Cruisers & Sailing Forums (https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/)
-   Monohull Sailboats (https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f47/)
-   -   First timer, can use some help choosing a boat (https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f47/first-timer-can-use-some-help-choosing-a-boat-225355.html)

desodave 16-10-2019 13:59

Re: First timer, can use some help choosing a boat
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by GordonShumway (Post 2997854)
I didn't mention it because there's none to mention lol. In all seriousness though, I am aware that starting on such a big boat is less than ideal. My plan is (like you say) to spend a lot of time on other people's boats, taking 'learn to sail' classes and probably even hiring a captain to take us out on our own boat. This might mean we don't actually sail our own boat for a long time but because we really need the 'condo' first and foremost, I think a small boat is out (sensible as it would be from a sailing perspective). Ok, you guys can all call me an idiot now :biggrin:


You're NOT an idiot, just optimistic!


Have you considered chartering yourself? We found it a good way to try different boats before we bought one ourselves. You will have to get some credentials first before chartering, however, and different companies may make different demands. I chartered for 2 weeks to go to Desolation Sound (20 yrs ago) as I was completing a basic CSA course as a refresher - with no real experience other than taking a course 20 years earlier and (prob more importantly) 2 successful charters shortly thereafter. Your immediate condo requirements may scupper that option though.



Our 1st (and only) purchase was a 38 ft boat and that was bigger than anything we chartered. As long as you're relatively healthy, I don't see any real problems with starting at the lengths you're talking about - things are a bit bigger, a bit heavier and you may have more freeboard. But you still have to learn the foibles and characteristics of a particular boat to operate her. I was pretty "nervous" for the first couple of seasons but that was it - we too went out for a week with a hired captain ( after 2 yrs) to get an experienced assessment of our abilities, and to improve them. But we have the room we want ( oh I have 4 ft-itis moments too) and that makes the boat a keeper for us. PNW weather can keep you inside a boat and nothing worse imo than to be cramped up inside something too small.


We may see you cruising the Salish Sea in the near future :thumb::thumb:

contrail 16-10-2019 14:23

Re: First timer, can use some help choosing a boat
 
Whilst it is easier to learn small, your criteria start with three cabins and your use is going to be local cruising with your kids, and you probably want all of them to come to love sailing. So that trumps "start small", for those who didn't read your original post carefully. And, by the way, it is certainly feasible to start with a bigger boat. Many do. The other problem with buying a bigger boat is that, if you find you don't like sailing, your investment (and probable loss), will be larger. But, there are many pleasures in life that require risking something, including sailing, so I would press on. It might makes sense, however, to charter a boat, locally, with a captain, for a long weekend with the family, to see if there are any immediate red flags (sea sickness being one) and if everyone who needs to buy in, does so.


After that, well, your budget means you will get an older boat, and probably one that has a short equipment list, but you can extend that as you wish. The old Morgan OI 41 would definitely be a candidate as they are old enough to have possibly had a big refit. But most of them were in charter, at some point, and I am guessing that beyond a certain age, most three cabin boats will have been charter boats. And there are plenty of charter boats that are in good shape, particularly if there has been a private owner, since the charter career. You specifically mentioned two Jeanneaus. Nothing about either would put me off, but I would get the best surveyor I could find. Another poster mentioned a catamaran, and you expressed an interest in one, but can't get a slip for a year and a half. That makes me wonder if you would do best to get on that waiting list, and use the intervening year and a half joining a sailing club, or volunteering on a race boat crew (beginners are fine for both), and sailing as much as possible on other people's boats. In a year, start looking for an appropriate cat, which, by the way, may strain the budget a bit. But you would get the experience you want and need, and then start with a boat well suited to your particular task. An added bonus is that it might be the boat that you want to take cruising when you set out in ten years. By then, you would know it and its equipment perfectly. So would your kids.

GordonShumway 16-10-2019 17:09

Re: First timer, can use some help choosing a boat
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by desodave (Post 2997880)
You're NOT an idiot, just optimistic!

haha, thanks!


Quote:

Have you considered chartering yourself?
That's an interesting idea... We do have an immediate need we're trying to satisfy, but it might be worth seeing if we can get out on a weekend with a captain and charter a couple different boats. Not sure what that would cost... probably cheaper than buying the wrong boat lol.

