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-   -   New Schengen Visa Rules from Feb 2020 (https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f17/new-schengen-visa-rules-from-feb-2020-a-229059.html)

BlueSlue 14-01-2020 21:56

New Schengen Visa Rules from Feb 2020
 
Schengen Visa Rules are set to change as of February 2020. Apparently it will become easier or at least possible to get a longer stay visa according to this article:

https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/new...-need-to-know/

This bit caught my attention:
Travelers frequently visiting the Schengen Area, who also have a positive visa history, meaning they have lawfully used their previous visas, they have a good economic situation in the country of origin and a genuine intention to leave the territory of the Member States before the expiry of the visa for which they have applied, will be granted with the benefit of getting a multiple-entry visa valid for up to five years.

Will this change make life easier for non-EU cruisers?

valhalla360 14-01-2020 22:47

Re: New Schengen Visa Rules from Feb 2020
 
Below is from the same site. I believe it is referring to applicants from countries that require an advance visa (as opposed to US, Canada, Australia, etc... which get visa on arrival). Normally, for a tourist visit, people from these other countries would get a single entry visa (if approved). If they do business, they could apply for a multiple entry visa (with higher standard for approval), so they can come and go without violating the 90/180 rules. Most 1st world western countries already get a multiple entry visa (in effect if not in name):

5 year multiple-entry Schengen visa
5-year MEV is granted to people that travel a lot to the Schengen Zone, especially for business. This visa permits you to enter 26 countries in Europe as many times as you wish, within five years, as soon as you do not violate the 90/180 days rule.

You will need to show very strong proof that you travel frequently to any of these countries and why you travel. In addition, you will need to show evidence why a visa with a validity of 5 years is necessary for you.

NotEntirelySure 14-01-2020 23:38

Re: New Schengen Visa Rules from Feb 2020
 
Mmmmm, Annoyingly I see nothing in that that is a benefit to most visitors.

BlueSlue 14-01-2020 23:54

Re: New Schengen Visa Rules from Feb 2020
 
Thanks for your reply. It looks like you are correct - it only applies to those who need advance visas. And even with it, the 90/180 rule still applies.

carraiguna 15-01-2020 10:06

Re: New Schengen Visa Rules from Feb 2020
 
May be a dumb question but for clarification ...
If I have dual citizenship US and EU I assume the Schengen rules do not apply. However if I am on a US Flag vessel are there other concerns about buying a boat in say Spain and staying in Mediterranean for an extended time.

slug 15-01-2020 10:17

Re: New Schengen Visa Rules from Feb 2020
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by carraiguna (Post 3056075)
May be a dumb question but for clarification ...
If I have dual citizenship US and EU I assume the Schengen rules do not apply. However if I am on a US Flag vessel are there other concerns about buying a boat in say Spain and staying in Mediterranean for an extended time.

You should ask a specialist ..as far as I know a EU passport holder can not sail a non vat paid boat in the EU.

I believe that If you spend more than half a year in the EU you become a Eu resident ,. Tax

Investigate the Spanish matriculation tax

tarian 15-01-2020 10:19

Re: New Schengen Visa Rules from Feb 2020
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by carraiguna (Post 3056075)
May be a dumb question but for clarification ...
If I have dual citizenship US and EU I assume the Schengen rules do not apply. However if I am on a US Flag vessel are there other concerns about buying a boat in say Spain and staying in Mediterranean for an extended time.

No problems with you passport , and no problems with the boat as long as you can show tax has been paid in the EU country of purchase

Greg K 15-01-2020 10:35

Re: New Schengen Visa Rules from Feb 2020
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by carraiguna (Post 3056075)
May be a dumb question but for clarification ...
If I have dual citizenship US and EU I assume the Schengen rules do not apply. However if I am on a US Flag vessel are there other concerns about buying a boat in say Spain and staying in Mediterranean for an extended time.

