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-   -   Fuel additives? Yes or no (https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f54/fuel-additives-yes-or-no-223498.html)

sailingchiro 08-09-2019 19:36

Re: Fuel additives? Yes or no
 
Fuel from 10 years ago isn't the same as the fuel today unfortunately. I store jerry cans on my boat and within 3 months, black stuff had grown in the bottom.
I asked a guy that maintains the generators for the school district, (fuel sits alot) and he turned me on to power service. Been using their products since. Poured some biocide in the jerry cans and the black stuff was killed. They also have the centane additive.
Asked my flight instuctor regarding jet fuel, he said they use biocide made by biobor in the jets. Recently a jet lost both engines due to fuel filters clogging. Dead stick landing IS a humbling event. I only had to do once.
Docking with one engine on a catamaran is also humbling within a very tight marina.
I am not endorsed by power service but use all their products.

Captain Anthony 09-09-2019 12:47

Re: Fuel additives? Yes or no
 
I have always added a fuel additive whether gas or diesel. I have never had a fuel issue. Why change now , who wants to save a few bucks but have an engine malfunction ?

Simi 60 09-09-2019 13:02

Re: Fuel additives? Yes or no
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Anthony (Post 2972997)
I have always added a fuel additive whether gas or diesel. I have never had a fuel issue. Why change now , who wants to save a few bucks but have an engine malfunction ?


I have never added a fuel additive whether petrol or diesel. I have never had a fuel issue. Think of all the money I have saved .

thinwater 09-09-2019 13:50

Re: Fuel additives? Yes or no
 
"I have always added a fuel additive whether gas or diesel. I have never had a fuel issue. Why change now, who wants to save a few bucks but have an engine malfunction?"


[What did the additive do? What were you trying to get it to do?]



"I have never added a fuel additive whether petrol or diesel. I have never had a fuel issue. Think of all the money I have saved."



[Are you sure? Could any of your engine problems actually have been fuel-related?]



And this is why the industry does NOT want standards. They thrive on mystery and they know that benefits are tricky to prove. Primarily, additives only help if the fuel is deficient in some way, and that is hard to define.

sailorboy1 09-09-2019 14:24

Re: Fuel additives? Yes or no
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by thinwater (Post 2972009)
* There are few/no standards for additives. There have been efforts, but too many mixed motives. Thus, it is perfectly legal to sell snake oil. This is true of most additives (oil, gas, diesel).

you mean like fuel "stabilizers" that don't stabilizer anything :facepalm:

Marc1 09-09-2019 14:33

Re: Fuel additives? Yes or no
 
It is obvious that the end user can only have personal or anecdotal evidence of the usefulness or otherwise of fuel additives, and that is why the market thrives.

But the fact that most folks don't have a personal lab to test their fuel and additives, does not mean the consumer is a fool if he buys or if he does not. And this thread is proof of that. If you use additives you apparently are a fool ... if you don't ... well you are also a fool.
The story of the man, the boy and the donkey comes to mind ...https://medium.com/@melissachu/the-m...s-e61990cf8a07

As for fuel, I hear my neighbours complaining about their chainsaw pack it in in due to old fuel left in the tank at the end of the season. I have 3 1960ties Homelite of different sizes and they all start at first pull with whatever I leave in the tank plus a bit more. Why? First I only buy premium 98 octane petrol something that is supposedly wrong for two strokes ... plus ... I add fuel stabiliser to the drum I keep petrol in, to run the Searay, the ride on mower and the chainsaw and the blower and everything else petrol.

As for diesel, I also add fuel additive to the diesel drum for the boat that runs a kubota 50 hp and ... drum roll ... I also add 1/2 % of two stroke oil to the diesel to compensate for the lowering lubricity due to lower sulfur.
I have no way to know if the oil addition or the fuel stabiliser actually do what they are supposed to do, and I have no way to know that being free of fuel related engine trouble is due to additives or that Poseidon is grateful that I did not change my boat's name when I bought it.
To be honest, for the little money I spend on additives and two stroke oil, I really don't care. There is some secret satisfaction in adding additives to your fuel, and I am not about to stop now.
Then again, I am the master of my domain ... was thinking in adding perfume to the fuel ... what do you think? :)

a64pilot 09-09-2019 15:45

Fuel additives? Yes or no
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MartinR (Post 2971756)
No, they are not. Jet fuel is kerosene which is much lighter, has a lower flash point, and will destroy your injection pump quickly, as it has very bad lubricating properties. Yes, some diesels can run on it, but not the normal small boat engines.



