Cruisers & Sailing Forums (https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/)
-   Engines and Propulsion Systems (https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f54/)
-   -   Dropped a straw in my gearbox!!!! (https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f54/dropped-a-straw-in-my-gearbox-233960.html)

Scubaseas 09-05-2020 08:51

Re: Dropped a straw in my gearbox!!!!
 
endoscope taped to mechanical grabber tool. Prayer may help too

Ahneema 09-05-2020 09:08

Re: Dropped a straw in my gearbox!!!!
 
I just checked Walmart has an endoscope with grabber tool for $39. I took a screenshot on my iPad but don’t know how to post the picture.

taxwizz 09-05-2020 09:42

Re: Dropped a straw in my gearbox!!!!
 
What about poking aound with a fuzzy pipe cleaner hoping to get it down the straw hole?

Admittedly a long shot.

Ahneema 09-05-2020 09:54

Re: Dropped a straw in my gearbox!!!!
 
Desperate times...means desperate measures!

noelex 77 09-05-2020 10:09

Re: Dropped a straw in my gearbox!!!!
 
The endoscope/mechanical fingers should be the best solution, but here a couple of other ideas:

The vacuum oil extractors can develop a reasonable amount of suction that will grab light objects. Fishing around with one of these may stick to the object well enough that it can be extracted. Try experimenting with different sized extraction tubes.

One advantage is that there is nothing that can harm the gearbox or become trapped as you poke around. If you suck up oil it can always be replaced. It may actually help (particularly with the endoscope) to suck out all the oil so you can see better. On the other hand, temporarily filling the gearbox completely with oil may help float the object to the top.

Capn Jimbo 09-05-2020 10:41

Re: Dropped a straw in my gearbox!!!!
 
I agree with the gentleman who noted that the vacuum hose is too large to insert, and thus may not create enough suction to pull the hose, but I suggest two things:


1. The side plate is off so this might allow more airflow or but could just as well might not.


2. You could duct tape another small hose like the one you're trying to remove to the vacumn hose. This could now be inserted and you can fish around to grab and remove the lost tube.


I'd try this with and without the plate off (or taped closed) and also through the side plate. I'll bet this can work. Please advise...

AKA-None 09-05-2020 10:47

Re: Dropped a straw in my gearbox!!!!
 
Ok let’s stop with the straw bit. It isn’t a straw in the normal sense of the word it’s a plastic tube. Much thicker and less likely to be simply ground up. So think mostly rigid plastic tube would you leave it? Personally no

DefinitelyMe 09-05-2020 10:51

Re: Dropped a straw in my gearbox!!!!
 
1 Attachment(s)
I used to have a little gadget for getting pickled onions out of the jar. This one is acquiring a gherkin, but you get the idea...... What are the chances you could find one in Antigua though....?

Attachment 214697

jmschmidt 09-05-2020 11:48

Re: Dropped a straw in my gearbox!!!!
 
Looks like you misinterpreted Kokanee's suggestion. After draining the oil you need to create air flow through the gear box by leaving the drain plug open at the bottom and applying a vacuum to the filler port or, if that doesn't work, try vacuuming from the drain port with filler port open. A vacuum can't work against itself. Shine a light into the drain port and peek into the filler-port to see if you can locate the straw. If that doesn't work prepare to field-strip your tranny.

Capn Jimbo 09-05-2020 11:51

Re: Dropped a straw in my gearbox!!!!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DefinitelyMe (Post 3135788)
I used to have a little gadget for getting pickled onions out of the jar. This one is acquiring a gherkin, but you get the idea...... What are the chances you could find one in Antigua though....?

Attachment 214697


Excellent. BTW I once bought a similar tool to fish the hydraulic lifters out of my 1983 Dodge Ram slant six engine. It also had a flexible wire tube - good for this - and was available at my auto parts store.


https://www.oreillyauto.com/detail/b...14510d/4772686

mvweebles 09-05-2020 11:59

Re: Dropped a straw in my gearbox!!!!
 
