Cruisers & Sailing Forums (https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/)
-   Monohull Sailboats (https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f47/)
-   -   First timer, can use some help choosing a boat (https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f47/first-timer-can-use-some-help-choosing-a-boat-225355.html)

Don C L 20-02-2021 14:46

Re: First timer, can use some help choosing a boat
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Belle25 (Post 3347511)
wouldn't a 22 ft too big for a beginner? I'd rather go with a 25ft if could start in it with no prior experience. I was even looking at posts about 27 ft boats, but i think that would be a lot for my experience level, which is nothing at the moment.

hmmmm I'm a little confused

Belle25 20-02-2021 14:52

Re: First timer, can use some help choosing a boat
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Don C L (Post 3347525)
hmmmm I'm a little confused

:) I meant to say, "I have no idea where to start." :)

Don C L 20-02-2021 15:06

Re: First timer, can use some help choosing a boat
 
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Belle25 (Post 3347530)
:) I meant to say, "I have no idea where to start." :)

Well, I'd start with lessons I think and see if you really do enjoy it and then renting something like the old Victory 21s or whatever is available locally for practice, though I think at first it is better to go with renting something smaller with only one sail to make things easier. And if you are set on buying a boat, do you have a budget to work with? An old but well cared for Catalina 22 would be a good way to start for the reasons I mentioned earlier. Here is an image of one I pulled off the web. Are you thinking of going bigger because you are looking for something safer, or less wet?

Sailmonkey 20-02-2021 15:08

Re: First timer, can use some help choosing a boat
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Belle25 (Post 3347511)
wouldn't a 22 ft too big for a beginner? I'd rather go with a 25ft if could start in it with no prior experience. I was even looking at posts about 27 ft boats, but i think that would be a lot for my experience level, which is nothing at the moment.



22 can be quite manageable for a beginner. But it also depends on the 22.

Something like this is very dinghy like, yet more comfortable than a dinghy.

https://www.catalinayachts.com/sport-series/22-sport/

Belle25 20-02-2021 16:57

Re: First timer, can use some help choosing a boat
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Don C L (Post 3347537)
Well, I'd start with lessons I think and see if you really do enjoy it and then renting something like the old Victory 21s or whatever is available locally for practice, though I think at first it is better to go with renting something smaller with only one sail to make things easier. And if you are set on buying a boat, do you have a budget to work with? An old but well cared for Catalina 22 would be a good way to start for the reasons I mentioned earlier. Here is an image of one I pulled off the web. Are you thinking of going bigger because you are looking for something safer, or less wet?

Catalina 22 or 25 are nice boats. Looks as if one of the very first advices could be the last one I'll need.
To be honest with you, me thinking of going bigger has no solid base. Less wet would be great, of course, but I don't want to sink the boat due to my noviceness either. A few folks here claimed that there was no difference btw 22 ft or 32 ft when it came to sailing a keel boat. I have no idea if they were correct with their opinions.
I've also thought about Compac 23, while looking at her bigger sister, but it has a cruising keel I assume - probably for shallow areas. I wonder how much it sacrifices from its sailing performance just to obtain that. Some Catalinas come with retractable keels, I think a good idea if maintained well.
According to what I've read, I guess Compac 23 will be slow and less scary, and Catalina 22 / 25 will be fast - and with Catalina, you can go against wind at a better angle as it has deeper keel. I think Catalina 22 / 25 will be better boats as probably, they must be more fun to sail. As my focus will be more on sailing at the beginning, decision is easy to make.
I think my decision is almost made. fin keel Catalina 25 (not the Capri)
Ballast/Displacement ratio over 40 and Capsize Screening Formula is under 2. Much better boat than both Catalina 22 and Compac 23. If I can handle it after a minimum amount of sailing classes...

Belle25 20-02-2021 16:59

Re: First timer, can use some help choosing a boat
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sailmonkey (Post 3347540)
22 can be quite manageable for a beginner. But it also depends on the 22.

Something like this is very dinghy like, yet more comfortable than a dinghy.

https://www.catalinayachts.com/sport-series/22-sport/

Looks like heading that way - 22 / 25 ft. Anything bigger is scary for a beginner, I think.