Quote:

We may see you cruising the Salish Sea in the near future :thumb::thumb:
Hell yeah, definitely!

akprb 17-10-2019 00:12

Re: First timer, can use some help choosing a boat
 
Never heard this question before.

acem 17-10-2019 07:26

Re: First timer, can use some help choosing a boat
 
If I did not start with a smaller boat I would start with a boat with lesser value first for learning to sail. It takes a while to get better at docking, reefing, etc (small boats are just more forgiving). If you damage a 20K boat you will be less sick than if you damage a 100K boat...

Of course if you are just living on the boat without sailing, thats a different situation. You would probably be better off with a houseboat for that. I would not be above living on a houseboat.

Thx-Ace

IrieSailor 17-10-2019 08:41

Re: First timer, can use some help choosing a boat
 
I apologise I did not go into detail & perhaps I was too quick to knock the Charter boat (I’m getting the impression your not going to be doing a whole ton of sailing at the moment and that is quite all right. I was trying to point out what a good sailing vessel that will be used frequently for the purpose of sailing or long term cruising will require.

It’s really hard to look at a boat on-line and come to any solid conclusions. It’s also not practical to go and visit every single boat you think may be a possible winner. You also cannot pay to have every other boat professionally surveyed. So you need to get very critical and dial in exactly what you need from the boat you intend to purchase and ask the seller precise questions to narrow down the search. If you don’t know very much about boats one quick way to narrow your search is to only look at boats that have been recently surveyed (this will narrow your search very quickly)

Create a list of what you definitely need in a boat: So far I’ve gathered you want a boat that you can comfortably live aboard in with your family that has at least 3 cabins. Some of us consider the head or the main salon to be a cabin so you’ll need to think about what you consider to be a cabin. I also read you eventually someday would like to sell the boat and maybe go cruising as a couple. This is why I emphasized re-saleability.

Boat’s are not good investments ! Repeat that to yourself like a mantra ! They are luxuries.

So buying a boat that can be re- sold quickly is sort of an art form but it should be learned.

Next you need to ask yourself is it a sailboat I need right now ? That’s a serious question. You can live on the water with many different kinds of boats and buy a little American 14.6 (good boat for adults and kids to learn on self-bailing and un-sinkable) as your tender and learn to sail on it.

If your truely set on a sailboat : then right now it seems to me you do not need a blue water cruiser. You need space, you need amenities like solar & wind power (if you plan to live on the hook), a great battery bank & a modern inverter system, ample grey water & fresh water tanks. Definitely new or recently updated wiring, pumps, and plumbing. Perhaps dingy davits, An excellent Bimini top, a stand up shower, things of this nature. That all spells Catalina to me but others will argue differently.

I suggested the Morgan Out Island but I was thinking of cruising and maybe that’s not a good fit for your certain needs at the moment. Anyway here is an example of a very clean and pristine boat in your price range https://moreboats.com/boats/catalina/42-mkii/318879.
I would consider this a decent coastal boat. I don’t like the wing keel (whole other topic) but it’s just an example of a clean boat and for your needs a boat with a wing keel wont make much of a difference. I’m not suggesting this is the boat to buy. What I want you to notice is the sellers description, notice how it mentions the rigging & wireing is new ect..

Also remember boats your looking at do not need to be in your area ! You can have a boat delivered to any destination by a competent sailor, many can be found on this forum. One good way to buy a boat actually is tell a seller I’ll put half down and you can get the other half if you can sail and deliver the boat to a certain destination. I’m not a broker by the way lol just giving you an example.

I’ve owned many different sailboats in my life but I’ve learned to choose them for my situation and destination.

Now I Currently I own a 26 ft trailerable sailboat with a shallow draft. It suits my situation. I’m not going to go cruising again in the next few years. I own a home so I don’t need to live aboard the boat. I have a garden so I can keep the boat at home on a trailer and don’t have to pay mooring or docking fees. I go exploring on the weekends or whenever the weather is right and overnight the odd time. I want to be able to sail in shallow water so I can fully appreciate and explore the many different waters around my home in the Florida Keys. I watch the weather and don’t head out if there’s heavy chop or high winds and I’m quite ok with that at the moment. Light weather, Coastal sailing in a boat that can hold 2 adults and 4 kids safely & comfortably.