To add to Slug's and Tarian's comments, if the boat is over 8 meters and for personal use, and you stay in Spain over 183 days, the boat will be liable for 12% Spanish Matriculation tax. There are a number of conditions that need to be met to be exempt from this tax. Take a look here for more details:
https://www.nauticalegal.com/en/repo...gistered-boats

dcarratt 15-01-2020 10:57

Re: New Schengen Visa Rules from Feb 2020
 
Tax residency in the EU is decided on a country by country basis - it is different for every country. In general, if you live on a boat in one place for 6 months it is very likely to create a tax residency in that country. This could expose you to taxes on worldwide assets in countries which have wealth taxes eg France & Spain.

Many non-EU nationals break their cruises by visiting North Africa or Turkey to meet the 90/180 visa requirements and to avoid tests for "habitual residence".

carraiguna 15-01-2020 11:07

Re: New Schengen Visa Rules from Feb 2020
 
Thank you Greg K, Slug and Tarian for responses that give me much food for thought and some avenues to do further research.
The overall plan is to :
1. purchase a vessel in - say Spain for export (not pay VAT)
2. retire in US early this summer
3. move aboard and sail Spanish coast to France and Italy
4. by September begin journey back towards Portugal for the off season
5. return to US for Thanksgiving / Christmas
6. in Feb back to boat to cruise Med as far east as Greece
7. late summer set up for ARC 2021 to Caribbean

Based on Greg K link provided it seems the Spanish tax (12%) would not apply ?
Still unsure about Slugs comment - EU passport on US flag vessel with tax not paid - may be the biggest issue ?

I welcome any other comments or GOTCHA regarding the plan

Greg K 15-01-2020 11:29

Re: New Schengen Visa Rules from Feb 2020
 
Not sure you can avoid VAT if the boat has been in EU for more than 18 months regardless of who owns it or flag. If you buy an EU national owned boat, most likely VAT will have already been paid. Never heard of refunds or purchasing "for export" ( VAT free) unless you're talking about some kind of purchase arrangement with new EU built boats directly from manufacturer?

slug 15-01-2020 13:36

Re: New Schengen Visa Rules from Feb 2020
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg K (Post 3056158)
Not sure you can avoid VAT if the boat has been in EU for more than 18 months regardless of who owns it or flag. If you buy an EU national owned boat, most likely VAT will have already been paid. Never heard of refunds or purchasing "for export" ( VAT free) unless you're talking about some kind of purchase arrangement with new EU built boats directly from manufacturer?

Best to get professional advice ...but , I think you ....as a non Eu resident ..can buy a used boat ...re flag out of the EU and reclaim vat ....if the boat had previously been registered commercial..charter boat . It was a business

Again..don’t believe me..ask a pro

boatman61 15-01-2020 13:55

Re: New Schengen Visa Rules from Feb 2020
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by slug (Post 3056226)
Best to get professional advice ...but , I think you ....as a non Eu resident ..can buy a used boat ...re flag out of the EU and reclaim vat ....if the boat had previously been registered commercial..charter boat . It was a business

Again..donít believe me..ask a pro

No way Jose..
No VAT Refunds on secondhand goods.
Also.. regarding the Visa.. make sure its not like the American ESTA which is only valid for entry by air, if entering by sea its a different Visa, the B1/2 Visa.

slug 15-01-2020 14:08

Re: New Schengen Visa Rules from Feb 2020
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by boatman61 (Post 3056235)
No way Jose..
No VAT Refunds on secondhand goods.
Also.. regarding the Visa.. make sure its not like the American ESTA which is only valid for entry by air, if entering by sea its a different Visa, the B1/2 Visa.

Well....Iím presently negotiating with a broker in the Netherlands

2012 yacht , Dutch flagged charter boat

Vat refunded if I reflag and export out of Eu

The deal has not yet gone thru...I will post if the VAT reclaim was successful

Franziska 15-01-2020 15:08

Re: New Schengen Visa Rules from Feb 2020
 
Be careful that you get offered and guaranteed a FULL VAT refund.