Belle25 20-02-2021 17:02

Re: First timer, can use some help choosing a boat
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Don C L (Post 3347537)
And if you are set on buying a boat, do you have a budget to work with?

budget won't be an issue for the very first boat. those prices are all fine. Secind boat, yeah, I'll have to work around a budget probably. Do you think I'll have to work with a surveyor for Catalina 22 / 25 purchase?

4eyes 20-02-2021 17:14

Re: First timer, can use some help choosing a boat
 
I'm about a year ahead of you on the learning curve.:smile: That said:

I went the dingy route, but would probably been better served with a small keelboat, just for physical limitations reasons.

A friend of mine had a Catalina 22 and said it was ideal for him to learn on. I do know it is an easy size to manage. Some 27' boats are multiple times heavier, thus harder to manage by oneself. Boats grow exponentially with length, not progressively.
Oh, and greetings from a fellow introvert. There are quite a few in this activity it seems. :thumb:

Belle25 20-02-2021 17:32

Re: First timer, can use some help choosing a boat
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by 4eyes (Post 3347620)
... A friend of mine had a Catalina 22 and said it was ideal for him to learn on. I do know it is an easy size to manage. Some 27' boats are multiple times heavier, thus harder to manage by oneself. Boats grow exponentially with length, not progressively.

Greetings! :) I'll keep this advice in mind.

Stu Jackson 20-02-2021 17:36

Re: First timer, can use some help choosing a boat
 
I've been reading these kinds of threads since the internet began. The replies are usually always well meaning and helpful.


In many, if not most or all cases, they appear to reflect the experiences of the folks who respond. Essentially, "Heck, here's what worked for me." And the YMMV is always true.


So, being the sunshine sailor I am here in winter, I asked myself: "What was it that I learned from sailing small boats?"


The answer, for me, was "Where is the wind coming from?" Primarily, this was because in smaller boats it REALLY matters, because without proper set for the sails, you can get DUMPED in the water.


I found this to be very helpful regardless of the size of boat I was sailing.


I started on Beetle catboats, then an old woodie (where I VERY mistakenly cleated off the mainsheet and got dumped for my stupidity!), then rental sailboats in the small 20 foot size), then our Catalina 22, Catalina 25 and this boat since 1998.


Good luck.


I also was a fool to not take skiing lessons and wasted a few good years banging around instead of learning some basics the right way. :)

Don C L 20-02-2021 17:41

Re: First timer, can use some help choosing a boat
 
Well, clearly you have been doing SOME homework! The Catalina 25 with a fixed keel is fine, but tougher to trailer. Perhaps your local marina has a dry storage yard there where they can lift the boat out and store it there, so you don't have to get a slip. As far as what is scary, I think at this point you'll find that heavier, not faster, will seem more scary when maneuvering around the marina. A fast boat can always be made slower, not so much the other way around. Sounds like you want to lean to the biggest possible for a beginner. 4eyes is right, as you go up in length, you go up exponentially in terms of forces at work, and cost! As far as a surveyor, that's up to you, but there isn't much to survey on a Catalina 22 that you can't have the owner show you (like, does the swing keel operate correctly.) But to know the sails and rigging are in good shape, and to get a good education in boats too, it's not a bad idea.
But, is the cart going ahead of the horse a bit here?

Belle25 20-02-2021 17:55

Re: First timer, can use some help choosing a boat
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Stu Jackson (Post 3347637)
... then our Catalina 22, Catalina 25 and this boat since 1998.

You had considerable amount of experience before hopping in a Catalina 22. I'll keep your advice in mind.

Belle25 20-02-2021 18:18

Re: First timer, can use some help choosing a boat
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Don C L (Post 3347640)
Well, clearly you have been doing SOME homework! The Catalina 25 with a fixed keel is fine, but tougher to trailer. Perhaps your local marina has a dry storage yard there where they can lift the boat out and store it there, so you don't have to get a slip. As far as what is scary, I think at this point you'll find that heavier, not faster, will seem more scary when maneuvering around the marina. A fast boat can always be made slower, not so much the other way around. Sounds like you want to lean to the biggest possible for a beginner. 4eyes is right, as you go up in length, you go up exponentially in terms of forces at work, and cost! As far as a surveyor, that's up to you, but there isn't much to survey on a Catalina 22 that you can't have the owner show you (like, does the swing keel operate correctly.) But to know the sails and rigging are in good shape, and to get a good education in boats too, it's not a bad idea.
But, is the cart going ahead of the horse a bit here?