I take the boat out often and though the boat has a motor I rarely use it. I bought a sailboat because I want to sail it. I bought this particular style of sailboat because it was practical for my needs, It was in pristine condition for it’s age, and I’m certain I will be able to sell it (quickly) for slightly less than the price I paid for it in a couple of years. My whole point is I bought a specific style of boat for the right reasons and with a practical approach (I hope).

Anyway I wish you and your family the best of luck in your search. I hope I’ve been slightly helpful. It has cost me a lot of money and many hours sweating and cursing trying to fix up old boats (time that would have been better spent sailing them) & trying to get rid of boats that I put too much money into. Eventually I learned my lessons over the years, hopefully you will follow some of the excellent advice provided in these forums and choose a good boat that serves it’s intended purpose for your situation.

joelhemington 17-10-2019 10:06

Re: First timer, can use some help choosing a boat
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by GordonShumway (Post 2997368)
Hi everyone, first post, first (potential) boat.. lotta firsts for us right now! My wife and I have been looking at boats for a little while now, but being first-timers I don't really trust my ability to know if a boat is 'good' or not and feel like some opinions would be really helpful... and I've browsed here long enough to know there's no shortage of those here :biggrin:

First, we are working with a broker and he's been helpful with his opinions, but I also know he's looking for a sale. And also we will get a survey before buying anything (just putting that out there).

We're in the Pacific Northwest (Seattle area) and are looking at a couple of local boats but I'm questioning what's 'normal' use vs what's been beat and will need lots of work in the near future.

Our criteria is 3 cabin, under 42 ft. My wife and I plan to head out cruising in 10 years after the kids are off (likely a different boat then). In the meantime we want to get our feet wet on weekend adventures around the San Juan islands with the kids, and use the boat as a literal floating condo. That's actually the biggest motivating factor for us buying a boat now. We need a 'home base' in Tacoma and this is way more fun than an apartment :)

So a couple of boats we're considering - A 2008 Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 39i, and a 1999 Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 42.2. Total coincidence they're both Jeanneau.

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/200...dard%20listing

The 2008 was in charter... I'm realizing most 3 cabins were. We have 4 kids and so the 3rd cabin is really a big deal for us (at this point in our life). The problem is, it looks like it was in charter. For example, the Jeanneau badge on the side of the cockpit is missing it's "J". The leather on the steering wheels are worn through. Many of the latches in the cabin feel corroded. The faucets in both heads are the same way. The whole cockpit looks like it was left exposed to the weather and never covered up.


https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/199...dard%20listing

I originally passed on considering this boat - it has almost 8000 engine hours! I found out from our broker the couple owning this boat cruised extensively, and something with how they had it set up meant they ran the engine a lot as a generator. Not sure if that's a tall tale or what... In my mind all those hours mean that boat was used a ton and everything would be old and worn out. I'm looking through the listing with fresh eyes and it seems like it's had quite a bit of re-fit, albeit 12 years ago.

In our budget (~125k) I know we're looking at 10+ year old boats but I don't want something that's been abused or will be a project. How much of this stuff is normal use, and what indicates something hasn't been taken care of? What should we be looking for. Thank you!!

Of the two major production French boats, Jeanneau and Benteau, most people would consider Jeanneau to be the better of the two (fewer bean counters in the boatyard) That said, if there were major corners cut in the build, you'd find it on the charter boats as this is a very competitive market and one that Beneteau is very big in. Thus I would choose the slightly newer 39' er as it appears to be a non-charter vessel.

A well maintained diesel engine can easily go for 25,000 miles with a replacement cost of about $20 grand installed. If you're buying a twenty year old boat, understand that most (if not all) of the original equipment will need to be replaced prior to any serious blue water cruising. This can easily add up to more than you paid for the boat initially. Plus you should really have a genset and watermaker as well as the solar to run the watermaker and other electrical needs. This is not a poor man's game. I know of many sailors that rely on rain water catchment rather than a watermaker but once you get to atoll world in a particularly dry spell, you may find the residents less than keen to let you fill up your tanks with their limited water supply.