Way back in one of the early OP posts, he included a picture of side panel on the tranny with two hoses, presumably going to an oil cooler. This panel looks very accessible. Does anyone know what's on the inside and what the mechanism behind it is? I've never been inside a tranny - my fear would be some sort of precision or pressed fit mechanism behind the plate that is impossible for a mere mortal to reinstall with some sort of special tool.

Does anyone have a clue if this plate/housing can be easily removed, and if it might provide access to the sump of the tyranny?

Call it fear of unknown, but I personally would not be comfortable traveling any distance with a foreign object in there.

Peter

mvweebles 09-05-2020 12:01

Re: Dropped a straw in my gearbox!!!!
 
1 Attachment(s)
OP picture from post #2. What's behind the housing circled in red? Attachment 214699

kmacdonald 09-05-2020 12:47

Re: Dropped a straw in my gearbox!!!!
 
Sell the boat and let the new owner worry about it.

Swift Drift 09-05-2020 12:55

Re: Dropped a straw in my gearbox!!!!
 
I just sourced an endoscope camera and some “mechanical fingers.” Going to see if I can get it out without tearing it out. We’ll see.

Swift Drift 09-05-2020 12:56

Re: Dropped a straw in my gearbox!!!!
 
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by mvweebles (Post 3135827)
OP picture from post #2. What's behind the housing circled in red? Attachment 214699



I’ve already removed it and it doesn’t really provide a solution. We’ll see if my new tools reference above can perform a miracle.

Attachment 214705

jamhass 09-05-2020 13:19

Re: Dropped a straw in my gearbox!!!!
 
While you have the side cover off, check the oil cooler for corrosion, since it is now where you can inspect it.

potbellypirate 09-05-2020 14:08

Re: Dropped a straw in my gearbox!!!!
 
Hi Swifty, Harbor Freight has a relatively new item that may help your situation. Very long pair of needle nose pliers with extra joints allowing them to stay narrow. Length is approx. 16".
Also if you can apply air pressure to gearbox while vacuming it could greatly increase air flow. I would think the seals could handle at least 20 lbs. or so.
Also mechanics often put zip lock baggies containing proper amount of gear oil inside differential covers as an easy way to fill in hard to reach filler conditions. Plastic of ziplock baggies eventually become part of oil,
however auto differentials are beefier than transmissions and I don't know if they use the method in more complex differentials containing clutches etc. [Posi- Trak etc.]
I once dropped a nut bolting torque converter to flywheel into the bellhousing while installing transmission in my Ford Explorer. [Nightmare project]. Working thru starter hole as that is only way to access these nuts was hours long attempt trying to retrieve nut using wires magnets etc. The problem was the flywheel end ring dear almost totally blocking access into rest of bell housing. I didn't want to remove transmission to access bell housing as I had returned rented transmission jack, and also removing transmission is horrible project without automobile lift.
I couldn't rest easy knowing the nut could possibly bounce into ring gear and starter gear causing problems. My solution was to drill access hole thru bell housing using 1" hole saw to cut hole near bottom forward of flywheel to access that area. I still couldn't find the nut with much probing around torque converter and flywheel. Mystified, I replaced the starter and ran the engine which rattled the nut down to the hole area
allowing me to retrieve it. I don't know why Ford has studs on torque converters making it harder to install transmission. Chevy uses bolts making the process much easier. That's my 2 cents worth. I hope some of this will help your situation. Potbellypirate

Montanan 09-05-2020 14:35

Re: Dropped a straw in my gearbox!!!!
 
1 Attachment(s)
It is always a . . . . [fill in blank] when that happens. :facepalm:

For future reference.

I recommend the use of a large twisty straw the next time you use your drain kit, such twisty straws don't tend to be able to fall far into a small diameter hole as only the straight thin long end is inserted and the important [read communicative] bit remains outside. There be many shapes to chose from, the one depicted below can be take reference to the blank denoted above, perhaps. :whistling: I believe there are Bastard shaped straws as well.

billgewater 09-05-2020 19:53

Re: Dropped a straw in my gearbox!!!!
 
