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Tupaia 25-04-2021 02:47

Re: Refugees at Sea
 
You definitions sum it up.


The majority of those in the med are NOT refugees they are illegal economic migrants. No different than vagabonds boarding your boat and expecting to be given the contents of your fridge and hand out from your wallet.


I have no problem supporting humanitarian efforts within affected countries but people who choose to leave those countries with the intention of illegally entering another for a better lifestyle or monetary gain should not be rewarded by being treated as refugees. They are also preventing the fair treatment of people who are truly being persecuted.



The traffickers themselves who knowingly take money for organising the trips are no better than murderers and are being aided and abetted by the NGO's that operate rescue services.

Group9 25-04-2021 05:53

Re: Refugees at Sea
 
There are a lot of countries I would prefer to live in, than where I am now. But, I've never thought I had the right to just show up, and demand to be taken in.

flightlead404 25-04-2021 06:05

Re: Refugees at Sea
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by double u (Post 3393503)
...doesn't "migrant" imply the consent of the country of destination?

No. Why would it?

flightlead404 25-04-2021 06:08

Re: Refugees at Sea
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by boatman61 (Post 3393554)
Its standard practice for the uneffected Liberals to bleat about this.. you won't find them getting the views of the Greeks, Sicilians, Italians and others having to put up with the mainly young males making this trip about the violence and crime they inevitably bring with them.
Breaking..
A female police employee was stabbed to death by a Tunisian man at a police station southwest of Paris today.

From a fiercely liberal person....

We are LONG past the time we should be discussing and implementing global, mandatory birth control.

Why aren't we?

carlosproa 25-04-2021 06:23

Re: Refugees at Sea
 
The story of humanity is messy from its beginning to present day. We were just in a prolonged lull and so is disconcerting for many people the latest migratory movement.
Letís start with home sapiens and how they pushed into nearthandal territory, wiping most of them and intermixing with few of them. Geographical, economical,and or climate conditions dictates mass migration. Ask native Americans from Patagonia to Alaska how the feel about the migration the wiped them out? Or the wave of illegal immigration into the US? Most third generation Americans have a Rama tic view that their ancestors migrated legally, when they Can just go back and see that less than 25% of Irish, Italian, Swedes, Germans, and other European immigrants came here legally.
The old adage about immigration was: ďif you donít want immigrants in you country, help your neighbor become very attractive to stay.

boatman61 25-04-2021 06:24

Re: Refugees at Sea
 
The UK is going through this as well...
Economic migrants from Afghanistan, Iran, Pakistan and some African countries are making their way into Europe and through several 'Safe' countries to the French coast on the Channel and riding dinghy's across to get into the UK.
Mainly because the UK is seen as a soft touch..
The French 'escort' the dinghies to UK territorial waters where they are picked up by Border Force boats, taken into Dover and then put on coaches to be ferried to hotels across the country where they are accommodated, given 3 squares a day and basic needs pocket money.
There have been stabbing incidences, robberies and assaults in and around these hotels.
They do themselves no favor with a sense of entitlement that equates them on a par with the hardcore 'Dole Scroungers' in the native population.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/128043...office-4-star/

But this and other temporary accommodation is not good enough for them.. even though it's 100's of times better than what is available in Greece.

https://www.breitbart.com/europe/202...army-barracks/

Cyrus Safdari 25-04-2021 13:08

Re: Refugees at Sea
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Group9 (Post 3394512)
. But, I've never thought I had the right to just show up, and demand to be taken in.

Most of the worlds refugees are hosted by Turkey, Uganda etc so not exactly at your door step.
Escaping war and other global crises is not just a preference and people don't trek across continents for fun
And yes actually you do have a right to show up and the host state's responsibility to take you in, determine your status and if qualified provide you with assistance. This is how civilized society works. This isn't a liberal vs conservative issue.
And not so long ago it was Westerners who were the refugees.
https://www.printmag.com/post/polish-refugees-in-iran

Cyrus Safdari 25-04-2021 13:18

Re: Refugees at Sea
 
Hate to break the new to y'all but the mass refugee movement resulting from global warming is just beginning. The "crisis" so far was from refugees from wars in the mideast resulting from the invasion of Iraq and destabilization of Syria but the real crisis is global warming which isn't going to only affect "those people"
People can be ticked off at refugees but that's just a symptom, and dismiss global warming all they want but reality will just wash it away under rising waters. It is ironic that people from poor places that had the least to do with causing global warming will be paying the price more than anyone else https://www.nrdc.org/onearth/climate...n-around-globe

Group9 25-04-2021 14:25

Re: Refugees at Sea
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cyrus Safdari (Post 3394794)
Hate to break the new to y'all but the mass refugee movement resulting from global warming is just beginning. The "crisis" so far was from refugees from wars in the mideast resulting from the invasion of Iraq and destabilization of Syria but the real crisis is global warming which isn't going to only affect "those people"
People can be ticked off at refugees but that's just a symptom, and dismiss global warming all they want but reality will just wash it away under rising waters. It is ironic that people from poor places that had the least to do with causing global warming will be paying the price more than anyone else https://www.nrdc.org/onearth/climate...n-around-globe

I hate to break it to you. But, taking a place that has been a shithole for three centuries, and trying to convince us it is now a shithole due to global warming, just isn't going to cut it in the gullibility department..

Cyrus Safdari 25-04-2021 18:34

Re: Refugees at Sea
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Group9 (Post 3394850)
I hate to break it to you. But, taking a place that has been a shithole for three centuries, and trying to convince us it is now a shithole due to global warming, just isn't going to cut it in the gullibility department..

