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pcmm 25-12-2016 21:49

Re: Starting to plan for a Cruising Life
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kenomac (Post 2287344)
Another myth.

Even in the Med, there're many nice marinas that charge the same rate for cats and monohulls. Cats have two engines to service, but each one is used only half as much. Doing the engine service myself on our mono costs less than $100 per season. Most marinas in the US are older and can't accomodate cats, but elsewhere in the world, especially where Med mooring is common, cats can be moored just as easily. Anchoring costs are the same. :biggrin:

Not a myth at all, just reality. You have 2 engines = twice the cost for all maintenance items, and no they don't get used half as much, that's just false! Storage is calculated by square footage and a 45ft cat is going to be almost twice the width of a mono. Rigging is more expensive as its heavier for the same size boat, heavier blocks, etc. all just reality! You do 2 oil changes for each one I do. For the boat size you have more systems, cats just tend to. So more maintenance.

Hobie_ind 25-12-2016 23:13

Re: Starting to plan for a Cruising Life
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by pcmm (Post 2287702)
Not a myth at all, just reality. You have 2 engines = twice the cost for all maintenance items, and no they don't get used half as much, that's just false! Storage is calculated by square footage and a 45ft cat is going to be almost twice the width of a mono. Rigging is more expensive as its heavier for the same size boat, heavier blocks, etc. all just reality! You do 2 oil changes for each one I do. For the boat size you have more systems, cats just tend to. So more maintenance.

As with a lot of the debates here on CF....... this response seems to ignore the reality of........ It depends.

We've had this discussion numerous times in the Caribbean and South Pacific many times over sundowners and I certainly haven't heard anything to convince it's even close to double. It's a topic I'm interested in since I've often considered whether our next boat will be a cat.

Full time cruising, anchoring out almost all the time? If so, storage cost is basically irrelevant, plus a comparable cat is generally a bit shorter than a comparable mono. The marina i was just at had rates of about 1.5 times for cats. We've been at a few where the rates were 1.25. Never have I seen double. Mooring balls were rarely any more expensive than monos. Friends with cats hauling at yards we've been at weren't charged double for haulouts and yard rates. They varied between the same and about 1.25. I'm sure there are areas with marinas and yards that cost double, but it certainly shouldn't be a blanket statement.

I can't say that my engine represented more than 15-20% of my maintenance costs over the past 4 years. So even if it was double, and it wouldn't double the total maintenance costs.,,Our cat friends generally had much smaller engines and parts were cheaper, not half, but cheaper. Most did motor with only one engine most of the time except for maneuvering. A lot didn't have generators or run their engines for charging batteries as much as a lot of monos because of the acres of solar panels that are so easily put on cats! Comparing notes generally didn't indicate double the amount of anti-fouling needed (shallower hulls, keels etc). Spare parts carried were generally the same even though they had two. One starter, water pump, belts, etc, etc. Maybe a couple extra $20 filters. Same nav gear, wind instruments. fridge, stove, potable water pumps, hot water heater, charger/inverter, radios, AIS, radar, watermaker, heads (again...depends), windlass, anchors, anchor chain, etc. Generally the same number of winches to service, travellers, sheets, sails, etc. A friends 48' cat had the same size winches as our 53' mono. Halyards were the same size, but about 10-15' longer. Sails were a mixed bag. Larger Genoa/smaller main on the mono, smaller job, lather main on the cat. Quotes they had for new mains and Genoa didn't come out to double what friends on a 50' mono with a battened main were quoted for theirs. Maybe 125%. For our ketch, the quotes I got would have made it close to a wash.

More expensive, but double? I don't think it's even close to that, and please don't get the cat guys going on the resale value part of the equation...... you won't win. The market is speaking clearly on that one right now. The flip side is, there's some outstanding buys out there in monohull land right now!

Sorry. CF frustrates me sometimes......

aquadreams 25-12-2016 23:27

Re: Starting to plan for a Cruising Life
 
Hi BrianLara,

I'm working on my five year plan too and now about two years out. I've been learning all I can prior to purchase by using sailing schools for acquiring skills, chartering locally for day and weekend sailing here in San Francisco about 20-30 times a year, chartering weekly long trips once or twice a year, and going to boat shows. The chartering has helped me figure out what I want / don't want in a boat. Boats shows often have seminars on the cruising life, how to inspect and buy a boat, and more.

Other ideas I have are to become a sailing instructor locally and to get a six pack or captains license, and maybe be crew for a delivery, rally (the Baha-haha from San Diego to Cabo), or transpac race. You probably have options for similar there in Michigan.

I've also taken and recommend some seminars like the US Sailing Safety at Sea, where you get to deploy and climbing into a liferaft in full gear and play with flares and fire extinguishers.