Second hand goods usually get only a very very small amount refunded, if any.
Quote:

Originally Posted by slug (Post 3056239)
Well....Iím presently negotiating with a broker in the Netherlands

2012 yacht , Dutch flagged charter boat

Vat refunded if I reflag and export out of Eu

The deal has not yet gone thru...I will post if the VAT reclaim was successful


slug 15-01-2020 15:24

Re: New Schengen Visa Rules from Feb 2020
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Franziska (Post 3056281)
Be careful that you get offered and guaranteed a FULL VAT refund.

Second hand goods usually get only a very very small amount refunded, if any.

You might be correct ..

.the brokers proposal and communications indicate a full vat refund ..

To me it sounds too good to be true

The brokerage is one of the biggest in Europe

The yacht was never privately registered...itís a charter boat

I have made an additional inquiry with a VAT specialist

I await the reply

valhalla360 15-01-2020 17:50

Re: New Schengen Visa Rules from Feb 2020
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by carraiguna (Post 3056075)
May be a dumb question but for clarification ...
If I have dual citizenship US and EU I assume the Schengen rules do not apply. However if I am on a US Flag vessel are there other concerns about buying a boat in say Spain and staying in Mediterranean for an extended time.

You need to get your residency defined, likely by a lawyer willing to commit to the status given the full plan. I see multiple conflicting statements that would impact your status. I assume you are currently a resident of the EU as you indicate, you will "retire to" the USA. But then you say you will move back after only a couple months to live on the boat for around 6 months.

Residency not citizenship is what determines if you are eligible for temporary VAT relief.

You can stay longer than 90 out of 180 days as an EU citizen but that would support the idea that you are a resident and have to pay VAT immediately upon purchase (assuming the boat isn't already VAT paid).

boom23 15-01-2020 18:34

Re: New Schengen Visa Rules from Feb 2020
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by carraiguna (Post 3056129)
Thank you Greg K, Slug and Tarian for responses that give me much food for thought and some avenues to do further research.
The overall plan is to :
1. purchase a vessel in - say Spain for export (not pay VAT)
2. retire in US early this summer
3. move aboard and sail Spanish coast to France and Italy
4. by September begin journey back towards Portugal for the off season
5. return to US for Thanksgiving / Christmas
6. in Feb back to boat to cruise Med as far east as Greece
7. late summer set up for ARC 2021 to Caribbean

Based on Greg K link provided it seems the Spanish tax (12%) would not apply ?
Still unsure about Slugs comment - EU passport on US flag vessel with tax not paid - may be the biggest issue ?

I welcome any other comments or GOTCHA regarding the plan

I have similar situation. I'll explain what I know as best as I can. As always, it is best to ask an expert.

The boat and you are two different entities.

If you have an EU passport, you can stay in Europe as long as you want. But, if you stay more than 6 months in one EU country, you'll be considered a resident and may be asked to pay income/property taxes. If you don't stay in any EU country more than 6 months, you remain a resident of the country that you pay taxes.

Your boat (non-EU registered, VAT not paid) can stay in EU for up to 18 months if it is skippered by a non-EU resident (i.e skipper can be an EU citizen). If the boat reaches a non-EU port with 18 months, the 18 month clock gets reset. If not, VAT will be due and payable. If an EU resident skippers the boat, VAT is due and payable.

I hope this helps...

boatman61 15-01-2020 19:18

Re: New Schengen Visa Rules from Feb 2020
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by slug (Post 3056239)
Well....Iím presently negotiating with a broker in the Netherlands

2012 yacht , Dutch flagged charter boat

Vat refunded if I reflag and export out of Eu

The deal has not yet gone thru...I will post if the VAT reclaim was successful

If its a charter boat the VAT will not have been paid on it most likely..
Thats the norm with charter firms like SunSail etc.

boatman61 15-01-2020 19:24

Re: New Schengen Visa Rules from Feb 2020
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Franziska (Post 3056281)
Be careful that you get offered and guaranteed a FULL VAT refund.

Second hand goods usually get only a very very small amount refunded, if any.

