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-   -   Collision Avoidance, Cones of Uncertainty, and Appropriate CPA (https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f90/collision-avoidance-cones-of-uncertainty-and-appropriate-cpa-189919.html)

Pete7 25-11-2017 05:10

Re: Collision Avoidance, Cones of Uncertainty, and Appropriate CPA
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by StuM (Post 2524615)
As I see it, if an buoy is "anchored" and you are attached to the buoy by a cable, you are also "at anchor"/

You could even display an anchoring ball to tell everyone.

Pete

carstenb 25-11-2017 05:14

Re: Collision Avoidance, Cones of Uncertainty, and Appropriate CPA
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pete7 (Post 2524618)
You could even display an anchoring ball to tell everyone.

Pete

yes you could - but here in the US (where we've been sailing the past 7 months) anchor balls are such a rare sight that I'm b eginning to think there must be a lucrative business opportunity in it somewhere:biggrin:

nigel1 25-11-2017 10:22

Re: Collision Avoidance, Cones of Uncertainty, and Appropriate CPA
 
Juho, your "motor assisted anchoring" is correctly termed Dynamic Positioning, whereby main engines, rudders, thrusters, combined with sophisticated DGPS and motions sensors combine to keep a vessel stationary, or to be precisely moved along a track.
Most vessels when operating in this mode will be considered RAM, certainly not at anchor. By the way, the system is very expensive, and induces a lot of wear and tear in the propulsion system and thrusters.

Stu Jackson 25-11-2017 10:49

Re: Collision Avoidance, Cones of Uncertainty, and Appropriate CPA
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by carstenb (Post 2524620)
yes you could - but here in the US (where we've been sailing the past 7 months) anchor balls are such a rare sight that I'm b eginning to think there must be a lucrative business opportunity in it somewhere:biggrin:

Alon with Rod's "common sense" approach, there a number of things certain yachtsmen neglect to do. I've seen boaters running at night in protected waters using tricolors AND deck lights, for example. When I mentioned it to one skipper he got mad at me!

Ever try driving in Boston or Miami? The turn signals on ALL cars seem to have mysteriously stopped working!!!:facepalm::banghead::biggrin::biggrin::b iggrin:

Fiveslide 25-11-2017 11:00

Re: Collision Avoidance, Cones of Uncertainty, and Appropriate CPA
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Stu Jackson (Post 2524773)
I've seen boaters running at night in protected waters using tricolors AND deck lights, for example.

I live on a lake. Did you know most pontoon boats now come with headlights? The main channel looks like a freeway. You would think headlights would make it easier to tell which way they are going, it really doesn't, I'd prefer to look at proper nav lights.

One of my neighbors has them but he only uses them when docking, bless him.

ramblinrod 25-11-2017 11:52

Re: Collision Avoidance, Cones of Uncertainty, and Appropriate CPA
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Stu Jackson (Post 2524773)
Alon with Rod's "common sense" approach, there a number of things certain yachtsmen neglect to do. I've seen boaters running at night in protected waters using tricolors AND deck lights, for example. When I mentioned it to one skipper he got mad at me!

Ever try driving in Boston or Miami? The turn signals on ALL cars seem to have mysteriously stopped working!!!:facepalm::banghead::biggrin::biggrin::b iggrin:

Many boats have masthead trilights connected to the same breaker or fuse panel switch as the deck mounted running lights, so the skipper has no choice but to have all on if any are on (without wiring mods).

I don't believe this is an infraction is it?

(Colregs does not normally prohibit a vessel from showing more lights than the prescribed, else every freighter in the Great Lakes is in violation when lit up like a Christmas tree.)

edit : Just looked it up.

(a)**** A sailing vessel underway shall exhibit:
(i)***** sidelights;
(ii)**** a sternlight.
(b)**** In a sailing vessel of less than 20 metres in length the lights prescribed in paragraph (a) of this Rule may be combined in one lantern carried at or near the top of the mast where it can best be seen.

(c)***** A sailing vessel underway may, in addition to the lights prescribed in paragraph (a) of this Rule, exhibit at or near the top of the mast, where they can best be seen, two all-round lights in a vertical line, the upper being red and the lower green, but these lights shall not be exhibited in conjunction with the combined lantern permitted by paragraph (b) of this Rule.