Does this gearbox have any form of a filter on its transmission oil pump? Maybe a gearbox specialist can advise. I only ask because a filter would seem to be mandatory in case any rubbish such as bits off a gasket or rubber seal gets loose. Considering the very high oil pressures in some gearboxes (mine is at 220 psi) it would seem that the plastic should be ground down to fine bits. However a large lump of plastic in a fine oil line or needle bearing could still be disastrous. Yes. Contact a specialist.

Wotname 09-05-2020 20:57

Re: Dropped a straw in my gearbox!!!!
 
Interesting thread and I'm sorry that I can't offer any better advice than that which has already been posted.

You could possibly try pure water as the straw would technically float especially if it has some oil still in it. Pure water shouldn't damage the gearbox in any way as it can be removed with ethyl alcohol.

It did get me thinking about what liquids have a specific gravity of greater than say 1 so that the straw could be more easily floated out or at least floated up to the top.

Turns out that while there are a few, most won't be great in the gearbox and all are difficult to obtain.

A few of the stand out ones are:

Chloroform sg 1.47
Carbon tetrachloride sg 1.59
Bromine sg 3.12

I guess buying 2 litres of chloroform might raise some eyebrows but I understand it can made at home (DIY).

Swift Drift 10-05-2020 04:23

Re: Dropped a straw in my gearbox!!!!
 
1 Attachment(s)
Hallelujah the foreign contaminant has been removed! It took several hours of hunting and trying different methods. I’m shocked it actually happened....I feel like I won the lottery.

Ultimately what lead to success was:

1) Taped the small pick up hose from my large oil extraction pump (hose I usually send down dipstick tubes) to an endoscope camera and fed it down the gearbox fill hole. This allowed me to remove the very small puddle of ATF that was remaining at the bottom. This was hiding the straw from view.

2) Taped my “grabber tool” alongside endoscope which not only allowed me to see where I was going with my grabber, but also provided better/stiffer structure to endoscope as opposed to a floppy camera cable. This set up is invaluable!!!!!!

3) The foreign containment was initially spotted (just barely) via the gearbox fill hole on port side. I couldn’t get a very good view or access from this angle.

4) Extraction was via the cover plate/tranny cooler area on starboard side. I was barely able to access a small portion of the straw with the grabber/endoscope combo tool. It was tense as I was worried it may come loose and/or be jostled to a worse location.

What a relief! Unfortunately I won’t be able to answer the question: “Will a polyethylene tube stuck in a a KBW20 gearbox cause damage?”

Thanks for everyone’s insight....very much appreciated.


Attachment 214723

mvweebles 10-05-2020 04:30

Re: Dropped a straw in my gearbox!!!!
 
Whew!!!! Great news. Congrats - thanks for sharing your predicament.

Fair winds

Peter

sailormed 10-05-2020 04:45

Re: Dropped a straw in my gearbox!!!!
 
:trash: :trash: :trash::thumb:

SaylorMade 10-05-2020 05:04

Re: Dropped a straw in my gearbox!!!!
 
I needed this ! Haven't slept all night :flowers:

jimbunyard 10-05-2020 05:22

Re: Dropped a straw in my gearbox!!!!
 
Though I don't expect many to understand this, that you got it out pretty much answers the question. A straw that size in that transmission won't cause damage.

It's a moot point however. Glad you got it out (without tearing everything apart), for everyone's, but more importantly, your, peace of mind.

If you have a bit of time, here's a similar, perhaps somewhat more amusing thread along the same lines.

https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...ke-186189.html

ggray 10-05-2020 05:27

Re: Dropped a straw in my gearbox!!!!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Swift Drift (Post 3136172)
Hallelujah the foreign contaminant has been removed! It took several hours of hunting and trying different methods. I’m shocked it actually happened....I feel like I won the lottery.
<snip>

What a relief! Unfortunately I won’t be able to answer the question: “Will a polyethylene tube stuck in a a KBW20 gearbox cause damage?”