Umm...not sure what you're going on about but global warming is creating refugees all over the world.

Rohan 25-04-2021 19:06

Re: Refugees at Sea
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cyrus Safdari (Post 3394399)
And if you were in their placed, you'd do the same. Maybe your grandparents did the same.
https://www.history.com/news/wwii-je...-st-louis-1939

Everyone likes to bring up the St. Louis. But here's the thing - they were nothing like today's asylum seekers. They were fleeing actual political persecution, not poverty.


Quote:

About 1% of the worlds population are refugees. Half are women and children.
Not the ones arriving in boats to Europe.


Quote:

FYI the countries who take in the most refugees aren't even Western. Among the the top ten recipients of refugees, there are 1or 2 European countries (Germany, Sweden) that take most refugees.
https://www.nrc.no/perspectives/2020...most-refugees/
This is extremely misleading. I see that talking point a lot on leftist sites. Yes, the majority right now are in countries like Lebanon and Turkey, because they border Syria, and there's still a civil war going on.

But here's the misleading part - those refugees don't intend to stay there! There is no real plan to integrate them into those countries and for most people no path to citizenship. They are in camps largely funded by western countries, and they are basically waiting to either be settled somewhere else by the UN or for a chance to sneak into Europe.

Cyrus Safdari 25-04-2021 19:39

Re: Refugees at Sea
 
early 2016, women and children accounted for 55% of those reaching Greece
Does it really matter if by boat or land?


Migrant: Person on the move between countries. They can be on the move for many different
reasons including poverty or because they are fleeing natural disasters or war. Refugees, asylum
seekers and economic migrants are all migrants.


Refugee: People outside their country of origin because of feared persecution, conflict, violence, or
other circumstances that have seriously disturbed public order, and who, as a result, require
‘international protection’. Their situation is often so perilous and intolerable, that they cross national
borders to seek safety in nearby countries, and thus become internationally recognized as ‘refugees’
with access to assistance from states, UNHCR, and relevant organizations. Refugees are defined and
protected in international law.

https://reliefweb.int › resourcesPDF

Gender Analysis The Situation of Refugees and Migrants in Greece - ReliefWeb

Not sure what's wrong with migrants becoming citizens, what are they too brown? So the concern really isn't about safety at sea then is it lol?


The sons and daughters of refugees and migrants have been railing against the other more recently arriving migrants and refugees for a long time now, and politicians have long known how to stir up and exploit nativism and fear of foreigners , the people this applies to just changes. We in the US recently had laws banning immigration from Muslim countries.Not so long ago in the US we had laws prohibiting immigration by SouthernEuropean (Catholic) and Eastern European (jewish) people too and prohibited Chinese from becoming citizens and everything said about the migrants today was literally said back then about others. Literally, it was claimed Catholics were out to undermine America, after which the Pope would come do a victory tour.

A little bit of context and history puts the panic into perspective

StuM 25-04-2021 21:13

Re: Refugees at Sea
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cyrus Safdari (Post 3394977)
Umm...not sure what you're going on about but global warming is creating refugees all over the world.


Reference?

Cyrus Safdari 25-04-2021 21:43

Re: Refugees at Sea
 
Everyone has access to Google as I do,


https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...migration.html

Tuvalu and other small 8sland states are already depopulating and considering plans for mass migration though they're not happy about being called refugees. The average altitude of these islands is just a couple meters.
https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley....2/2014EF000278



The real impact is probably first coming from Bangladesh, which is already flooded and also happens to be one of the most populous countries in the world.


https://www.theguardian.com/global-d...climate-change

https://www.pri.org/stories/2019-03-...ing-bangladesh

Actusl facts and numbers matter.


Oh and in reality most refugees return to their country of origin...if it is still there and not underwater:

In 2019, only half a per cent of the world’s refugees were resettled. Over the past decade, just over 1 million refugees were resettled, compared to 3.9 million refugees who returned to their country https://www.amnesty.org/en/what-we-d...ics-and-facts/

GordMay 26-04-2021 02:06

Re: Refugees at Sea
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cyrus Safdari (Post 3394977)
Umm...not sure what you're going on about but global warming is creating refugees all over the world.

Quote:

Originally Posted by StuM (Post 3395028)
Reference?

The subject is rife with references:

“A New Framework for U.S. Leadership on Climate Migration” ~ Center for Strategic and International Studies (CSIS)
“Climate migration is poised to be one of the biggest human development and security challenges of the next several decades, yet policymakers and the research community are just now understanding the myriad impacts of climate change on human mobility ..”
https://www.csis.org/analysis/new-fr...mate-migration

“What climate change will mean for US security and geopolitics” ~ Brookings Institution
https://www.brookings.edu/blog/order...d-geopolitics/

“Climate change, migration and critical international security considerations” ~ Robert McLeman
https://publications.iom.int/system/files/pdf/mrs42.pdf

“Climate Change Migration: Developing a Security Strategy for All” ~ Rand Corp
https://www.rand.org/blog/2021/03/cl...-strategy.html

“Climate Change and National Security: Balancing the Costs and Benefits” ~ CATO Institute
https://www.cato.org/publications/cl...costs-benefits

“THE PERFECT STORM: CLIMATE-INDUCED MIGRATIONTO THE UNITED STATES” ~ by Katelin M. Wright
https://www.hsdl.org/?view&did=847117


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