I have only ever bought secondhand boats (12) in Europe from the UK to Malta and never had to pay VAT.. nor on a secondhand car or a m'cycle.
Wonder if your being gamed..
Just checked and the VAT charged is on the profit made by the dealer which is not usually on the invoice.
A private sale has no VAT.

Pete7 16-01-2020 04:36

Re: New Schengen Visa Rules from Feb 2020
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by slug (Post 3056284)
I have made an additional inquiry with a VAT specialist

I await the reply

Good plan :thumb:

Probably going to roll like this.

Whoever owns the boat now (not the broker) will have paid and claimed back the VAT on initial purchase as part of a business. It's two entries in their VAT account that cancel each other out.

On sale to an EU resident, buyer pays the total price incl VAT to the business. The business calculates the VAT on the second hand price, at their countries rate and declare it in their VAT account, then pays their Gov tax dept when the business VAT is due, annually or quarterly etc. EU buyer gets a sales receipt which includes VAT and keeps it very safe with copies.

To sell as an export (non EU resident), the vendor business has to account for the lack of VAT on the sale of a business asset (yacht), or risk the tax man coming back at a later date and saying "Oi :frown: pay up" particularly if the asset isn't seen to leave the EU immediately.

Can be done but warrants paying for professional help to check they do it correctly. Shouldn't be a problem finding a VAT accountant to check on your behalf plus the rules about changing to a foreign registration rather than leaving the EU immediately as an export. Likely only a few hundred Euros.

Pete

Dockhead 16-01-2020 04:55

Re: New Schengen Visa Rules from Feb 2020
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by boom23 (Post 3056400)
. . .

Your boat (non-EU registered, VAT not paid) can stay in EU for up to 18 months if it is skippered by a non-EU resident (i.e skipper can be an EU citizen). If the boat reaches a non-EU port with 18 months, the 18 month clock gets reset. If not, VAT will be due and payable. If an EU resident skippers the boat, VAT is due and payable.

I hope this helps...


Not just skippers -- if the boat is being used in any way by EU residents. See the RYA advice on this, which is quite comprehensive.

slug 16-01-2020 05:05

Re: New Schengen Visa Rules from Feb 2020
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pete7 (Post 3056598)
Good plan :thumb:

Probably going to roll like this.

Whoever owns the boat now (not the broker) will have paid and claimed back the VAT on initial purchase as part of a business. It's two entries in their VAT account that cancel each other out.

On sale to an EU resident, buyer pays the total price incl VAT to the business. The business calculates the VAT on the second hand price, at their countries rate and declare it in their VAT account, then pays their Gov tax dept when the business VAT is due, annually or quarterly etc. EU buyer gets a sales receipt which includes VAT and keeps it very safe with copies.

To sell as an export (non EU resident), the vendor business has to account for the lack of VAT on the sale of a business asset (yacht), or risk the tax man coming back at a later date and saying "Oi :frown: pay up" particularly if the asset isn't seen to leave the EU immediately.

Can be done but warrants paying for professional help to check they do it correctly. Shouldn't be a problem finding a VAT accountant to check on your behalf plus the rules about changing to a foreign registration rather than leaving the EU immediately as an export. Likely only a few hundred Euros.

Pete

As I understand...via the broker ... the vat reclaim procedure works like this

I purchase the boat..full price, including vat

I reflag the boat, non Eu

I unroll the Genoa , make speed to the Canaries.

When I check out of the Canaries , next port Caribbean , I file this ....departure from the EU paperwork... with the authorities in the Netherlands.

The paid VAT is then credited to my account

Pete7 16-01-2020 05:14

Re: New Schengen Visa Rules from Feb 2020
 
Yes that should work, might be worth having a Dutch VAT accountant file it for you and be involved in the whole process from the start.

I have done it myself, but it was low value items like diving equipment so no great shakes if it went pear shaped. Actually I claimed the VAT back from the vendor with a 'signed by' customs declaration form showing that it had been exported. The vendor then used the customs declaration to support his VAT account to show how an asset was sold and exported, so no VAT due to the tax man. Took months to get a cheque to send home to then be banked. This was a UK process for low value items to simply the process for the tax man. All they wanted was a certificate supporting the VAT account that was stamped and signed. Might be more tricky with a high value item like a yacht. Customs and Revenue will be on the look out for tax dodges and a yacht an obvious item that draws their attention.