Being in somewhat the same position as you ( currently looking even though I do have roughly 3,000 nautical miles under my belt on other people's boats), I have narrowed my search criterion to three major concerns.

1. No wet hulls and/or keels.

2 No soft/wet decks

3. No compromised bulkheads.

As I am currently browsing the 46' Hallberg Rasseys ( I say browsing as there are very few Hallbergs here on the West Coast to actually look at). I plan a circumnavigation within the next three years and need the 46'er to accommodate some crew (I need my sleep) As I am looking at boats in the 10 to 15 year old range, I fully expect to be making many changes. Everything shy of the big three can be replaced - it just costs money.

MJH 17-10-2019 11:02

Re: First timer, can use some help choosing a boat
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by GordonShumway (Post 2997368)
Hi everyone, first post, first (potential) boat.. lotta firsts for us right now! My wife and I have been looking at boats for a little while now, but being first-timers I don't really trust my ability to know if a boat is 'good' or not and feel like some opinions would be really helpful... and I've browsed here long enough to know there's no shortage of those here :biggrin:

First, we are working with a broker and he's been helpful with his opinions, but I also know he's looking for a sale. And also we will get a survey before buying anything (just putting that out there).

We're in the Pacific Northwest (Seattle area) and are looking at a couple of local boats but I'm questioning what's 'normal' use vs what's been beat and will need lots of work in the near future.

Our criteria is 3 cabin, under 42 ft. My wife and I plan to head out cruising in 10 years after the kids are off (likely a different boat then). In the meantime we want to get our feet wet on weekend adventures around the San Juan islands with the kids, and use the boat as a literal floating condo. That's actually the biggest motivating factor for us buying a boat now. We need a 'home base' in Tacoma and this is way more fun than an apartment :)

So a couple of boats we're considering - A 2008 Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 39i, and a 1999 Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 42.2. Total coincidence they're both Jeanneau.

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/200...dard%20listing

The 2008 was in charter... I'm realizing most 3 cabins were. We have 4 kids and so the 3rd cabin is really a big deal for us (at this point in our life). The problem is, it looks like it was in charter. For example, the Jeanneau badge on the side of the cockpit is missing it's "J". The leather on the steering wheels are worn through. Many of the latches in the cabin feel corroded. The faucets in both heads are the same way. The whole cockpit looks like it was left exposed to the weather and never covered up.


https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/199...dard%20listing

I originally passed on considering this boat - it has almost 8000 engine hours! I found out from our broker the couple owning this boat cruised extensively, and something with how they had it set up meant they ran the engine a lot as a generator. Not sure if that's a tall tale or what... In my mind all those hours mean that boat was used a ton and everything would be old and worn out. I'm looking through the listing with fresh eyes and it seems like it's had quite a bit of re-fit, albeit 12 years ago.

In our budget (~125k) I know we're looking at 10+ year old boats but I don't want something that's been abused or will be a project. How much of this stuff is normal use, and what indicates something hasn't been taken care of? What should we be looking for. Thank you!!

Gordon,

Looks like you have caught the sailing bug watching half of Seattle disappear during the summer as they go north to the San Juans, Desolation Sound, and Alaska...been there done that for the last 24 years and don't blame you.

Now on to reality. My sailboat ownership history went from a 22' to a 28' to a 42'; 22' to 28' was easy but the 28' to 42' offshore boat was more complicated and expensive. Also, I learned that the family lost real interest with the 22'...I was on my own.

From your post I don't think you are the maintenance loving type. Additionally, having four kids at home for the next ten years will occupy the center of your life, take my word for it.

While I have never chartered a boat I think that is the best course for you at this point to get your feet wet (so to speak) into sailing. Take the classes with your family to all get prepared. When you return from your sailing adventures all you have to do is write the check. Each year purposely choose a different make/model of boat to experience what the differences are. Invest for that boat for you and the wife, ten years is a good investment target date.

As it gets closer to when "...the kids are off" and you can look to your sailing experience come back with your questions.

