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-   -   How to Judge Pandemic Policies (https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f168/how-to-judge-pandemic-policies-247760.html)

valhalla360 26-03-2021 08:22

Re: How to Judge Pandemic Policies
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Group9 (Post 3373646)
I was looking at some numbers last night, and maybe my math is wrong, but here is what I found as some interesting statistics.

The CDC says they have administered 126,000,000 doses of Covid vaccine, with 2216 related deaths, for a percentage of about .0018, for getting the vaccine and dying from it. Not bad odds, I will admit.

On the other hand, in my county of 52,000 people, we have had 84 Covid related deaths (as reported to the CDC), for a percentage of about .0016, as a chance of anybody in our county getting Covid and dying from it. Also, not bad odds.

But,.....

Now, are my calculations wrong, or do I have a better chance of taking the vaccine and dying from it than I have so far had of dying from Covid, in my county, just based on the numbers?

Feel free to check my math. Maybe, I missed a decimal point.

Can you provide a link to the data?

This is news if it's killing that many. More likely, if you get the full definition, it doesn't say what you imply it does.

valhalla360 26-03-2021 08:28

Re: How to Judge Pandemic Policies
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect (Post 3373664)
That's spin.

...and hindsight. It's insane that this one message is viewed as trigger for mistrust when most of an entire political party was actively downplaying the pandemic and disparaging the mitigation efforts. THAT - toxic partisanship - is the real source of confusion and distrust. Handwaving about "lying" while ignoring the partisan investment in downplaying the pandemic is just more of the same campaign.
.

It's spin that hospitals have used masks for decades to stop the spread of disease? Who exactly didn't know that a year ago?

It's not one message. They've kept doing it.
- First it was masks do nothing.
- Herd immunity was 60% but then they admitted, they set a lower public number.

Sure there was partisanship involved on all sides. If you want to overcome partisanship distrust, are you absolutely honest giving straight answers or do you repeatedly lie to the other side but expect them to miraculously come over to your side?

Group9 26-03-2021 08:39

Re: How to Judge Pandemic Policies
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by valhalla360 (Post 3373713)
Can you provide a link to the data?

This is news if it's killing that many. More likely, if you get the full definition, it doesn't say what you imply it does.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019...se-events.html

"126 million doses of COVID-19 vaccines were administered in the United States from December 14, 2020, through March 22, 2021. During this time, VAERS received 2,216 reports of death (0.0018%) among people who received a COVID-19 vaccine. CDC and FDA physicians review each case report of death as soon as notified and CDC requests medical records to further assess reports. A review of available clinical information including death certificates, autopsy, and medical records revealed no evidence that vaccination contributed to patient deaths. CDC and FDA will continue to investigate reports of adverse events, including deaths, reported to VAERS."

Now, I will admit, the CDC says, that despite having received these reports form medical doctors and hospitals all over the country, they decided on their own, that every single one of these reports was wrong.
Every single one. I think they would have a little more credibility, if they had admitted to a couple. People die from adverse vaccine reactions all the time. I admit, it's rare, but it happens. But, apparently not with vaccines that are rushed though with special non-liability rules for the manufacturers. Those are 100 per cent safe.

And, I realize, boy, do I realize, how hard it is to have a conversation about this stuff. My job, for a long time, involved figuring things out, that people really didn't want figured out. I just can't help myself. I ask questions. Even questions that are not appreciated or even allowed in some circles. Even retired. :biggrin:

These are probably all wrong, too.
https://legemiddelverket.no/english/...id-19-vaccines

Group9 26-03-2021 08:47

Re: How to Judge Pandemic Policies
 
And, to possibley explain why I am probably like this, especially when it comes to vaccines.

I'm 63 and I have taken a flu shot exactly one time in my life. And, this is the time.

https://www.history.com/news/swine-f...tion-year-1976

And, ironically, if I have ever contracted the flu, in all my years, I didn't know it.

valhalla360 26-03-2021 09:00

Re: How to Judge Pandemic Policies
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Group9 (Post 3373739)
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019...se-events.html

"126 million doses of COVID-19 vaccines were administered in the United States from December 14, 2020, through March 22, 2021. During this time, VAERS received 2,216 reports of death (0.0018%) among people who received a COVID-19 vaccine. CDC and FDA physicians review each case report of death as soon as notified and CDC requests medical records to further assess reports. A review of available clinical information including death certificates, autopsy, and medical records revealed no evidence that vaccination contributed to patient deaths. CDC and FDA will continue to investigate reports of adverse events, including deaths, reported to VAERS."