Depending on the timing you could unroll the Genoa and head for England as an option.

Pete

Dockhead 16-01-2020 05:25

Re: New Schengen Visa Rules from Feb 2020
 
Non-Euro cruisers in Europe should also take notice of the ETIAS/EES system which will come into effect perhaps at the end of this year.


From the time this system comes into effect, we will no longer be able to fly under the radar, counting on border guards being too lazy too count up our Schengen days through the stamps on our passports. You will not allowed to enter in the first place without an ETIAS, which is a kind of electronic visa, which registers you into the EES central database. There will no longer be any passport stamps; any Schengen zone border card can see with the click of a mouse exactly how long you've been in the Schengen zone and when.



What this does to the bilateral agreement regimes I have no idea, but if you look at for example the Danish immigration services page there seems to be no more mention of them.



The 5 year visa mentioned in the OP will be no help at all -- that merely gives you the right to be in Schengen 90 out of 180 just like we've always been able to do without any kind of visa.



It seems to that things are going to get a lot tougher. I have a four-year residence permit myself, so this won't affect me, but I am concerned for the rest of you.


Brits should also take notice -- at the moment, the Eurocrats are preparing to apply this system to you as well.

Pete7 16-01-2020 05:57

Re: New Schengen Visa Rules from Feb 2020
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dockhead (Post 3056615)
Brits should also take notice -- at the moment, the Eurocrats are preparing to apply this system to you as well.

Plans of retiring and slowly wandering aimlessly around Europe drinking wine and eating French cheese on crusty bread are slowly diminishing :(

boatman61 16-01-2020 06:25

Re: New Schengen Visa Rules from Feb 2020
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pete7 (Post 3056624)
Plans of retiring and slowly wandering aimlessly around Europe drinking wine and eating French cheese on crusty bread are slowly diminishing :(

Cheer up mate.. the good days will return.. :thumb:

B23iL23 16-01-2020 06:40

Re: New Schengen Visa Rules from Feb 2020
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pete7 (Post 3056624)
Plans of retiring and slowly wandering aimlessly around Europe drinking wine and eating French cheese on crusty bread are slowly diminishing :(

Hey there's always Brighton and the pier. Substitute soggy fish and chips and warm beer. Just close your eyes and you could be anywhere.

Pete7 16-01-2020 06:46

Re: New Schengen Visa Rules from Feb 2020
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by B23iL23 (Post 3056636)
Hey there's always Brighton and the pier. Substitute soggy fish and chips and warm beer. Just close your eyes and you could be anywhere.

Plan B was to go norf, if the Scots haven't declared independence before hand :whistling:


Quote:

Originally Posted by boatman61 (Post 3056633)
Cheer up mate.. the good days will return.. :thumb:

Will the EU let us back in again if we ask nicely :peace:

Dockhead 16-01-2020 06:55

Re: New Schengen Visa Rules from Feb 2020
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pete7 (Post 3056624)
Plans of retiring and slowly wandering aimlessly around Europe drinking wine and eating French cheese on crusty bread are slowly diminishing :(


There's bound to be a deal which will allow that. The Euros have a couple million of their own in the UK whom they don't want subjected to onerous conditions. Have faith.

boom23 16-01-2020 07:47

Re: New Schengen Visa Rules from Feb 2020
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dockhead (Post 3056603)
Not just skippers -- if the boat is being used in any way by EU residents. See the RYA advice on this, which is quite comprehensive.

Dockhead, would you happen to have a link to this info?

Thanks.

boatman61 16-01-2020 08:40

Re: New Schengen Visa Rules from Feb 2020
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pete7 (Post 3056640)
Plan B was to go norf, if the Scots haven't declared independence before hand :whistling:




Will the EU let us back in again if we ask nicely :peace:

If you can't see the Black Hole collapsing in on itself yet your not looking in the right place.. :biggrin:
Oh they'd let us back in in a heartbeat, they're finally realizing they need us more than we need them.

