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powsmias 22-05-2017 13:17

Jordan Series Retrieval idea/question/overthunk it?
 
1 Attachment(s)
Installed bow pulpit, windlass w/capstan and bow roller last year. question is, left side of pulpit is wide open. was thinking to add a roller for a jordan drogue with large enough opening to accept all widths of it and maybe funnel down in size like with pvc pipe and reducing in size and take it to within six inches of the capstan to accept and retrieve the drogue. forcing it to compress through with no worries of catching on anything.. genuis? or do is my strain of meds better than others? please add some thoughts.. on paper i like it!
I should add that i went oversized on mantus so not sweating too much saving the left side for additional ground tackle.

UNCIVILIZED 22-05-2017 14:02

Re: Jordan Series Retrieval idea/question/overthunk it?
 
I'm curious to hear more

powsmias 22-05-2017 14:34

Re: Jordan Series Retrieval idea/question/overthunk it?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED (Post 2398174)
I'm curious to hear more

me too!! and just thinkin now running this "hawse pipe" down to the capstan and maybe requiring a wider capstan to accept the rode and cones if a problem with present capstan

estarzinger 22-05-2017 15:51

Re: Jordan Series Retrieval idea/question/overthunk it?
 
retrieve a series from the bow? are you setting it from the bow? or moving it from stern to bow only when you go to retrieve?

Setting from the bow is generally a bad idea.

moving from stern to bow is possible but going to be a bit tricky - I generally don't recommend it. But if you do that, just motor straight ahead and pull it in by hand, and yes a second roller would be great (also useful for other uses) but does not need anything more complex than that.

I have twice used electric winches/windlasses to retrieve, and neither went all that well.

When we tested drogues on steve dashew's boat we used an really LARGE electric stern winch to retrieve them. The series drogue burned it up.

On Hawk, we once also tried with our lewmar 3500 lb (oversized) windless, on bow and we took a retrieval line up the deck to it, and it would trip out (overheat sensor).

The loads peak when you start coming down waves (and decline as you go up the backsides). The peaks can be pretty high. . . . .depends on how long you wait for the storm to decline before retrieving. We tended to wait until winds dropped below 30ish and I was surprised it still tripped the windless but it did. But when you look at anchoring loads (lower than most people think) vs drogue loads (higher than most people think) it makes sense.

Everyone I know who uses series 'regularly' just develops a rhythm for getting it in over the stern - pull when going up back of wave, hold while going down front. It takes some time, but is sort of nice brainless work out in the cockpit after a storm.

conachair 22-05-2017 18:35

Re: Jordan Series Retrieval idea/question/overthunk it?
 
Might be of interest....
https://www.morganscloud.com/2017/05...series-drogue/

HankOnthewater 22-05-2017 19:30

Re: Jordan Series Retrieval idea/question/overthunk it?
 
Sorry, no experience with a drogue at all, but this provides some interesting reading:
Series Drogue, ocean survival
Sea Anchors | Victor Shane's Drag Device Data Base

powsmias 22-05-2017 23:07

Re: Jordan Series Retrieval idea/question/overthunk it?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by estarzinger (Post 2398261)
retrieve a series from the bow? are you setting it from the bow? or moving it from stern to bow only when you go to retrieve?

Setting from the bow is generally a bad idea.

moving from stern to bow is possible but going to be a bit tricky - I generally don't recommend it. But if you do that, just motor straight ahead and pull it in by hand, and yes a second roller would be great (also useful for other uses) but does not need anything more complex than that.

I have twice used electric winches/windlasses to retrieve, and neither went all that well.

When we tested drogues on steve dashew's boat we used an really LARGE electric stern winch to retrieve them. The series drogue burned it up.

On Hawk, we once also tried with our lewmar 3500 lb (oversized) windless, on bow and we took a retrieval line up the deck to it, and it would trip out (overheat sensor).

The loads peak when you start coming down waves (and decline as you go up the backsides). The peaks can be pretty high. . . . .depends on how long you wait for the storm to decline before retrieving. We tended to wait until winds dropped below 30ish and I was surprised it still tripped the windless but it did. But when you look at anchoring loads (lower than most people think) vs drogue loads (higher than most people think) it makes sense.