:) Recently, I've had a lot of time in my hand. As you might've already guessed, I've been reading the threads here and a few books / old magazines.
I'm glad I brought up the bigger sailboat question. No more big sailboat dreams then - until I gain enough experience.
Where I live, the residents can dock their boats under 30ft for $200 a year - part of the complex. Some wooden thingy ('marina') that you tie your boat. Most boats there are powerboats for fishing. I'll have to have some figuring out before I can rely on that. I don't know the depth or anything.
Trailering won't work for me. Need a bigger car, even a truck and... Plus, I'm even thinking about sailing everyday. I have no friends, I don't hang out with family bunch, I wanna be away from computer and tv as much as I can, so I'm hoping to sail 4-5 times a day - when the weather permits. I've read about winter clothing for the purpose. If I'll have to store the boat at some point, I'll have to drive to a bigger marina. I can do that too.
Of course, I won't buy right away. I'll take a couple of classes, and I like the renting idea. Still, the cart is going only a couple of months ahead...
If the survoyor charges per hr, then it'll be all worth it. Just deliberations.
Very helpful replies. Thank you.

Don C L 20-02-2021 18:26

Re: First timer, can use some help choosing a boat
 
Yes, you can get a great education from surveyors and delivery skippers.

akprb 20-02-2021 21:25

Re: First timer, can use some help choosing a boat
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Belle25 (Post 3347509)
Actually, I ended up ordering a pizza after reading your post. :)
I guess it'll be a mixed pizza. I wanna sail at the beginning, but as I build my confidence, I wanna start going places. No rush here, i know porgress takes time.
I sure won't enjoy the wet experience of Lasers. I don't care much about racing or in and out of water dinghy fun. I'd really prefer to skip that step. The bad thing about my personality is that I don't do well in social groups either, a loner here. I, also, would like to keep the taking classes kinda thing at a minimum level. I wanna somehow learn and start with a 20 - 25ft. I've read lots of conflicting opinions here. Some say start with a small keel boat. others say "oh no difference btw 22 or 37 when it comes to sailing."
Here I am with no experience at all and looking for a considerably 'dry' start.

Ok, so that reads 1 slice sailing, 7 cruising. That is good. 1:7

I have two daughters that we raised sailing. They are about the same, 1:7. When I was 10-16 I was 7:1 (exact opposite, now Iím about to buy a trawler so a 0:8) :-)

I think buying a boat is getting ahead of yourself. I owned a Catalina 22 and 25 and 30 by the way. Been to the factory in CA, raced them, lived on them. I would not recommend one this summer.

New Jersey yes? Closest body of water with sailing?

AKA-None 21-02-2021 11:11

Re: First timer, can use some help choosing a boat
 
My opinion is that if you really need to own a boat then something like a Catalina 22 is cheap forgiving and not nearly as wet as a dingy.

Belle25 22-02-2021 12:54

Re: First timer, can use some help choosing a boat
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AKA-None (Post 3348166)
My opinion is that if you really need to own a boat then something like a Catalina 22 is cheap forgiving and not nearly as wet as a dingy.

22 or 25 catalina... I think I'll take classes, which more than likely be given in a 22, then a 25 is what I want. (not the capri.)

Belle25 22-02-2021 12:56

Re: First timer, can use some help choosing a boat
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Belle25 (Post 3347668)
... so I'm hoping to sail 4-5 times a day - when the weather permits...

Upsie! :) "A week," I meant to say.

Jim Cate 23-02-2021 04:04

Re: First timer, can use some help choosing a boat
 
Hi Belle,

I've been following this thread and finally wanted to add another idea for you to consider. (And like many bits of advice, this is based on what wo rked for me).

