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-   -   Catamaran vs Monohull Crew Safety (https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f48/catamaran-vs-monohull-crew-safety-226982.html)

Tupaia 27-11-2019 02:44

Re: Catamaran vs Monohull Crew Safety
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by double u (Post 3024268)
With a 7 year/38000nm cat- rtw (& 2,3 Mono rtws) to my credit I consider myself to be allowed to write any-& everything about cats...

Interested to know what cat?

jmh2002 27-11-2019 03:02

Re: Catamaran vs Monohull Crew Safety
 
I believe that when @double u says catamaran he is referring to a Wharram, and in this case a 34ft Classic Tangaroa MKI (https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ml#post2143983)

This is a world away from a modern Wharram Tiki design, which in itself is also still very far away from any normal modern 'condomaran'.

mglonnro 27-11-2019 05:31

Re: Catamaran vs Monohull Crew Safety
 
I've Googled some to find opinions relating to the theme and below is one account.

Quote:

One thing I noticed about *passagemaking on a multihull is that I had much more energy than when I go to sea on a monohull. Not being on a heel all the time means it doesn’t take as much physical effort to do simple tasks. Overall, everyone in the crew felt the same. We also dealt with tasks more readily since it didn’t take much effort to get up and deal with things.

Unfortunately, or fortunately, this applied to cooking. We were constantly preparing meals and feasting. No one lost weight as we usually do on a monohull passage, where you sometimes eat minimally since food prep and eating just feel like too much effort at times.
https://www.cruisingworld.com/sailin...-in-catamaran/

Tupaia 27-11-2019 06:34

Re: Catamaran vs Monohull Crew Safety
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by double u (Post 3024037)
“cups and wine glasses will remain where you left them “
absolutely hilarious!!! I watch you going up the Red Sea...
Ours was just a Wharram = not really fast & relatively gentle motion, but there were lots of times when one had to guide the cup to the mouth with both hands.
This “cups & glasses“ argument can only come from somebody inexperienced or lying!

Neither, I bought my first mono in 1983, my first cat in 1992, I have sailed and delivered 40 different multihulls and have lived aboard my own cat for the last fifteen years covering close to 80,000NM. It is not to say that it has not been rough at times, we have "sailed", not hoved too, in 60 knots true, during a particularly nasty 50 knot storm north of NZ we decided to lay a hull and my wife suggested I take a "shower" and go to bed for a few hours which I did. So for ninety five percent of the time cups and glasses do stay exactly where you leave them. Our surfaces do have anti-slip mats but there are no fiddles.

double u 27-11-2019 18:53

Re: Catamaran vs Monohull Crew Safety
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jmh2002 (Post 3024291)
I believe that when @double u says catamaran he is referring to a Wharram, and in this case a 34ft Classic Tangaroa MKI (https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ml#post2143983)

This is a world away from a modern Wharram Tiki design, which in itself is also still very far away from any normal modern 'condomaran'.

Yep correct, Tangaroa Mk1. I think the difference to the “modern“ Tiki design would mainly be in the building, not so much in the sailing: same V-hulls, nearly symmetrical fore & aft, flexible, open bridge deck.
Our Tangaroa had a cutter rig with big headsails & sufficient sailarea, so sailing abilities were quite good - for a Wharram, I don't think a lagoon 38(0) would have beaten us on many points of sail. Comfort of course...
@capsize-ability:
I can assure everybody, that this is a definite possibility! Even our Wharram - heavily laden, wider than per design - came very close...it was at the end of our rtw, so we were no greenhorns, wind maybe 25-30kn, beam-reaching in a southerly off the African coast, fetch 20nm as far as I can remember. Short steep seas, boat going great guns. Suddenly the steepness & the distance between the crests, despite not being high enough to heel the boat to a dangerous degree, was just “right“ to impart a strong rotational impulse to the boat around the longitudinal axis (roll) that the boat seemed to teeter a moment...stuff that had not moved in the strongest winds in the red sea & in 36.000 miles was thrown around. Maybe it wasn't really all that close to a capsize, but it sure felt that way. With a higher CG...
For the disbelievers: to knock over a chair you can tilt it until it falls over or you can give it a hard shove that in itself “heels“ it insufficiently, but imparts a momentum that carries it past the point of no return.

double u 27-11-2019 19:03

Re: Catamaran vs Monohull Crew Safety
 
Tupaia: which size cat?

