari 30-04-2021 05:47

Re: Refugees at Sea
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by valhalla360 (Post 3397750)
Vast majority are economic driven. Of course, this may be inadvertently driving the destruction in their home country. It's a lot like cities in the USA where first the wealthy departed...


Comparing refugees to wealthy Americans who decide to move to a better neighborhood is frankly obscene
And in the USA what happened was called White Flight, due to racial issues https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_flight

valhalla360 30-04-2021 06:24

Re: Refugees at Sea
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cyrus Safdari (Post 3397762)
Comparing refugees to wealthy Americans who decide to move to a better neighborhood is frankly obscene
And in the USA what happened was called White Flight, due to racial issues https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_flight

You can argue the level of poverty is different but the process is very similar.

People didn't flee the cities because of the color of the neighbor's skin. These cities built up, expanded and grew wealthy with a host of races present, so that doesn't explain it.

Crime, riots, destruction initially drove people out and then as things went downhill good jobs left. Those who were productive had options to get out and took them.

Eventually the political elite (often living in semi fortified neighborhoods with extensive and aggressive policing) would pander to the remaining population while ensconcing themselves in power at the expense of the common people.

You are the one who made the leap to those early productive members leaving being equivalent to refugees. I recall middle eastern immigrants back in the 80's coming into SE Michigan. They were generally comparatively wealthy even by US standards. With the work ethic coming from a much tougher environment they often did very well. While a few complained, they were generally a positive impact on the community. Of course, they were largely coming in legally with their paperwork done ahead of time.

Over time, it has changed and now they are largely poor illegal aliens or refugees coming in and the relationship has changed.

It's all a very similar pattern

Cyrus Safdari 30-04-2021 06:38

Re: Refugees at Sea
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by valhalla360 (Post 3397788)
You can argue the level of poverty is ...

No, no you cant.


You do realize there's been a raging civil war in Syria, and also the worlds worst humanitarian disaster in Yemen, right?

The smug out-of-touchness is simply astounding.

boatman61 30-04-2021 06:48

Re: Refugees at Sea
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cyrus Safdari (Post 3397803)
No, no you cant.


You do realize there's been a raging civil war in Syria, and also the worlds worst humanitarian disaster in Yemen, right?

The smug out-of-touchness is simply astounding.

And who's agenda are these and Libya the result of.???

valhalla360 30-04-2021 06:50

Re: Refugees at Sea
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cyrus Safdari (Post 3397803)
You do realize there's been a raging civil war in Syria, and also the worlds worst humanitarian disaster in Yemen, right?

The smug out-of-touchness is simply astounding.

Well aware. I have a Syrian friend trapped in Kuwait because he can't get a visa to any other country so his only option is to go back to Syria if he leaves.

That doesn't change the pattern discussed.

Once things go in the crapper, you have a very hard time getting out of the situation because the productive and stabilizing population is too small and holds too little power. It might not be open warfare in Detroit, but it's pretty darn bad and there is no light at the end of the tunnel. About the only difference is they are limited to guns and not rocket launchers.

So it leads to the very realistic question, should we be taking in economic migrants who are simply trying to escape the local economy when that undermines the country making it less stable. (no this wont' solve Syria but for other countries not as far down the road does it create a bulwark of stable productive citizens).

Cyrus Safdari 30-04-2021 07:00

Re: Refugees at Sea
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by boatman61 (Post 3397817)
And who's agenda are these and Libya the result of.???

Western countries, who are also arming both sides


Quote:

In Syria, militias armed by the Pentagon fight those armed by the CIA
https://www.latimes.com/world/middle...327-story.html
Do people have any idea how many weapons the Pentagon has said have "gone missing"?

Iraq
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...pment-in-iraq/


Afghanistan
https://ottawacitizen.com/news/natio...in-afghanistan

Yemen
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...8ff_story.html

And then complain when refugees come

cooper1991 30-04-2021 07:44

Re: Refugees at Sea
 
The term is unwanted ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS. No European country wants them as they will bring nothing to European culture except division, crime and financial drain. The solution is for USA to stop meddling in Arab countries affairs and let Europe/Rest of the World provide help on the legal soil of the illegal immigrants. Some of these people are desperate, others are mainly young men chancing their luck. TBH this is not really a cruiser issue, it's political.