Everyone I know who uses series 'regularly' just develops a rhythm for getting it in over the stern - pull when going up back of wave, hold while going down front. It takes some time, but is sort of nice brainless work out in the cockpit after a storm.

Appreciate the response.. bow retrieval was only that. was just gonna walk it forward and winch it in but guess not now.. didn't have that trip the breaker in the windlass in my equation so glad i threw this out there.. thought this was gonna be a no brainer but now after reading and thinking about all that weight i guess i'll go for the workout and pull by hand.. thanks again

S/V Alchemy 23-05-2017 08:29

Re: Jordan Series Retrieval idea/question/overthunk it?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by conachair (Post 2398364)

Indeed. Best resource for this sort of thing. There's an article right now about a Southern Ocean sailor's experience with his Ocean Brake JSD.

powsmias 23-05-2017 09:09

Re: Jordan Series Retrieval idea/question/overthunk it?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by estarzinger (Post 2398261)
retrieve a series from the bow? are you setting it from the bow? or moving it from stern to bow only when you go to retrieve?

Setting from the bow is generally a bad idea.

moving from stern to bow is possible but going to be a bit tricky - I generally don't recommend it. But if you do that, just motor straight ahead and pull it in by hand, and yes a second roller would be great (also useful for other uses) but does not need anything more complex than that.

I have twice used electric winches/windlasses to retrieve, and neither went all that well.

When we tested drogues on steve dashew's boat we used an really LARGE electric stern winch to retrieve them. The series drogue burned it up.

On Hawk, we once also tried with our lewmar 3500 lb (oversized) windless, on bow and we took a retrieval line up the deck to it, and it would trip out (overheat sensor).

The loads peak when you start coming down waves (and decline as you go up the backsides). The peaks can be pretty high. . . . .depends on how long you wait for the storm to decline before retrieving. We tended to wait until winds dropped below 30ish and I was surprised it still tripped the windless but it did. But when you look at anchoring loads (lower than most people think) vs drogue loads (higher than most people think) it makes sense.

Everyone I know who uses series 'regularly' just develops a rhythm for getting it in over the stern - pull when going up back of wave, hold while going down front. It takes some time, but is sort of nice brainless work out in the cockpit after a storm.


Sorry to throw this wrench in the mix but here goes.. any thoughts on a float at the anchor end of the drogue? maybe 50 ft of 1/4 inch line down to anchor and that way retrieval is with the cones emptying instead of fighting all that weight? tested of course to ensure float can stay at the surface when things calm down.. appreciate the responses thanx

estarzinger 23-05-2017 09:43

Re: Jordan Series Retrieval idea/question/overthunk it?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by powsmias (Post 2398700)
Sorry to throw this wrench in the mix but here goes.. any thoughts on a float at the anchor end of the drogue? maybe 50 ft of 1/4 inch line down to anchor and that way retrieval is with the cones emptying instead of fighting all that weight? tested of course to ensure float can stay at the surface when things calm down.. appreciate the responses thanx


I know people have tried that, and the general reports have been negative.

But I have not personally tried it.

there is a set of factors here that I think many people overlook because they have not been their first hand. First, even when the winds are down to 30kts after a storm, the waves are still pretty 'bad' - motoring in and around them is not much fun - as you might have to do to get back to your buoy (a 'pick up line' back to the boat will tangle in the cones during use). Second you (and your crew) are generally pretty drained and not thinking all that well. So the very simplest maneuver possible is generally the best one. Third, maneuvering (either under power or sail) around a series drogue in the water in waves can be tricky - you dont want it wrapped around your rudder or prop.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
I dont mean to be a stick in the mud here. We have not tried this ourselves so I can't knock it with personal experience, and if you want to go out and give it a go by all means do and report back. We can only learn from it.

but from all the people who have actively use series (including ourselves), the retrieval approach they have after much independent trial and error has ended up pretty pretty similar. The only big difference I see is whether they use retrieval lines hitched to the drogue rode or pull the rode directly.

Dartanyon 23-05-2017 09:45

Re: Jordan Series Retrieval idea/question/overthunk it?
 