Dockhead 27-11-2019 19:07

Re: Catamaran vs Monohull Crew Safety
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by billknny (Post 3023468)
. . . .There are mono fanboys, and there are cat fanboys. Don't listen to either of them if you want a real answer.


Truer words never spoken!! :thumb:



The lack of heeling and great form stability of cats definitely make it safer, easier, and more pleasant getting around the boat in a seaway. Most of the time. On long passages on monos on a heel, getting around is exhausting and unpleasant. Absence of this is most definitely a great advantage of cats, and not just for safety.



But as has been said, it's not a magic bullet -- in certain sea conditions you will find the motion comfort much worse and it becomes difficult to get around, which means generally you head off or slow down. If you sail much upwind in strong conditions, you would probably prefer a mono despite the heeling, especially a larger mono. If you don't, you might find the advantages of cats to be irresistible -- many do.



Then of course there is a long list of other pros and cons which I won't go into.



This is all a matter of taste and a matter of where and when you sail, and how you sail, with what kind of load, etc etc, so you should charter a cat or two and get some miles under the keels to see if YOU like it, or don't. Ignore the fanboys on both sides and form your own opinion. Fanboy-ism of whatever kind is the enemy of truth. As far as I'm concerned, I like monos, I like cats, but then again, I like just about anything that floats -- I'm just an old boat whore. I even like motorboats. So don't listen to me, either :D

double u 27-11-2019 19:18

Re: Catamaran vs Monohull Crew Safety
 
“As far as I'm concerned, I like monos, I like cats...“
100% agree, but if it's ugly I dislike it no matter how many hulls it has! To paraphrase Marchaj: “Aesthetics, the forgotten factor“

44'cruisingcat 27-11-2019 22:16

Re: Catamaran vs Monohull Crew Safety
 
With mono's, it's not so much the heeling as the rolling that makes deck work more dangerous. One memory of our mono that is permanently etched is reefing in about 20 kts, with a beam swell, hanging onto the mast looking almost straight down at the water. With the mast stepped on the cabin top, the lifelines were only at about calf height and 2m away, with the boat level. Throw in some heel, and roll, and if I had let go of the mast I'd be overboard in a flash.

On the cat in similar (or worse) conditions, at the mast the lifelines are thigh height, and 3 1/2 metres away. There's virtually no way I could go over them.

mglonnro 27-11-2019 22:58

Re: Catamaran vs Monohull Crew Safety
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat (Post 3024925)
With mono's, it's not so much the heeling as the rolling that makes deck work more dangerous.

Adding to the direct effects of heeling, I was actually thinking a lot about moving around inside the boat. With a decent amount of heel, it's not that easy. Doing this and that task (preparing food for example), it might get even more difficult.

Then there are the indirect effects. Many people write that having to operate in a constantly tilted environment requires more energy and induces fatigue. I assume that there is a clear and positive correlation between fatigue and risk of accidents, and that would be the indirect effect.

double u 27-11-2019 23:01

Re: Catamaran vs Monohull Crew Safety
 
if yo let it “get away from you“ any boat will be dangerous, and a multihull even more so.

mglonnro 27-11-2019 23:15

Re: Catamaran vs Monohull Crew Safety
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dockhead (Post 3024842)
This is all a matter of taste and a matter of where and when you sail, and how you sail, with what kind of load, etc etc, so you should charter a cat or two and get some miles under the keels to see if YOU like it, or don't. Ignore the fanboys on both sides and form your own opinion. Fanboy-ism of whatever kind is the enemy of truth. As far as I'm concerned, I like monos, I like cats, but then again, I like just about anything that floats -- I'm just an old boat whore. I even like motorboats. So don't listen to me, either :D

Yes, absolutely! We'll have to get some multihull sailing time to actually figure out what we think about it.