Thanks for everyone’s insight....very much appreciated.
Attachment 214723

Congratulations!

I'm late to this discussion, but want to comment on whether the tube would cause damage if not removed.

Seemed to be a minority opinion that the tube could be drawn into the gears, but I think it certainly could (unless it was of sufficient length to lodge itself in an out of the way position).

Think of an old-fashion washing machine wringer. That's where the phrase "t____ caught in the wringer" came from. On one side the gears could pull objects inward.

If that didn't damage anything, certainly the ground up particles could damage bearings as someone mentioned.

But the main point --perhaps an old mechanics tale-- that I want to throw out for consideration or debunking is something that mechanics I knew claimed.

They always said to be very sparing with using RTV sealing around gear boxes as any excess sealant chunks that might come loose would cause damage to the gears and bearings.

I don't know if that's true. I never tested it!

Rod B 10-05-2020 05:39

Re: Dropped a straw in my gearbox!!!!
 
They always said to be very sparing with using RTV sealing around gear boxes as any excess sealant chunks that might come loose would cause damage to the gears and bearings.

This is true, I once bought a small Honda motorcycle cheap because the engine wasn't running. A previous owner had used excessive amounts of RTV on all the cover plates with had plugged oil ways. Beware.

gonesail 10-05-2020 05:41

Re: Dropped a straw in my gearbox!!!!
 
congrats .. great solution to a big problem :thumb:

jimbunyard 10-05-2020 05:44

Re: Dropped a straw in my gearbox!!!!
 
I feel an exposition on this subject coming on, but, fortunately or not, I'm pretty busy at this time so it's going to have to wait...

wsmurdoch 10-05-2020 06:08

Re: Dropped a straw in my gearbox!!!!
 
1 Attachment(s)
Be careful putting the cover back on. Its exact position matters. This is a page from the manual for the similar KBW10.

kmacdonald 10-05-2020 06:11

Re: Dropped a straw in my gearbox!!!!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SaylorMade (Post 3136189)
I needed this ! Haven't slept all night :flowers:

Neither of us did.:wink:

hpeer 10-05-2020 06:24

Re: Dropped a straw in my gearbox!!!!
 
Very good. You deserve a couple of drinks for that one.

Now the question is.....what did you do to cause the Situation in the first place and what should I do to not repeat it on my boat?

a64pilot 10-05-2020 06:48

Re: Dropped a straw in my gearbox!!!!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by hpeer (Post 3136237)
Very good. You deserve a couple of drinks for that one.

Now the question is.....what did you do to cause the Situation in the first place and what should I do to not repeat it on my boat?


Don’t use the gear oil pump for the outboard to suck the ATF out of your transmission, use your oil change vacuum pump instead.
I cringed when I heard about it, cause I could see myself doing the exact same thing.
If you choose to use the gear oil pump, get a straw long enough so it can’t fall it if it comes loose.
People who stick the tanks on an airplane often make the same mistake and drop the stick into the tank, a longer stick you can’t drop into the tank.


Glad you got it out, good thinking with attaching the two tools together

Swift Drift 10-05-2020 08:22

Re: Dropped a straw in my gearbox!!!!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by wsmurdoch (Post 3136223)
Be careful putting the cover back on. Its exact position matters. This is a page from the manual for the similar KBW10.



Thank you!

Swift Drift 10-05-2020 08:23

Re: Dropped a straw in my gearbox!!!!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by a64pilot (Post 3136255)
Don’t use the gear oil pump for the outboard to suck the ATF out of your transmission, use your oil change vacuum pump instead.
I cringed when I heard about it, cause I could see myself doing the exact same thing.
If you choose to use the gear oil pump, get a straw long enough so it can’t fall it if it comes loose.
People who stick the tanks on an airplane often make the same mistake and drop the stick into the tank, a longer stick you can’t drop into the tank.


Glad you got it out, good thinking with attaching the two tools together



What A64pilot said is the ticket!