Dockhead 16-01-2020 09:58

Re: New Schengen Visa Rules from Feb 2020
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by boom23 (Post 3056660)
Dockhead, would you happen to have a link to this info?

Thanks.


No, just trawl the RYA Legal section and you'll find this and a lot of other really useful stuff.

boom23 16-01-2020 10:46

Re: New Schengen Visa Rules from Feb 2020
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dockhead (Post 3056729)
No, just trawl the RYA Legal section and you'll find this and a lot of other really useful stuff.

Found it (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...-0fCIRYuWDexmP).

Here's an excerpt:

 the person responsible for the boat is normally resident outside the EU;

 the boat will leave EU waters before it has spent 18 months there;

 it will be used only by the persons responsible for bringing it into the EU and their immediate family who are also resident outside the EU;

 if the person to whom temporary admission relief has been granted wishes to leave the EU temporarily but keep the boat in the EU until their return, they will need to get prior authorisation from Customs and comply with any additional conditions which may be imposed; and

 the boat must not be lent, hired, chartered or sold whilst in the EU;

Rex Delay 16-01-2020 18:00

Re: New Schengen Visa Rules from Feb 2020
 
Thinking of doing the same. Watching.

JeanF73 20-01-2020 10:37

Re: New Schengen Visa Rules from Feb 2020
 
US documented boat in Europe:
Max. 18 months per EU regulation before paying VAT. Reset by landing at any non EU port (keep receipts, proof).
Unsure if previously (previous owner) paid VAT is acceptable; did ask the question on occasion be answer vary depending on person/country.
There is a very little known EU provision for retirees, sabbatical, ... to get extension beyond 18 months.

Non Eu Nationals: Max 90 days over any 180 days period.
In France, get a yearly ďtitre de sťjour ď when in the country.
Make sure to prepare all the required paperwork before leaving the US.
For medical/repatriation look into AXA ~ $1/ day.

CAVOK 20-01-2020 22:53

Re: New Schengen Visa Rules from Feb 2020
 
My case is a non EU citizen, buying a new yacht in France this April. It will be purely private use and will be registered outside in a non EU country from the beginning ie No VAT paid. We will be cruising through the Med for several years then leaving Europe permanently.
My understanding that the yacht is OK for 18 months in the EU but then must leave for a non EU country ie Turkey etc briefly and then the 18 month clock is reset.
For us the 90/180 day rule applies.
My questions are:
1. Is there any way for us to get an exemption to the 90/180 rule by way of longer tourist visas issued by any EU country.
2. I may be eligible for British citizenship which when the dust settles could allow me to stay longer, but as a dual citizen could that invoke the rule regarding EU citizens having to pay VAT on their boats.

Anders 20-01-2020 23:21

Re: New Schengen Visa Rules from Feb 2020
 
A British citizenship will not help you for very long since Britain is leaving the EU.

Hartings 21-01-2020 06:10

Re: New Schengen Visa Rules from Feb 2020
 
If you have UK citizenship then it should benefit you this year. It seems that freedom of movement within the EU will apply for UK citizens at least until the end of 2020 so Schengen restrictions will not apply this year. Nothing is finally determined yet of course.

Rumpi 21-01-2020 06:51

Re: New Schengen Visa Rules from Feb 2020
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by CAVOK (Post 3059765)
My questions are:
1. Is there any way for us to get an exemption to the 90/180 rule by way of longer tourist visas issued by any EU country.
2. I may be eligible for British citizenship which when the dust settles could allow me to stay longer, but as a dual citizen could that invoke the rule regarding EU citizens having to pay VAT on their boats.

1. Any national visa will make you a resident of that country. VAT applies.
2. As a british subject you need proof that you are not a EU resident. Now try to explain to a Med official that will asume that you are a british resident that you are in fact not residing anywhere in the EU. I wish you good luck.


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