My first boat was neither a Laser like dinghy nor a keel boat. Rather, it was what is often called a day sailor... in our own case, an O'Day Osprey. 15+ feet in length, sloop rigged, small cuddy cabin forward, bench seats in the cockpit, centerboard and dirt simple in concept. Such vessels have the same sort of intimate connection with wind and water as a dinghy, but don't reward mistakes by dumping you into the brine. They are fairly dry, difficult to capsize, are decked forward and have the above mentioned cuddy. This was good for me, 'cause I had two smallish kids and a wife to consider, and it was slightly civilized for them.

I bought this boat one week after my very first exposure to sailing (easy convert) and zero experience. Read a couple of how-to books that week, and then proceeded to make a lot of errors... none of which caused damage to boat or family, just my ego. 18 months later I sold her on for the same price I had paid and bought a brand new Catalina 22... hull number 61 out of the ten thousand+ built since. The experience I'd had in the Osprey made the transition to the C22 pretty easy, and we were soon sailing her in the SF bay.

Kept that boat for 7 years, and then moved on to a 30 foot proper keel boat (Yankee 30) which we cruised, raced and day sailed for another 7 years.

All this lead up to eventually going cruising long term... and 35 years later we're still doing it... full time. And nary a lesson or certificate in the process.

My general point is that there is a useful point of entry to sailing slightly less expensive and less of a commitment than the c22, and that will perhaps expedite your progress even faster than the ASA... route and at considerably less expense.

Again, this is not what folks currently recommend, but a lot of that gestalt is simply following directions from those who profit from teaching. Basic sailing isn't difficult, and advanced sailing requires hours at sea in charge of a boat, not in classrooms listening to gurus.

Obviously I don't know what sort of learning works for you, but I do know what worked for me and I wanted to expose you to that concept.

Good luck with your search for a route... I think you will make it!

Jim

Belle25 23-02-2021 05:52

Re: First timer, can use some help choosing a boat
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Cate (Post 3349369)
...bought this boat one week after my very first exposure to sailing (easy convert) and zero experience. Read a couple of how-to books that week, and then proceeded to make a lot of errors... none of which caused damage to boat or family, just my ego. 18 months later I sold her on for the same price I had paid and bought a brand new Catalina 22...
My general point is that there is a useful point of entry to sailing slightly less expensive and less of a commitment than the c22, and that will perhaps expedite your progress even faster than the ASA... route and at considerably less expense...

This makes more sense to me than taking classes. I liked it. Thanks for sharing with me.

4eyes 23-02-2021 09:16

Re: First timer, can use some help choosing a boat
 
This channel helped me learn the basics: https://www.youtube.com/user/sailaboattv

Don C L 23-02-2021 16:08

Re: First timer, can use some help choosing a boat
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Belle25 (Post 3348965)
Upsie! :) "A week," I meant to say.

God I wish I could sail 4 or 5 times a day. If you can, go for it!

Belle25 23-02-2021 16:09

Re: First timer, can use some help choosing a boat
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Don C L (Post 3349772)
God I wish I could sail 4 or 5 times a day. If you can, go for it!

:smile:

EarlWer 23-02-2021 16:20

Re: First timer, can use some help choosing a boat
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Belle25 (Post 3347265)
I'm in the same boat too. I have no sailing experience and want a monohull sailboat. I don't like the sailing dinghy idea at all. I wonder what kind of path I should take to start. Has anyone completely skipped the Lasers / Sunfishes and become a good sailor?

I started with a 17' catamaran that I bought with a friend.
We never took lessons. Just read a lot of books and did a lot of sailing.
We sailed until it snowed and started when the lake was still half covered in ice.

It took a few years before I was confident enough to fly a hull single-handed while on the trapeze...

I think I'm pretty competent at sailing. A small cat will certainly get your reflexes working ;-)

I just bought a monohull for single-handed cruising, so the expectations and skills are somewhat different...

Now there are new things to be learned: Docking, Reefing, Navigating, Maintenance, etc. that were not needed when sailing on inland lakes.