One thing I don't see often discussed is medical emergency prepareness. I've taken first aid and CPR but for myself don't feel it's enough. So I might take an EMT certification course at a community college. Some might say this is overkill but I want to be able to handle typical situations like this - Two Afloat Sailing, Ep 8 - Medical Emergency. This is from an EMT couple that cruises. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvWibTyPvg8.

All this is just my opinion. As someone already said, you'll hear a lot from the buy small go now crowd. Do what's right for you and have fun on your journey!

Cheers,
Joe

StuM 26-12-2016 01:56

Re: Starting to plan for a Cruising Life
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by pcmm (Post 2287702)
Not a myth at all, just reality. You have 2 engines = twice the cost for all maintenance items, and no they don't get used half as much, that's just false!

So you know better than me how I use my engines? Wrong!

Quote:

Storage is calculated by square footage and a 45ft cat is going to be almost twice the width of a mono.
So you know how much I pay for marina fees and how they are calcuated? Wrong!

Quote:

Rigging is more expensive as its heavier for the same size boat, heavier blocks, etc. all just reality!
True, if by "the same sized boat", you mean boat length. My 43ft cat is not comparable to a 43ft mono in many other metrics either.

Quote:

You do 2 oil changes for each one I do.
Refer to the first point above!

Quote:

For the boat size you have more systems, cats just tend to. So more maintenance.
Refer to the second last point above.

Bulawayo 26-12-2016 02:49

Re: Starting to plan for a Cruising Life
 
Hi PCMM, I would be interested to understand the source of your information. It needs to be appreciated that you must compare like with like. If you compare a 40ft cat with a 40ft mono-hull then its likely the costs could (not definately) be higher for a cat, but then you are not doing an apples for apples comparison, are you?
Ive been a cat liveaboard since 1995 and have not experienced the matters you quote. Yes, we have two engines but, unless circumstances dictate it, only one motor is in use; its not a false statement, rather fact. The same applies with all my cat owning friends. We are only occassionally charged more for our beam - usually on haul out, which is rare as we usually park on a beach for maintenance (between tides).
I could go on and on, but at the end of the day these matters are clearly misunderstood by some people. I too used to be a mono-hull sailor and I 'knew' how unsafe catamarans were and how expensive they were to own. Then, I had an experience that changed my mind and have been a cat owner ever since - and am very happy with my choice.
Rather than turning this into yet another debate over mono vs cats, please appreciate that some folk prefer one over the other and both can be right. Please also understand that before commenting on costs of operating (not purchasing) that there are many influencing factors. There are still so many fallacies out there.




Quote:

Originally Posted by pcmm (Post 2287702)
Not a myth at all, just reality. You have 2 engines = twice the cost for all maintenance items, and no they don't get used half as much, that's just false! Storage is calculated by square footage and a 45ft cat is going to be almost twice the width of a mono. Rigging is more expensive as its heavier for the same size boat, heavier blocks, etc. all just reality! You do 2 oil changes for each one I do. For the boat size you have more systems, cats just tend to. So more maintenance.


Kenomac 26-12-2016 06:27

Re: Starting to plan for a Cruising Life
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by pcmm (Post 2287702)
Not a myth at all, just reality. You have 2 engines = twice the cost for all maintenance items, and no they don't get used half as much, that's just false! Storage is calculated by square footage and a 45ft cat is going to be almost twice the width of a mono. Rigging is more expensive as its heavier for the same size boat, heavier blocks, etc. all just reality! You do 2 oil changes for each one I do. For the boat size you have more systems, cats just tend to. So more maintenance.

All the cat owners we know, which is quite a few, only use one engine at a time when underway motoring. Two engines when docking. The cats may be twice as wide, but to compare comparable deck and cabin space to a monohull, the cat tends to be much shorter than a comparable monohull. We compared a 66ft Oyster to a 45ft Lagoon and Fountaine Pajot. Storage fees, cabin and deck space, maintenance fees etc.... all about the same. The size of a boat needs to be compared by square footage, not by the length.

But you can go on believing the myth if you like. :biggrin:

fred4936 26-12-2016 07:06

Re: Starting to plan for a Cruising Life
 
Hi all. When my wife and I decided we wanted to try the cruising life, we bought an old Tartan 27-2 as a practice boat. We have both sailed most of our lives, but not a lot of cruising. So we chose this boat to learn what we want and do not want, like and do not like, and just jumped in. We sailed on TNT ocea for the first time, off the south shore of Long Island, New York, and will expand upon that further. This boat I can easily singlehanded, and the costs are still reasonable. We converted to electric auxiliary power, which had worked well for us. In another year or so, we will be ready for THE boat, but we will know much more when we reach that point.

pcmm 26-12-2016 07:29

Re: Starting to plan for a Cruising Life
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kenomac (Post 2287818)
All the cat owners we know, which is quite a few, only use one engine at a time when underway motoring. Two engines when docking. The cats may be twice as wide, but to compare comparable deck and cabin space to a monohull, the cat tends to be much shorter than a comparable monohull. We compared a 66ft Oyster to a 45ft Lagoon and Fountaine Pajot. Storage fees, cabin and deck space, maintenance fees etc.... all about the same. The size of a boat needs to be compared by square footage, not by the length.