Feels a little like a thread hijack, but I was wondering about this too ...

What if one attached 7/64s amsteel to the trailing edge of the JSD, and ran it back to the boat when deployed. Make the retrieval line say 150% the length of the drogue, and weight it with ... fishing weights(?) to minimize the chance of it fouling. There has to be a reason this isn't the "go-to" solution, many smarter people than I have deployed their drogues, but I'd love to know why it's not. What am I (we) missing?


Quote:

Originally Posted by powsmias (Post 2398700)
Sorry to throw this wrench in the mix but here goes.. any thoughts on a float at the anchor end of the drogue? maybe 50 ft of 1/4 inch line down to anchor and that way retrieval is with the cones emptying instead of fighting all that weight? tested of course to ensure float can stay at the surface when things calm down.. appreciate the responses thanx


powsmias 23-05-2017 09:45

Re: Jordan Series Retrieval idea/question/overthunk it?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by estarzinger (Post 2398723)
I know people have tried that, and the general reports have been negative.

But I have not personally tried it.

there is a set of factors here that I think many people overlook because they have not been their first hand. First, even when the winds are down to 30kts after a storm, the waves are still pretty 'bad' - motoring in and around them is not much fun - as you might have to do to get back to your buoy (a 'pick up line' back to the boat will tangle in the cones during use). Second you (and your crew) are generally pretty drained and not thinking all that well. So the very simplest maneuver possible is generally the best one. Third, maneuvering (either under power or sail) around a series drogue in the water in waves can be tricky - you dont want it wrapped around your rudder or prop.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
I dont mean to be a stick in the mud here. We have not tried this ourselves so I can't knock it with personal experience, and if you want to go out and give it a go by all means do and report back. We can only learn from it.

but from all the people who have actively use series (including ourselves), the retrieval approach they have after much independent trial and error has ended up pretty pretty similar. The only big difference I see is whether they use retrieval lines hitched to the drogue rode or pull the rode directly.

thanx mister, wasn't lookin for the exercise to verify my theory so i'll take your post as gospel.. appreciate it

powsmias 23-05-2017 10:40

Re: Jordan Series Retrieval idea/question/overthunk it?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by S/V Alchemy (Post 2398656)
Indeed. Best resource for this sort of thing. There's an article right now about a Southern Ocean sailor's experience with his Ocean Brake JSD.

Thanks i'm an avid read of that site too and know it well.. that started me on all this about the drogue and trying to do it right since acquiring a used one last year also led me to post this thread up and lots of feedback i got on it
https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...is-154976.html

quandary 24-05-2017 05:13

Re: Jordan Series Retrieval idea/question/overthunk it?
 
I haven't actually tried it with my JSD but my plan is to send a trip line to the end of the drogue when I am ready to retrieve it so as to pull it in from the tail end ie without the drag of the cones. (I understand that a permanent trip line just gets so tangled around the drogue that it is useless.)
I have made a heavy ring about 200mm dia 5kg with a slit in it to allow it to slip over the drogue line (the ring has a toggle like a carabiner so it cannot slip off the line once on it.)
The idea is to tie a trip line to the ring, slip the ring over the drogue line and let the ring slide down the drogue line over all the cones to a hook (T) at the end of the drogue. One would then simply pull in the trip line and the drogue from the tail end, hopefully with much reduced effort. ( A refinement might be to use a trip line that floats to try and reduce the chance of it fouling the drogue while descending..the line would hopefully float above the drogue)

It might work?

estarzinger 24-05-2017 06:25

Re: Jordan Series Retrieval idea/question/overthunk it?
 
^^ interesting idea. I have never heard of anyone try it that way. Do let us know :)

A test I would be curious to have someone do - I am curious how much less drag a series has with reversed cones vs regular position - so someone with a series and a load cell (Thinwater :) ) please go out, run at 6 kts and pull your series in normal orientation and reverse orientation and report back :)

My suspicion is that while it will certainly will have less load in reverse, it will still be enough of a load to be a bit of a muscle job and may not be worth a lot of effort to switch it around. But I dont know and it would be good to know and they would be easy numbers to get.


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