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-   -   Jib vs no jib on schooner. (https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f2/jib-vs-no-jib-on-schooner-227734.html)

dustman 13-12-2019 13:21

Jib vs no jib on schooner.
 
I am just pondering the feasibility of going without a jib on a schooner with freestanding masts. How much more overall sail area would I have to carry to make up for the absence of the jib. The idea would be to make single hand sail handling a bit easier with 2 instead of three sails. Does the absence of a jib impact upwind sailing much? This is just contemplation so don't freak out on me please. Also wondering people's opinion on schooners vs ketches, advantages/disadvantages.

psk125 13-12-2019 14:27

Re: Jib vs no jib on schooner.
 
Jibs are generally seen as important contributors to performance. They increase the efficiency of the main they’re in front of by creating essentially a funnel that pushes more air through the slot to leeward of the main, helping it to work better. (see C.A. Markaj on aero/hydrodynamics.) Forestays on most boats also provide a convenient, low-cost (since it’s there anyway) place to add useful sail area. People trying to sail in many low-wind regions want all the sail area they can get.
Since they don’t have a big mast creating turbulence along the luff, jibs are also more efficient per square foot at providing power to move the boat. Traditional boats solved the problem of handling jibs short-handed by by making them self-tacking. Newer self-tacking systems don’t bother with the club that older setups often used. The clubs can be dangerous when someone is on the foredeck. Roller-furlers also help make handling headsails much simpler on boats with few crew.

That said, jibs are not absolutely necessary. Many traditional and modern designs don’t have them. Their prevalence, however, speaks for their simplicity, ease of use, and utility.

Pauls 13-12-2019 14:43

Re: Jib vs no jib on schooner.
 
More sails make a boat easier to handle, not harder. Smaller sails are easier to handle. For a given sail area, breaking it up into more smaller sails makes sail handling easier. Also, without the jib you will need to replace sail area by increasing mast height, which will increase cost and will raise the center of effort of the sails, increasing heeling.

StuM 13-12-2019 19:16

Re: Jib vs no jib on schooner.
 
In addition to previous comments, if the architect designed the sailplan with a jib, you will find it hard to balance the boat without one. It will be difficult to balance CE and CLR (Centre of Effort v Centre of Lateral Resistance).

Michael Pope 14-12-2019 09:36

Re: Jib vs no jib on schooner.
 
If you have free standing masts ( a really good idea with all the high strength fibres we have now) then forget about the jibs except a Storm jib (very small but long on the luff for efficiency) between the masts remoovable for 95% of the time. If you put a forestay up you have to put a backstay and away you go. !!!! Ketch is the way to go but with the area of the sail and height of the aft mast about 85 to 90% of the fore mast . The Foresail will be the primary sail and almost square a huge roach , or Gaff (Sheet?) to limit but not prevent some twist Look hard at wishbone booms they are simpler eliminate vangs and reduce the purchase for the sheets by half . Also can be lowered to the deck and lashed down when not in use. No Boom thrashing arround injuring people at times of PANIC which will inevitably ensue in all our lives
You are headed in the right direction I am certain but take time to look at each solution. For instance I would not use Carbon for the masts "S" glass is almost as strong , Better impact strength is not a conductor and most important has a lower modulus so will bend like a wind Surfer sail if you choose .
You owe me a fortune if you follow all that but just put it on the books for the next guy Michael Pope Ex Engineer , Aerodynamacist , Boatbuilder , BUT NUTS! But enjoying life!

canman 14-12-2019 09:50

Re: Jib vs no jib on schooner.
 
We have a Freedom Pilothouse 39 Schooner with carbon free standing masts. Will hopefully never go back to wires! So one option is to use a removable forestay or a wireless reacher for those times with crew or long runs with little drama. We use a removable bowsprit when racing and can fly two spinnakers as well. Otherwise the two main sails work beautifully alone for 95% of our sailing. Last tip: I’ll be ordering a square top with huge roach to dramatically increase low wind sail area and performance.

Michael Pope 14-12-2019 10:13

Re: Jib vs no jib on schooner.
 
Hello "Can Man" I would appreciate a way to talk with you I am just drawing yet another boat a schooner/ketch . I did not Know your model was ever made I would like to pick your brains for experience if you do not mind!
just do not reply if no time popemichael938@gmail.com Thanks

What the hell in for a dime spend a Dollar!! More Pictures please

Mail unit 319 , 716 Smithe Street , Vancouver B.C. V6Z 1A6
Thanks MP

NSboatman 15-12-2019 14:45

Re: Jib vs no jib on schooner.
 
Check our the design by Nigel Irens called ‘Farfarer’. Amazing boat, has circumnavigated and done a lot of serious offshore work.

Cool design. Schooners without jibs or stays/shrouds are indeed viable.

Michael Pope 16-12-2019 08:21

Re: Jib vs no jib on schooner.
 
Thanks where do i find pics etc of "Fanfarer" will sen you stuff on my 2003
old man's cruiser later if you like " WE ARE ALL STUDENTS AT LIFE FOR THE LIVING" Mike Pope


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