~ ~ _/) ~ ~ MJH

GordonShumway 17-10-2019 13:10

Re: First timer, can use some help choosing a boat
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by IrieSailor (Post 2998348)
I apologise I did not go into detail & perhaps I was too quick to knock the Charter boat (Iím getting the impression your not going to be doing a whole ton of sailing at the moment and that is quite all right. I was trying to point out what a good sailing vessel that will be used frequently for the purpose of sailing or long term cruising will require.

No need to apologize! I get what you're saying...I suppose you could break our requirements into 2 categories: The live-aboard portion (i.e. the need for a 'condo') and the sailing aspect. I think even though at least initially the 'condo' is the more important part, we definitely want to sail as well and want a boat well equipped for sailing.

Quote:

Itís really hard to look at a boat on-line and come to any solid conclusions. Itís also not practical to go and visit every single boat you think may be a possible winner. You also cannot pay to have every other boat professionally surveyed. So you need to get very critical and dial in exactly what you need from the boat you intend to purchase and ask the seller precise questions to narrow down the search. If you donít know very much about boats one quick way to narrow your search is to only look at boats that have been recently surveyed (this will narrow your search very quickly)
Yes, that's the conundrum! good tip to look for boats already surveyed. Will brokers readily share those results with potential buyers? My assumption is that surveys are done usually as part of a sale, and if that boat is still for sale it means the previous buyer walked... Would want to know more about why in that case!

Quote:

I also read you eventually someday would like to sell the boat and maybe go cruising as a couple. This is why I emphasized re-saleability.
...
So buying a boat that can be re- sold quickly is sort of an art form but it should be learned.

Next you need to ask yourself is it a sailboat I need right now ?

Quote:

A well maintained diesel engine can easily go for 25,000 miles with a replacement cost of about $20 grand installed. If you're buying a twenty year old boat, understand that most (if not all) of the original equipment will need to be replaced prior to any serious blue water cruising. This can easily add up to more than you paid for the boat initially.
I added this quote from Joel in a separate comment because I think these are related. My reason for a sailboat now (vs a motor yacht or something similar) is mainly that it lines up with our long term goals. If we want to head out sailing someday it probably would be a good idea to learn to sail at some point :biggrin:. If we get a sailboat now we can begin that process of becoming competent sailers while also using the boat as our 'home base' when we need a crash pad.

Joel's quote touches on why I assume we'll be looking for a different boat when the times comes to cruise. My assumption being that what works for us now won't necessarily be the same thing when it comes time to set off around the world, and setting up a boat that way is expensive! BUT - in an ideal world it would be best if we didn't need to change boats.

Quote:

If your truely set on a sailboat : then right now it seems to me you do not need a blue water cruiser. You need space, you need amenities like solar & wind power (if you plan to live on the hook), a great battery bank & a modern inverter system, ample grey water & fresh water tanks. Definitely new or recently updated wiring, pumps, and plumbing. Perhaps dingy davits, An excellent Bimini top, a stand up shower, things of this nature. That all spells Catalina to me but others will argue differently.

Anyway here is an example of a very clean and pristine boat in your price range https://moreboats.com/boats/catalina/42-mkii/318879.
I've come across a few 3 cabin Catalina's and I have to say I really like them - they seem like really solid boats. And I see what you mean about the long list of maintenance and improvements. I'm into old VW's so I'm well versed in the idea that you're buying the prior owners maintenance (or lack thereof) in addition to the car ...love to see those stacks of receipts!


Quote:

Also remember boats your looking at do not need to be in your area ! You can have a boat delivered to any destination by a competent sailor, many can be found on this forum. One good way to buy a boat actually is tell a seller Iíll put half down and you can get the other half if you can sail and deliver the boat to a certain destination. Iím not a broker by the way lol just giving you an example.
It's funny you mention this - I saw a boat last night that's in the mid-west that if it was local I'd be all over! I chatted with my broker this morning about it actually. He mentioned it would take a de-rig, truck, and re-rig. He thought the de-rig and re-rig would be 2500-3500 each, plus whatever the truck ran to get it out to Seattle. Does that sound about right? I know that people ship/truck boats to get exactly what they want, but $10k-$15k is a lot of money!!


Quote:

Anyway I wish you and your family the best of luck in your search. I hope Iíve been slightly helpful.
Thank you, and you've been more than 'slightly' helpful!