Boatwright 10-05-2020 09:16

Re: Dropped a straw in my gearbox!!!!
 
I like the idea of stabbing it with a straightened fish-hook. Be careful when you make the tool - don't lose the fish-hook too.....

My ideas:

1) Make a noose out of fine copper wire projecting out of the end of a small tube long enough to reach into the filler hole. Lasso the straw, draw the noose tight by pulling the wire from the outside end, and bring the lost tube up to the filler hole. Maneuver the lost tube to where you can grab it with needle nose pliers.

2) For all suggestions, get a hemostat. I have bent the shafts of SS hemostats inward to narrow the clearance required to open and close. You can do this by heating the metal red-hot with a propane torch. SS does not lose lose its temper like regular steel when heated. You may be able to use the hemostat all by itself, or as an aid in maneuvering the straw to the fill hole.

More than one mechanic (me) has placed a rag in the carburetor throat when working on an engine, cranked it over, and sucked the rag through the engine. A bit of valve clatter and she runs fine. I wouldn't however think it wise to grind up a semi-hard plastic tube with your transmission.
Good luck.

Swift Drift 10-05-2020 15:30

Re: Dropped a straw in my gearbox!!!!
 
2 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by jamhass (Post 3135866)
While you have the side cover off, check the oil cooler for corrosion, since it is now where you can inspect it.



Well, during reassembly I snapped off the petcock drain at the bottom of the oil cooler. I was able to extract the remaining section and chase the threads in the cooler with a tap so they are good and clean.
Now I need to make a decision on what to plug the hole with. I’m tempted to use a stainless bolt with some tef-gel or lock-tite on it. But I’m concerned about the whole dissimilar metal scenario.
Am I making a bad decision by going with a stainless bolt? I think the cooler is bronze? Pretty sure the old corroded petcock was brass.

Attachment 214771

Attachment 214772

a64pilot 10-05-2020 15:49

Re: Dropped a straw in my gearbox!!!!
 
Usually they aren’t machine threads, often they are NPT.
If it’s machine threads then I’d use a bolt with tef-gel with the intent of changing it later with something bronze, if it’s NPT, then I believe I’d be tempted to use a PVC plug if you can find one, there is no real pressure there, and brass as a last resort, with the intent of later putting on what’s supposed to be there, surprised if it was brass.
I don’t have a cooler, but there are I believe similar drain pet docks on the heat exchanger and a couple of other places on the engine, one is I believe plastic.

Yanmar May also have used a wierd British thread, but I don’t believe this is really a Yanmar transmission, maybe not.
My 4-JHE uses this weird British thread on its oil galley plugs, I ran into that when installing an oil pressure gauge.

I think the KBW-20 is a Hurth transmission built under license?

mvweebles 10-05-2020 15:50

Re: Dropped a straw in my gearbox!!!!
 
SS bolts are used to secure bronze thru hulls frequently, and salt water is a better conductor than oil. You may eventually have an issue, but will take a long time.

Any idea what material the bolts that secure the cooler in place are made of?

To the forum - if the cooler is bronze, would a brass plug be preferred to stainless?

OP: your heart must have dropped when you heard the Crack of metal breaking. I really admire your tenacity. True cruiser mentality.

Peter

mvweebles 10-05-2020 15:53

Re: Dropped a straw in my gearbox!!!!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by a64pilot (Post 3136689)
Usually they aren’t machine threads, often they are NPT.
If it’s machine threads then I’d use a bolt with tef-gel with the intent of changing it later with something bronze, if it’s NPT, then I believe I’d be tempted to use a PVC plug if you can find one, there is no real pressure there, and brass as a last resort, with the intent of later putting on what’s supposed to be there, surprised if it was brass.

Good point on NPT vs straight thread. Sounds like OP chased with a tap of some sort so maybe he knows. Agree that this may very well be NPT.

Seeks odd to put a pet cock here vs a well protected hollow banjo bolt. But so be it.


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 15:55.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.


ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.