I'm curious about the more scientific aspect of this, though, as well. In addition to all the very subjective opinions, how would one go about to figure out "the truth" about "it"? And what is the "it"?

My (slightly less) broad assumptions, that I would like to test:

1) Crew fatigue is related to crew safety -> more fatigue, more risk of accidents/injury. (I assume this has been researched already.)

2) In environment conditions [a, b, c, ...], the dynamics of [production catamaran model X] compared to [production monohull model Y] will induce significantly [more/less] fatigue to the crew.

Quote:

Ignore the fanboys on both sides and form your own opinion. Fanboy-ism of whatever kind is the enemy of truth.
So how would you go about finding out the truth? I mean if I want something more than my own subjective opinion?

IAmGroot 28-11-2019 04:25

Re: Catamaran vs Monohull Crew Safety
 
Monohull sailor here...but looking for a cat to liveaboard and eventually circumnavigate (after a few charters, admiral strongly prefers a cat).

One thing that has passed through my mind walking around the cats has been a general lack of handholds, and/or the wide-open spaces with nothing sturdy to grab onto. When you do have one of those unpredictable motions I would think there is a lot more distance to build up momentum to fall...even over the side if topsides. Also, with the distance from the side decks to the mast and hull to hull distance it must be difficult to keep a short tether unless you have a literal web of jacklines rigged. What is the real-world experience of the distance cruisers out there?

Snore 28-11-2019 04:58

Re: Catamaran vs Monohull Crew Safety
 
As someone with a lot of time on both types of vessel here are my thoughts.

In cabin: monohull have more hand holds below decks and fiddles on working countertops. Cats are missing both. Infuriating is that cats don’t even provide hardwood handholds for the stairs. Instead you must hold onto the ends of countertops.

Cockpit: the beam and design of cats makes even a safety conscious Delivery Capt like me ok with siting at the table in >12’ seas ok. Cats are light on “hard points” for jacklines. In a monohull I require crew to clip-in when they leave the cabin. Because the cockpit ona mono is smaller, stern cleats double as hard points. I like the helm on cats as I can add a hard point (dyneema loop) and know crew is safe helming or trimming or setting 1st reef.

On deck: going forward on a cat is safer in that you can stand while clipped and holding onto to coach roof. On a monohull a certain agility is required. BUT, on smaller cats you can go over the side on a 3’ tether. With a monohull I run the jack down the center and crew cannot fall off. HUGE cat disadvantage is going to mast. Setting the second and third reef requires going forward. Seas will be 10-12 or higher, and you will be 6-12’ above the water. “Things get sporty” so clipping in is mandatory. The issue is, once again, good hard points. Some cats have them, others do not.

In the end they are both tools for a job. And any tool is only as safe as the user.

boatman61 28-11-2019 05:06

Re: Catamaran vs Monohull Crew Safety
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat (Post 3024925)
With mono's, it's not so much the heeling as the rolling that makes deck work more dangerous. One memory of our mono that is permanently etched is reefing in about 20 kts, with a beam swell, hanging onto the mast looking almost straight down at the water. With the mast stepped on the cabin top, the lifelines were only at about calf height and 2m away, with the boat level. Throw in some heel, and roll, and if I had let go of the mast I'd be overboard in a flash.

On the cat in similar (or worse) conditions, at the mast the lifelines are thigh height, and 3 1/2 metres away. There's virtually no way I could go over them.

If you are saying when standing at the mast of a cat the lifelines are at thigh height I defy you to show me a Lagoon, Neel, FP or many others that meet this claim.
Lagoons I have sailed the life lines are below the level of my feet at the mast.
Wharrams.. Yes, the mast is on the beam at deck level.
On deck level they are pretty much equal.


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