So it could be interpreted that one:

1. Must not combine vertical mast lights with a masthead trilight.
2. May include vertical lights with deck lights.
3. There are arguments for or against whether a trilight may be displayed at the same time as decklights, depending on ones bias and interpretation.

Personal Note - Some don't care to be told what they should or shouldn't do by someone with no authority and from whom they have not asked any advice.

conachair 25-11-2017 12:25

Re: Collision Avoidance, Cones of Uncertainty, and Appropriate CPA
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ramblinrod (Post 2524811)
3. There are arguments for or against whether a trilight may be displayed at the same time as decklights, depending on ones bias and interpretation.

There is no argument in the irpcs for displaying masthead tricolour and deck red/green/stern nav lights at the same time, nothing to do with bias or interpretation. You'll look like a trawler or a fishing vessel other than a trawler.

Not exactly high end colregs knowledge.

evm1024 25-11-2017 12:29

Re: Collision Avoidance, Cones of Uncertainty, and Appropriate CPA
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ramblinrod (Post 2524811)
Many boats have masthead trilights connected to the same breaker or fuse panel switch as the deck mounted running lights, so the skipper has no choice but to have all on if any are on (without wiring mods).

I don't believe this is an infraction is it?

(Colregs does not normally prohibit a vessel from showing more lights than the prescribed, else every freighter in the Great Lakes is in violation when lit up like a Christmas tree.)

Yes it is. It presents red over red, green over green and white over white.

Specifically red over red for a vessel NUC (Not under command - red over red the captain is dead). White over white could be towing or the fore and aft anchor lights of a large vessel.

As for no prohibition see rule 1c. While directly addressing additional lights cor convoys etc it states that additional lights "shall, so far as possible, be such that they cannot be mistaken for any light, shape or signal authorized elsewhere under these rules".

It is allowed for sailing vessels under sail to display normal navigation lights and a red over green masthead lights.

transmitterdan 25-11-2017 12:30

Collision Avoidance, Cones of Uncertainty, and Appropriate CPA
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ramblinrod (Post 2524811)
Many boats have masthead trilights connected to the same breaker or fuse panel switch as the deck mounted running lights, so the skipper has no choice but to have all on if any are on (without wiring mods).

I don't believe this is an infraction is it?


Yes, it it is an infraction. The lighting rules clearly exclude having both deck level and a masthead red/green lights on at the same time. No boat should have them wired to the same switch.

Stu Jackson 25-11-2017 12:39

Re: Collision Avoidance, Cones of Uncertainty, and Appropriate CPA
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ramblinrod (Post 2524811)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Personal Note - Some don't care to be told what they should or shouldn't do by someone with no authority and from whom they have not asked any advice.

I asked him, in a "Steady Hand" friendly manner: "Are you aware that both your running lights and tricolor lights are on?"

The expletives returned were not warranted.

His very nice Pacific Seacraft 34 or 37, which I had seen in its slip many times, indicated that the owner "most likely" would have been in a financial position to make a minor modification to his wiring to allow running either but not both. But I do not know personally what his financial statement looks like.:banghead:

Seeing this light combination in the Oakland Estuary was difficult for me to ascertain what kind of vessel was coming at me. The higher tricolor made it seem like a much bigger vessel and was confusing along with the deck sidelights. For a moment I felt it was downright dangerous, and there was a large vessel coming at me. I had been sailing that water for 35 years, day and night. There is a mix of large commercial containerships, large motor vessels, tugs, barges, and sailboats. This was at the end of the Lighted Boat Parade, with hundreds of mostly sailboats moving about. I had no trouble with all the rest of the boats' lighting.

His lighting didn't help identification, it hindered it.

evm1024 25-11-2017 12:39

Re: Collision Avoidance, Cones of Uncertainty, and Appropriate CPA
 
I see ships lit up at night but they have deck working lights lit. Often they are so bright that you cannot make out the navigation lights with out binoculars. But when looked at you can clearly see that they have only the required navigation lights lit.

Any master that violates navigational light rules is subject to fines. And ship involved in a collision with improper navigational lights lit will be found significantly at fault.

Any master that causes his shipping company to pay fines or to be liable for a collision will be out of a job fairly quickly.