Now, I will admit, the CDC says, that despite having received these reports form medical doctors and hospitals all over the country, they decided on their own, that every single one of these reports was wrong.
Every single one. I think they would have a little more credibility, if they had admitted to a couple. People die from adverse vaccine reactions all the time. I admit, it's rare, but it happens. But, apparently not with vaccines that are rushed though with special non-liability rules for the manufacturers. Those are 100 per cent safe.

And, I realize, boy, do I realize, how hard it is to have a conversation about this stuff. My job, for a long time, involved figuring things out, that people really didn't want figured out. I just can't help myself. I ask questions. Even questions that are not appreciated or even allowed in some circles. Even retired. :biggrin:

These are probably all wrong, too.
https://legemiddelverket.no/english/...id-19-vaccines

All this is doing is if you die shortly after getting the vaccine, the local doctors must submit a report and the CDC will investigate to see if the vaccine is somehow related.

It is not suggesting in any way that these people died from the vaccine.

The CDC isn't saying the reports were "wrong". They are saying the reports do not indicate the vaccines were the cause of death or significantly contributed to it.

Ie: if you walk out of the vaccination center, cross the street and get run down by a semi, a report will be generated and submitted to the CDC. But when compiling the data, it will not be counted as death due to vaccine.

Not particularly surprising about adverse reactions. They have implemented a waiting period early on after vaccination, so if there is a reaction, medical staff is immediately available to treat it. So yes, there adverse reactions but little risk of death.

Group9 26-03-2021 09:02

Re: How to Judge Pandemic Policies
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by valhalla360 (Post 3373776)
All this is doing is if you die shortly after getting the vaccine, the local doctors must submit a report and the CDC will investigate to see if the vaccine is somehow related.

It is not suggesting in any way that these people died from the vaccine.

The CDC isn't saying the reports were "wrong". They are saying the reports do not indicate the vaccines were the cause of death or significantly contributed to it.

Ie: if you walk out of the vaccination center, cross the street and get run down by a semi, a report will be generated and submitted to the CDC. But when compiling the data, it will not be counted as death due to vaccine.

Not particularly surprising about adverse reactions. They have implemented a waiting period early on after vaccination, so if there is a reaction, medical staff is immediately available to treat it. So yes, there adverse reactions but little risk of death.

I do understand the alternative view. It just doesn't make walking around sense to me.

valhalla360 26-03-2021 09:19

Re: How to Judge Pandemic Policies
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Group9 (Post 3373779)
I do understand the alternative view. It just doesn't make walking around sense to me.

It's simple.

They want to know about any death that occurs in close proximity to vaccination, so they don't miss potential vaccine related deaths when compiling the data. So far they haven't found any that tie to the vaccine.

Other than the microchips with remote activated poison vials, there's nothing particularly dangerous in the vaccines, so not really surprising.

Group9 26-03-2021 10:07

Re: How to Judge Pandemic Policies
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by valhalla360 (Post 3373813)
It's simple.

They want to know about any death that occurs in close proximity to vaccination, so they don't miss potential vaccine related deaths when compiling the data. So far they haven't found any that tie to the vaccine.

Other than the microchips with remote activated poison vials, there's nothing particularly dangerous in the vaccines, so not really surprising.

Then why do you think the Covid vaccine manufacturers needed special limited liability, above the normal limited liability they have been afforded since 1988?

And, yes, I get the microchip reference, because anyone with any questions, or who doesn't believe everything they hear, is a nut. Is that really the way you want this to go and the argument you want to use?

valhalla360 26-03-2021 10:15

Re: How to Judge Pandemic Policies
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Group9 (Post 3373872)
Then why do you think the Covid vaccine manufacturers needed special limited liability, above the normal limited liability they have been afforded since 1988?

And, yes, I get the microchip reference, because anyone with any questions, or who doesn't believe everything they hear, is a nut. Is that really the way you want this to go and the argument you want to use?

Simple, our legal system if F'd Up.

I once did an independent review of a lawsuit for a state DOT. The guy was 3 times the legal limit, passed out and ran off the road. He crawled up to a house asking for help. He was so out of it, he didn't know if anyone else was in the car.

I could find no design flaws in the roadway but the lawyers said pay him off because the cost of defending it was going to several times what it would pay him off.

A few years later, they changed the law regarding sovereign immunity to end these silly cases.

Same basic scenario here but with the entire population vaccinated and you have the impression that would be easy to push that things were rushed out the door, you could expect massive class action lawsuits from all directions regardless of if there is anything to support them. You could also expect juries to be in over their heads understanding how the timelines could be compressed without creating any significant risk. Without the immunity, companies would have walked away from the govt funding because the lawsuits would have cost them more.