Well, yes and no.
Winter Diesel, #1 Diesel is Kerosene, it may be blended with #2 Diesel or it can be straight Kerosene, so Winter Diesel and jet fuel are nearly identical, jet fuel is more pure, more highly refined and more regulated / tested etc.
jet-A is pretty much just a pure, highly refined kerosene, if you have kerosene heaters, run jet in them, it burns clean and few fumes.
Jet-A+ has Prist or similar blended in, Prist containing fuel is required for all at least Army aircraft, itís an anti icing / anti microbial additive.
Only a foolish person runs fuel without an anti microbial additive, you will get bit one day, itís not the 70ís anymore.
Jet fuel has when compared to ULSD, extremely high sulphur content, extremely high.

Then a question Iíve had and never gotten a decent answer to, is ULSD a replacement for #2 Diesel, meaning is it considered #2 Diesel, or is #2 Diesel just a outdated term?

Finally two stroke oil isnít a good lubricity additive, but if you donít have a Diesel with fancy catalysts etc., it likely doesnít hurt.

This is still to my knowledge the best, actual scientifically conducted test for the lubricity of Diesel fuel additives.
Youíll notice that the best was soy based biofuel, but notice it was only 2% Bio, if you can find B10, itís much better than anything else for lubricity, much better.
Bugs? Extended storage time? Who knows.
https://www.dieselplace.com/forum/76-...y-results.html

redneckrob 09-09-2019 16:10

Re: Fuel additives? Yes or no
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by a64pilot (Post 2973147)
Well, yes and no.
Winter Diesel, #1 Diesel is Kerosene, it may be blended with #2 Diesel or it can be straight Kerosene, so Winter Diesel and jet fuel are nearly identical, jet fuel is more pure, more highly refined and more regulated / tested etc.
jet-A is pretty much just a pure, highly refined kerosene, if you have kerosene heaters, run jet in them, it burns clean and few fumes.
Jet-A+ has Prist or similar blended in, Prist containing fuel is required for all at least Army aircraft, itís an anti icing / anti microbial additive.
Only a foolish person runs fuel without an anti microbial additive, you will get bit one day, itís not the 70ís anymore.
Jet fuel has when compared to ULSD, extremely high sulphur content, extremely high.

Then a question Iíve had and never gotten a decent answer to, is ULSD a replacement for #2 Diesel, meaning is it considered #2 Diesel, or is #2 Diesel just a outdated term?

Finally two stroke oil isnít a good lubricity additive, but if you donít have a Diesel with fancy catalysts etc., it likely doesnít hurt.

This is still to my knowledge the best, actual scientifically conducted test for the lubricity of Diesel fuel additives.
Youíll notice that the best was soy based biofuel, but notice it was only 2% Bio, if you can find B10, itís much better than anything else for lubricity, much better.
Bugs? Extended storage time? Who knows.
Lubricity Additive Study Results - Diesel Place : Chevrolet and GMC Diesel Truck Forums

I had heard that the biodiesel had a very high detergent capability so you have to be careful adding it to a system full of gunk because it will essentially pull it all into solution and clog your filters until you get it all out. Don't have a good source for that though. Thanks for the backup on the concept that the military has extensively tested the need for additives and determined they are required in at least one use case....the whole "no one really knows" thing is very frustrating to hear.

Compass790 09-09-2019 16:45

Re: Fuel additives? Yes or no
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by a64pilot (Post 2973147)
Well, yes and no.
Winter Diesel, #1 Diesel is Kerosene, it may be blended with #2 Diesel or it can be straight Kerosene, so Winter Diesel and jet fuel are nearly identical, jet fuel is more pure, more highly refined and more regulated / tested etc.
jet-A is pretty much just a pure, highly refined kerosene, if you have kerosene heaters, run jet in them, it burns clean and few fumes.
Jet-A+ has Prist or similar blended in, Prist containing fuel is required for all at least Army aircraft, itís an anti icing / anti microbial additive.
Only a foolish person runs fuel without an anti microbial additive, you will get bit one day, itís not the 70ís anymore.
Jet fuel has when compared to ULSD, extremely high sulphur content, extremely high.

Then a question Iíve had and never gotten a decent answer to, is ULSD a replacement for #2 Diesel, meaning is it considered #2 Diesel, or is #2 Diesel just a outdated term?

Finally two stroke oil isnít a good lubricity additive, but if you donít have a Diesel with fancy catalysts etc., it likely doesnít hurt.

This is still to my knowledge the best, actual scientifically conducted test for the lubricity of Diesel fuel additives.
Youíll notice that the best was soy based biofuel, but notice it was only 2% Bio, if you can find B10, itís much better than anything else for lubricity, much better.
Bugs? Extended storage time? Who knows.
Lubricity Additive Study Results - Diesel Place : Chevrolet and GMC Diesel Truck Forums

Thanks for posting this study. Pity they didn't test the diesel as it comes out of the pump to compare to the dry sample. I would have thought that would be a basic step.
Bit of a worry their claim that the stuff that comes out of the pump is often inadequately treated but good that biodiesel is the best.

thinwater 09-09-2019 17:45

Re: Fuel additives? Yes or no
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sailorboy1 (Post 2973059)
you mean like fuel "stabilizers" that don't stabilizer anything :facepalm:


What do you mean? You have not explained.
  • What about the fuel or gasoline changed?
  • What was the fuel system problem?
  • What were the storage conditions?
  • How long?
  • What product?

a64pilot 09-09-2019 17:58

Re: Fuel additives? Yes or no
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Compass790 (Post 2973200)
Thanks for posting this study. Pity they didn't test the diesel as it comes out of the pump to compare to the dry sample. I would have thought that would be a basic step.