GordonShumway 17-10-2019 13:13

Re: First timer, can use some help choosing a boat
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MJH (Post 2998430)
From your post I don't think you are the maintenance loving type. Additionally, having four kids at home for the next ten years will occupy the center of your life, take my word for it.

Don't get me wrong, I love a good project! I have an '87 VW Westfalia that definitely fits that bill lol. But to your point, with 4 kids, soccer, school, etc etc life is very busy and I don't think I'd be setting myself up for success if I took on a boat that had a lengthy list of things needing immediate attention!

Bon Temps 28-10-2019 08:04

Re: First timer, can use some help choosing a boat
 
A lot of info here. I will keep mine short. If you want a floating condo you want a catamaran. You also will not scare the crap out of nonsailers by heeling over at 45į

mustbenuts 28-10-2019 08:57

Re: First timer, can use some help choosing a boat
 
Good luck! Went from a Sunfish to a Chrysler Buccaneer to a Sabre - then a SeaRay stinkpot hiatus - but back looking for a cruiser/liveaboard. Keep reading up on this site. A wealth of knowledge here!
Fair seas and following winds!

Nepidae 28-10-2019 17:57

Re: First timer, can use some help choosing a boat
 
I'm currently NOT a sail boater, we own a trawler.

Regardless, I'd say, if you have sailing experience, that you go for a 42 as opposed to a smaller boat. Even though you say it probably isn't going to be your boat in 10yrs, you never know and you can get a lot more personal items and has space for you both, in a 42 opposed to a 39 (3' is a big deal).

I'd also point out that the 42 pictures show that the anchor chain hasn't been well cared for so what else hasn't been. I take our anchor chain each year and disconnect it from the anchor and store it in a bucket (@150'). As I drop it in the bucket I spray with a corrosion inhibitor. What's left in the can when all the chain is in the bucket is sprayed on top.

There is no rust on our chain. IT looks also that the windlass is a LoFrans Tigres which is a great windlass, in fact we have 1 on our boat.

I'd check when the last time it had maintenance done on it. You don't want that to fail when you need it most. Couldn't see the anchor.

Also noticed that they had put a Smart Plug on the shore power. Great move and a very safe setup, BUT it also looks like the boot where the cord enters the plug is split on top and will need to be replaced.

Not a fan of Raymarine but probably needs replacing anyway. A negotiation point.

The teak decks look pretty good.

Couldn't read the Hobbs meter but I'd have an engine survey done, even if it is 170hrs.

Don't like the blue tape on whatever it's on in whatever locker that is.

Interior looks in pretty good shape.

Bottom doesn't seem to show any blistering.

Obviously, check all rigging, sails and covers, as well as all furling gear. Very expensive to replace

When we bought our trawler I had a walk-thru survey done, to decide if I was going to go further. Might, if it is a strong contender, or when you have a strong contender, want to consider it.

Hope this helps.

Good luck.

SofiaB 28-10-2019 18:58

Re: First timer, can use some help choosing a boat
 
I was in your same position 8 years ago: What boat to buy as my first boat? After searching for 2 years and reading every post about good boats and intended purpose... I chose a boat. Then after sailing for a year I realized what I wanted and I realized I had no clew and could not have made a good decision until I sailed for awhile. Only then did I realize exactly what I wanted. I then sold and purchased my next boat. It was only then that I found that whatever everyone else told me did not matter. I needed to gain the knowledge and experience for myself. But I had to first sail the boat. I first discovered that I did really like sailing and my decision to not go all in on the first boat was a good decision. I learned that my family also liked the lifestyle and we wanted more. We learned what each of us wanted and also what we didn’t like about our first boat. So, that’s my experience and at the same time my advice. Good luck! I hope your story turns out like ours.

s/v Breakaway 31-10-2019 05:29

Re: First timer, can use some help choosing a boat
 
Gordon,
Based on your needs and situation, I think getting an off-charter Bene-Jenn-Cat would be a good choice. And with $125,000 you should be able to get a decent boat. But as has been said before, when buying used, the condition of the individual boat is what matters. It doesn't cost anything to start looking at boats for sale and getting ideas of what appeals to you. At least you already know that this may not be your "forever" boat.

Good luck!


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:28.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.


ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.