PS: Having questions is fine. I can even buy not wanting to be the first in line. Misconstruing the information leads into the microchip discussion.

boatman61 26-03-2021 10:24

Re: How to Judge Pandemic Policies
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by valhalla360 (Post 3373886)
Simple, our legal system if F'd Up.

I once did an independent review of a lawsuit for a state DOT. The guy was 3 times the legal limit, passed out and ran off the road. He crawled up to a house asking for help. He was so out of it, he didn't know if anyone else was in the car.

I could find no design flaws in the roadway but the lawyers said pay him off because the cost of defending it was going to several times what it would pay him off.

A few years later, they changed the law regarding sovereign immunity to end these silly cases.

Same basic scenario here but with the entire population vaccinated and you have the impression that would be easy to push that things were rushed out the door, you could expect massive class action lawsuits from all directions regardless of if there is anything to support them. You could also expect juries to be in over their heads understanding how the timelines could be compressed without creating any significant risk. Without the immunity, companies would have walked away from the govt funding because the lawsuits would have cost them more.

PS: Having questions is fine. I can even buy not wanting to be the first in line. Misconstruing the information leads into the microchip discussion.

Your living in the past Vallhala...
Nanotechnology is the new way.. :wink:

Dockhead 26-03-2021 11:34

Re: How to Judge Pandemic Policies
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Group9 (Post 3373739)
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019...se-events.html

"126 million doses of COVID-19 vaccines were administered in the United States from December 14, 2020, through March 22, 2021. During this time, VAERS received 2,216 reports of death (0.0018%) among people who received a COVID-19 vaccine. CDC and FDA physicians review each case report of death as soon as notified and CDC requests medical records to further assess reports. A review of available clinical information including death certificates, autopsy, and medical records revealed no evidence that vaccination contributed to patient deaths. CDC and FDA will continue to investigate reports of adverse events, including deaths, reported to VAERS."

Now, I will admit, the CDC says, that despite having received these reports form medical doctors and hospitals all over the country, they decided on their own, that every single one of these reports was wrong.
Every single one. I think they would have a little more credibility, if they had admitted to a couple. People die from adverse vaccine reactions all the time. I admit, it's rare, but it happens. But, apparently not with vaccines that are rushed though with special non-liability rules for the manufacturers. Those are 100 per cent safe.

And, I realize, boy, do I realize, how hard it is to have a conversation about this stuff. My job, for a long time, involved figuring things out, that people really didn't want figured out. I just can't help myself. I ask questions. Even questions that are not appreciated or even allowed in some circles. Even retired. :biggrin:

These are probably all wrong, too.
https://legemiddelverket.no/english/...id-19-vaccines

Where did you get that CDC said any of those reports were "wrong"? They did not. The reports were not of deaths CAUSED by vaccination, but deaths which coincided with vaccination. CDC merely said that there was no evidence in any of the cases that any of the deaths were caused by vaccination.

And put the numbers into perspective --

Average age of people getting vaccinations is -- what? 70? At least?

At 70 your chance of dying on any given day is 0.0063%. https://www.ssa.gov/oact/STATS/table4c6.html. Over any given week -- 0.044%. So 0.0018% of people dead within a week or even within a day of receiving the vaccine is less by 3x than the number of people who would die anyway on that very day, with or without a vaccine, and less by 21x than people who would die anyway during the following week, with or without a vaccine.

So this 0.0018% is big bunch of nothing. Even if ALL of the deaths were CAUSED by the vaccine (and there is no evidence that they were), the number is trivial.

Group9 26-03-2021 11:37

Re: How to Judge Pandemic Policies
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by valhalla360 (Post 3373886)
Simple, our legal system if F'd Up.

I once did an independent review of a lawsuit for a state DOT. The guy was 3 times the legal limit, passed out and ran off the road. He crawled up to a house asking for help. He was so out of it, he didn't know if anyone else was in the car.

I could find no design flaws in the roadway but the lawyers said pay him off because the cost of defending it was going to several times what it would pay him off.

A few years later, they changed the law regarding sovereign immunity to end these silly cases.

Same basic scenario here but with the entire population vaccinated and you have the impression that would be easy to push that things were rushed out the door, you could expect massive class action lawsuits from all directions regardless of if there is anything to support them. You could also expect juries to be in over their heads understanding how the timelines could be compressed without creating any significant risk. Without the immunity, companies would have walked away from the govt funding because the lawsuits would have cost them more.

PS: Having questions is fine. I can even buy not wanting to be the first in line. Misconstruing the information leads into the microchip discussion.

Whatever, I think we all got the point you were trying to make with the "microchip/poison" comment. It's okay. I have a thick skin.

Here is another one that the CDC will find not to be vaccine related. Yesterday, a woman collapsed minutes after getting the Covid shot, still at the place she got the shot at, and then died after they transported her to the hospital.