Heck, in the case of a collision experts have been called in to examine the tungsten filament in the navigational lamps to state if they were on or off at the time of the collision.

evm1024 25-11-2017 12:50

Re: Collision Avoidance, Cones of Uncertainty, and Appropriate CPA
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Stu Jackson (Post 2524836)
I asked him, in a "Steady Hand" friendly manner: "Are you aware that both your running lights and tricolor lights are on?"

The expletives returned were not warranted.

SNIP!


This really shows the problem with self-taught, minimally taught, ans down right ignorant boaters. They depend on (what they thing is) common sense and get pissed off if anyone points out the error they are making.

No, I take that back - it is not that they are self-taught or minimally taught or even ignorant. The issue is their attitude and arrogance.

People with out the attitude do want to improve their abilities and understanding of any craft that they undertake.

People with attitude get all pissed off that anyone would tell them.

In the US and Canada there is the Power Squadron. They offer classes that cover a lot of this at a reasonable cost. But, taking a class is beneath many of the arrogant.

Canadian Power and Sail Squadrons - Escadrilles canadiennes de plaisance

Jim Cate 25-11-2017 13:00

Re: Collision Avoidance, Cones of Uncertainty, and Appropriate CPA
 
The tri-colour plus deck side light combination is often seen here in Australia as well, often in the corridor between Sydney and the Pittwter (about 15 miles for those not familiar with the area). There are lots of fairly inexperienced sailors in the area, many with large newish yachts, and they seem to think if a few lights are good, more must be better... just common sense, eh?

We've had this discussion here on CF a few times in the past, and it kinda scary how many folks passionately defend the incorrect usage.

And for Rod: can you tell us which production boats you have seen/worked upon that had the tricolour and deck lights wired to the same switch from the factory? Seems a gross error that should be brought to the attention of the builder.

Jim

Juho 25-11-2017 16:29

Re: Collision Avoidance, Cones of Uncertainty, and Appropriate CPA
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by nigel1 (Post 2524758)
Juho, your "motor assisted anchoring" is correctly termed Dynamic Positioning, whereby main engines, rudders, thrusters, combined with sophisticated DGPS and motions sensors combine to keep a vessel stationary, or to be precisely moved along a track.
Most vessels when operating in this mode will be considered RAM, certainly not at anchor. By the way, the system is very expensive, and induces a lot of wear and tear in the propulsion system and thrusters.

That sounds like a probable interpretation in court.

It seems that in order to use Dynamic Positioning to keep my boat in one place over the night, I'd need to both change the colregs and earn some more money. :smile:

I may need to abandon also the idea of connecting to a large ship at sea and start sleeping since I might also in that case be considered only RAM. :smile:

ramblinrod 27-11-2017 13:03

Re: Collision Avoidance, Cones of Uncertainty, and Appropriate CPA
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by evm1024 (Post 2524826)
Yes it is. It presents red over red, green over green and white over white.

Specifically red over red for a vessel NUC (Not under command - red over red the captain is dead). White over white could be towing or the fore and aft anchor lights of a large vessel.

As for no prohibition see rule 1c. While directly addressing additional lights cor convoys etc it states that additional lights "shall, so far as possible, be such that they cannot be mistaken for any light, shape or signal authorized elsewhere under these rules".

It is allowed for sailing vessels under sail to display normal navigation lights and a red over green masthead lights.

Well, and then there is a level of idealism somewhere under "ultimate".

Colregs permit the carrying of decklights and red and green vertical masthead lights on a sailboat simultaneously.

This can result in red over red and green over green.

Colregs specifically prohibit displaying the mast head vertical lights and a masthead combined light (trilight).

They do not specifically prohibit displaying decklights and a masthead combined light.

Would doing so fall under the "confusing" provision?

Well since a sailboat can show red over red and green over green in complete compliance, then the only issue is white over white.

A sailboat can easily show white over white, from something as simple as a cabin light through a port over a white stern light.

I see a plethora of white lights on lots of boats underway (and even at anchor), including large commercial vessels, which invariably include at least one white over white combination (beyond that required under Colregs).

Personally, I see so many boats with nav lights not working at all, when I encounter one showing both decklights and masthead trilights simultaneously, I don't have a problem with it at all.

On the contrary, if one set fails mid voyage (or between repairs), at least they will still be showing running lights.

I certainly wouldn't "scold" or "attempt to educate" a boater who displayed both simultaneously.


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