Syria? It's about Qatar - Turkey - Europe gas lines. Russia it's gas lines going (80%) through Ukraine to Europe. Some people call that competition, others war. All money and greed with some poor people caught in the middle.

Cyrus Safdari 30-04-2021 08:15

Re: Refugees at Sea
 
There are refugees all over the world and European countries aren't even close to the top of the list of places they're at. But that you consider this some sort of invasion and threat to "European Culture" is funny considering that about the only unique commonality that could define a common European Culture is Chrisitianity, a very much Middle Eastern religion, much of it from Syria in fact, and not the only Mideast cultural influence that pretty much shaped the West either https://www.bbc.com/culture/article/...haped-the-west People in Europe along with all the rest of the world have been mixing it up with everyone else for a long time before this most recent panic about brown people coming over.

Think about that the next time you're sippping coffee (Arabian)

valhalla360 30-04-2021 08:39

Re: Refugees at Sea
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by cooper1991 (Post 3397872)
The term is unwanted ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS. No European country wants them as they will bring nothing to European culture except division, crime and financial drain. The solution is for USA to stop meddling in Arab countries affairs and let Europe/Rest of the World provide help on the legal soil of the illegal immigrants. Some of these people are desperate, others are mainly young men chancing their luck. TBH this is not really a cruiser issue, it's political.

Syria? It's about Qatar - Turkey - Europe gas lines. Russia it's gas lines going (80%) through Ukraine to Europe. Some people call that competition, others war. All money and greed with some poor people caught in the middle.

I won't for a second say the USA hasn't done some mucking up in the area but the idea that if the USA were to simply step back, Europe would step in and fix things is just foolish.

Ever since the Ottoman Empire became the sick man of Europe, Europe has been trying to "fix" things and it's gone down hill at every step. Most of the modern countries we see today were either former colonies of Europe or were formed by Europe via fiat rule.

Oil wealth definitely has been more of a curse than a blessing to the area but again, that was hardly limited to US interference. Much of the strife can be traced back in some degree to oil wealth unbalancing the historical power structure of the area and encouraging outside agents (pretty much everyone) to stir the power structure pot for their benefit.

It is a cruising issue when the Med is one of the most popular cruising destinations in the world and the illegal aliens are using it as a water route. That brings them into contact and potential conflict with cruisers.

Cyrus Safdari 30-04-2021 08:45

Re: Refugees at Sea
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by valhalla360 (Post 3397920)
I , Europe has been trying to "fix" things .

Only if by "fix things" you mean colonialism.

valhalla360 30-04-2021 08:55

Re: Refugees at Sea
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cyrus Safdari (Post 3397927)
Only if by "fix things" you mean colonialism.

I wasn't suggesting they could "fix things". I was pointing out that they have had a fair bit of time to fix things before the USA ever got involved and it only went downhill, so why should we expect them to suddenly have the answers.

PS: Coffee is from Ethiopia, not Arabia. I dare you to go to Ethiopia and tell people they are Arabs.

Cyrus Safdari 30-04-2021 09:15

Re: Refugees at Sea
 
they have had a fair bit of time to fix things...

No. Actually they CAUSED much of the current conflicts, in Africa for example by drawing borders in disregard of local tribal political alliances. The British in Persian Gulf: Ever wonder why Kuwait, a tiny country, has so much coastline while Iraq, a much larger country, does not?


Coffee and qahwa: How a drink for Arab mystics went global

https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-22190802

Arabs are simply people who speak Arabic, from many countries, cultures, colors and "races" and they're not even really representative of Muslims (the largest Muslim country on Earth is neither Arab nor Mideastern) Many M8deasterners arent Arab etc etc

While you're at it, look up candy, tulips, Seersucker, mint julep, ice cream, pajamas, spinnach...


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