I'm sure it will be found to be a mere coincidence by the CDC to keep that 100 per cent safety record going.

Anyone want to take that bet?

https://www.wlox.com/2021/03/25/kan-...ccine-related/

ATCHISON CO., Kan. (WIBW) - The death of an Atchison Co. woman is under investigation as possibly being vaccine-related.
The Kansas Department of Health and Environment said it would be premature to say that her cause of death was the COVID-19 vaccine.
The KDHE says it became aware on Thursday morning of the death of 68-year-old Jeanie Evans. It said she was vaccinated in Jefferson County and according to the local health department, appropriate CDC guidelines were followed.
According to the KDHE, during the waiting period after Evans received the vaccine, she began to experience anaphylaxis and medical treatment was given. It said she was then taken to a local hospital where she later died. KDHE said in a news release that the death will be fully investigated in accordance with standard protocol.
The KDHE said until the investigation is complete, the assignment of a specific cause of Evans’ death is premature.
According to the KDHE, the health department entered the death into the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System, VAERS, which is a national vaccine surveillance program run by the CDC and FDA. VAERS tracks adverse events reported from all types of vaccines and vaccine manufacturers.
The KDHE said anytime a death or adverse event happens after vaccinations, the case is required to be reported to VAERS. It said the process allows the agencies to monitor adverse events that could be related to vaccinations. As is standard protocol, it said the death will be fully reviewed.

DumnMad 26-03-2021 12:12

Re: How to Judge Pandemic Policies
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by boatman61 (Post 3373546)
The Pandemic Policy has been pretty simple really..
Induce irrational fear into people over a relatively mild desease..

To date after more than one year the Global Death rate stands at 2.7 million..
World population stands at 7.7 billion making the claimed viciousness of Covid-19 a joke..
With the Global birth rate standing at 19 per 1000 its barely a scratch on the future population.
Meanwhile frightened people clamor for conformity for 'the greater good' causing division, hatred and even violence on non-conformists..
So it seems, whatever the real reason behind this Campaign the prognosis to date is.. with the resistance being shown.. just 50/50.
Lets see what another year's brings.

Not really a mild disease but:
During 2020 many more died of heart disease in US than Covids.
Heart disease is rare in countries where they don't have supermarkets.
For some reason they haven't put the clamps on supermarkets ????
The conspiracy theories are;
The US FDA is controlled by big business.
Pharma and the medical profession are the big profiteers from pain and suffering.

valhalla360 26-03-2021 12:32

Re: How to Judge Pandemic Policies
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Group9 (Post 3373957)
Here is another one that the CDC will find not to be vaccine related. Yesterday, a woman collapsed minutes after getting the Covid shot, still at the place she got the shot at, and then died after they transported her to the hospital.

I'm sure it will be found to be a mere coincidence by the CDC to keep that 100 per cent safety record going.

Anyone want to take that bet?

https://www.wlox.com/2021/03/25/kan-...ccine-related/

ATCHISON CO., Kan. (WIBW) - The death of an Atchison Co. woman is under investigation as possibly being vaccine-related.
The Kansas Department of Health and Environment said it would be premature to say that her cause of death was the COVID-19 vaccine.
The KDHE says it became aware on Thursday morning of the death of 68-year-old Jeanie Evans. It said she was vaccinated in Jefferson County and according to the local health department, appropriate CDC guidelines were followed.
According to the KDHE, during the waiting period after Evans received the vaccine, she began to experience anaphylaxis and medical treatment was given. It said she was then taken to a local hospital where she later died. KDHE said in a news release that the death will be fully investigated in accordance with standard protocol.
The KDHE said until the investigation is complete, the assignment of a specific cause of Evansí death is premature.
According to the KDHE, the health department entered the death into the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System, VAERS, which is a national vaccine surveillance program run by the CDC and FDA. VAERS tracks adverse events reported from all types of vaccines and vaccine manufacturers.
The KDHE said anytime a death or adverse event happens after vaccinations, the case is required to be reported to VAERS. It said the process allows the agencies to monitor adverse events that could be related to vaccinations. As is standard protocol, it said the death will be fully reviewed.

Give me the full report on the event before I lay down my bets. As mentioned in the article, it's premature to assess without all the information.

Anaphylaxis is a common reaction but typically with medical attention immediately available (that's why they make you wait around 15-20min), it's not a serious risk. Could a case have slipped thru with slow reaction by staff? Maybe but let's see what facts are first.

AK_sailor 26-03-2021 12:43

Re: How to Judge Pandemic Policies
 
An interesting article on possible future scenarios for covid19:
COVID-19 Is Different Now


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