A small dinghy is great to learn sailing and boat handling, but that's only a small part of cruising.

flightlead404 23-02-2021 16:58

Re: First timer, can use some help choosing a boat
 
Here's the initial checklist I used when eyeballing a boat and putting it on the short list:

Initial Presentation - Dirty or Clean, Rundown or Well Maintained
Hull and Topsides
  • Inspec at acute angle look for bumps and flat spots
  • Damage to rub strips, toe rail, stem, dock rash ets
  • If on hard, keel front edge, bottom, alignment with hull, separation?
  • Hull to deck joint separation
  • Signs of bliserting of damage/repair
  • Tap with screwdriver around suspect areas - sharp or dull sound?
Running Gear
  • Rudder - move by hand stop to stop, smooth?
  • Check zincs
  • Check prop for pinking or other damage
  • Check cutlass bearing play
Deck
  • Walk deck, listen for any creaking/crackling
  • Tap deck around stanchion bases, deck fittings etc
  • Check stanchion bases are solid
  • Look for telltale caulking around fittings, chain plates, ports and hatches
  • Any gelcoat crazing or cracks, damage, possible sites of h2o intrusion
  • Check winches rotate smoothly, listen to pawls
Canvass
  • Check for stiffness, life left in it
  • Look up through canvass, in good condition
  • Look for tears etc and check stitching
Sails
  • If sails are up, unroll a few feet check for stiffness, stitching, mold, birds, tears etc
  • Look at leech, esp around batten pockets
  • Check sacrificial cloth, in good shape?
  • check furler operates smoothly
Running and Standing Rigging
  • Sight up mast, straight, no dings, corrosion etc
  • Look up check out spreader tips
  • Check base for corrosion, boot condition
  • Check stays for swelling, broken wires, odd colors, kinks, bends
  • check sweage fittings for cracks, pitting, swelling, bends, corrosion
  • check chainplates and deck fittings for cracks, corrision, pitting etc
  • Look for bent tangs, elongated clevis pin holes, out of fair leads from stay
  • check cotter pins
  • check stays not loose
  • condition of running rigging, green and nasty or good cond
  • sheaves, cheek blocks, rope clutches etc working
  • yank on stays, ensure spreaders don't move around
Head and Bilges
  • pull up all boards from sole
  • check for smell
  • check for cleanliness, esp indications of "mud line" or possibly past sinking in slip
  • check float switch operates
  • examine thruhulls and sea cocks for corrosion
  • turn sea cocks, ensure turn smoothly
  • check for oil in bilges
  • using inspection mirror and flashlight look up inside, look for signs of leaks into bilge or other issues
  • condition of keep bolts and backing washers
Salon and staterooms
  • Open all storage, lockers, under benches etc look for signs of leaks, mold etc
  • ensure all cabin doors open/close and no signs of adjustment, explore if door frame out of true
  • check for unexplained moisture
  • examine interior chain plates or thru-deck rigging attachments for past leaking
  • check below all ports and hatches for signs of water streaking, leaks etc
  • check wood trim for h2o damage
Electronics and Electrical[LIST][*]battery size, age, placement, retaining straps, connections etc for cleanliness and up to standards[*]check wiring to ensure boat wiring[*]check visible contacts - no tape or wire nuts etc[*]all visible terminals clean and secure[*]wiring orderly and labeled clearly[*]no unsupported wiring[*]look for chafe, bare wire, broken wire etc[/LIST
Engine
  • engine is clean, check for oil leaks, mirror below engine look for leaks
  • check around pan and head gasket look for leaks
  • check engine to transmission case for leaks
  • check belt tension, condition, look for belt dust/misaligned pulleys
  • check racor is clean
  • check all hoses and lines for age, checking, general condition
  • check no oil in coolant overflow
  • check no emulsion on oil fillter cap or dipstick
  • examine oil on dopstick for level, no burnt smell, color etc
  • check no fuel on oil dipstick
  • look for dates on filters - serviced recently
  • transmission moves in/out of gear smoothly

That s/b thorough enough to determine if its worth short-listing the boat or making an offer. doesn't take the place of a proper survey though.

sa1l1ng33k 24-02-2021 11:43

Re: First timer, can use some help choosing a boat
 
You certainly have a good budget. If you're looking to cruise, I would get a ketch in the 40-50ft range. Those are the best for blue water with a budget like yours. Don't hold back! Get something a bit bigger for your journey. You won't regret it!


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 17:50.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.


ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.