Bit of a worry their claim that the stuff that comes out of the pump is often inadequately treated but good that biodiesel is the best.



Iíd have to re-read it, but Iím relatively certain that they would have had to test the fuel as it came out of the pump, and use the same identical fuel for all the additives, the fuel with nothing surely was the baseline.

a64pilot 09-09-2019 18:04

Re: Fuel additives? Yes or no
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Compass790 (Post 2973200)
Thanks for posting this study. Pity they didn't test the diesel as it comes out of the pump to compare to the dry sample. I would have thought that would be a basic step.

Bit of a worry their claim that the stuff that comes out of the pump is often inadequately treated but good that biodiesel is the best.



That was years ago, I had a 2001 Duramax truck and was on that forum for years.
Just like when unleaded fuel came out there were a great many that forecasted doom, all our valves, especially exhaust valves were soon going to be toast, cause any mechanic worth their salt knew the lead was required to cushion and cool valves.

Well, itís been almost 50 years I guess and low and behold unleaded fuel has turned out to make engines last far longer, not ruin them as many first though. Yes, Iím familiar with Stellite valve seats and sodium filled valves.
Iím not saying that maybe the worry about reduced lubricity may be unfounded in ULSD, but maybe itís not going to kill Diesel fuel injection systems like we feared. Iíve not heard of older OTR trucks dropping like flies with bad fuel pumps, but maybe they did / are?

Compass790 09-09-2019 18:18

Re: Fuel additives? Yes or no
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by a64pilot (Post 2973252)
Iíd have to re-read it, but Iím relatively certain that they would have had to test the fuel as it came out of the pump, and use the same identical fuel for all the additives, the fuel with nothing surely was the baseline.

According to my reading of it they used the untreated dry fuel for the test & then added the additives.
They did not test the fuel as it comes out of the pump with the additives which I found strange.
They did give a figure for the pump fuel wear test standard

Compass790 09-09-2019 18:23

Re: Fuel additives? Yes or no
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by a64pilot (Post 2973257)
That was years ago, I had a 2001 Duramax truck and was on that forum for years.
Just like when unleaded fuel came out there were a great many that forecasted doom, all our valves, especially exhaust valves were soon going to be toast, cause any mechanic worth their salt knew the lead was required to cushion and cool valves.

Well, itís been almost 50 years I guess and low and behold unleaded fuel has turned out to make engines last far longer, not ruin them as many first though. Yes, Iím familiar with Stellite valve seats and sodium filled valves.
Iím not saying that maybe the worry about reduced lubricity may be unfounded in ULSD, but maybe itís not going to kill Diesel fuel injection systems like we feared. Iíve not heard of older OTR trucks dropping like flies with bad fuel pumps, but maybe they did / are?

Yes I'm not worried that ULSD is going to destroy our YSM8 anytime soon but just curious. I don't use any fuel additives because I'm cheap & I believe rightly or wrongly that maintaining the o-ring on your fuel fill cap & having filters is the best thing you can do for your fuel

sdowney717 09-09-2019 18:32

Re: Fuel additives? Yes or no
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dean Paul (Post 2971398)
Some comments about fuel additives..Inboard gas, Palmer P60...use about 4 gallons per season.

Each fall I add Phasor 3, Stabil, and Startron. Periodically add lead substitute for valve health. All gasoline added in is non ethanol....fill each fall.

While it seems that many additives are excessive...and they may be cumulative...seems to work for me.

Thoughts?

Dean

If you change your fuel tank design to be sealed like your car, you wont need fuel additives. I have twin 150 gallon tanks. I am on the 3rd year with one tank, I tend to keep about 50 gallons in the tank.

What i mean is use the Perko VPR fuel cap on a vented Perko fuel fill, and an Attwood fuel demand valve on the tank output at the tank fuel line attachement.

The tank vent runs to the fuel fill
The VPR cap seals the tank from air unless a pressure diiferential of 1 psi forms.
The fuel demand valve refuses to pass fuel unless a suction exists on the fuel line drawn by the fuel pump.

This keeps the fuel very fresh, mostly sealed from humid air most of the time, like any normal car does today..

I also put a Perko anti-wellback one way valve in the fuel fill hose, prevents fuel from slamming back up at you when filling your boat, if it is wavy.

All this works very well, and solved a lot of fuel age and water issues with gasoline.


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