But you can go on believing the myth if you like. :biggrin:

Interesting argument, problem is people don't go looking at 65monos and compare them to 45ft cats! they compare a 45 mono to a 45 cat. People just don't compare things that way. They look at boats of the same length when doing the comparison. It's inaccurate I know but thats how people think. As far as the one engine thing. that's interesting. I've never run across that with Cat owners before, but what I have very often run across is that cats seem to motor a hell of a lot more than mono's even when the wind is good. Don't know why but that's consistent! (which to me negates the less engine use bit)

Anyway. What the OP really needs to do is take his time and figure out what he wants a Mono might be perfect for him a cat might be perfect for him. just big differences in price, availability of models to work up through. etc.

Van Der Beek 26-12-2016 09:32

Re: Starting to plan for a Cruising Life
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Hobie_ind (Post 2287715)
More expensive, but double? I don't think it's even close to that, and please don't get the cat guys going on the resale value part of the equation...... you won't win. The market is speaking clearly on that one right now.

Resell value all depends on what sailboat you have, on some boats you can almost get your money back. I don't know if this holds true with catamarans.

In any case. Some people prefer sailboats others prefer catamarans.

StuM 26-12-2016 14:14

Re: Starting to plan for a Cruising Life
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by pcmm (Post 2287842)
Interesting argument, problem is people don't go looking at 65monos and compare them to 45ft cats! they compare a 45 mono to a 45 cat. People just don't compare things that way. They look at boats of the same length when doing the comparison. It's inaccurate I know but thats how people think.

If by "people", you mean you do, then correct.

Quote:

As far as the one engine thing. that's interesting. I've never run across that with Cat owners before,
You obviously have very little knowledge of cats to back up your wild assertions then. Just to get you started, you'll find a pretty good consensus among many cat owners here:

https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...es-176373.html

Quote:

but what I have very often run across is that cats seem to motor a hell of a lot more than mono's even when the wind is good. Don't know why but that's consistent! (which to me negates the less engine use bit)
Another misconception that that's been done to death many times here on CF.

Take it here: https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...-a-148849.html

StuM 26-12-2016 14:18

Re: Starting to plan for a Cruising Life
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Van Der Beek (Post 2287893)
Resell value all depends on what sailboat you have, on some boats you can almost get your money back. I don't know if this holds true with catamarans.

In any case. Some people prefer sailboats others prefer catamarans.

And some prefer both, ours is both a catamaran and a sailboat.

Bulawayo 26-12-2016 14:41

Re: Starting to plan for a Cruising Life
 
Dear PCMM, .......what is the source of your information? I did ask before but there was no response. Where do you get your understanding from? Many people start their initiation with brokers, and many of these (granted, not all, depends upon their real life experience) shall advise exactly of the information your are reading here. I am aware of many people gleaning their knowledge from 'trusted sources' that have similarly spent their lives in an armchair parked under a large tree.
Again, any cat owner with a modicum of experience shall likewise share the same. There are a number of cat owners on this specific thread and you'll note that the information is consistent - so have a little faith in what is written. To my way of thinking there is no right or wrong when it comes to cat-vs-mono. I have already identified that I elected to make the change and I would not go back to a monohull - but that is my choice and I am aware of others that are dedicated to mono's.


[QUOTE=pcmm;2287842]Interesting argument, problem is people don't go looking at 65monos and compare them to 45ft cats! they compare a 45 mono to a 45 cat. People just don't compare things that way. They look at boats of the same length when doing the comparison. It's inaccurate I know but thats how people think. As far as the one engine thing. that's interesting. I've never run across that with Cat owners before, but what I have very often run across is that cats seem to motor a hell of a lot more than mono's even when the wind is good. Don't know why but that's consistent! (which to me negates the less engine use bit).

pcmm 26-12-2016 14:57

Re: Starting to plan for a Cruising Life
 
[QUOTE=Bulawayo;2288097]Dear PCMM, .......what is the source of your information? I did ask before but there was no response. Where do you get your understanding from? Many people start their initiation with brokers, and many of these (granted, not all, depends upon their real life experience) shall advise exactly of the information your are reading here. I am aware of many people gleaning their knowledge from 'trusted sources' that have similarly spent their lives in an armchair parked under a large tree.
Again, any cat owner with a modicum of experience shall likewise share the same. There are a number of cat owners on this specific thread and you'll note that the information is consistent - so have a little faith in what is written. To my way of thinking there is no right or wrong when it comes to cat-vs-mono. I have already identified that I elected to make the change and I would not go back to a monohull - but that is my choice and I am aware of others that are dedicated to mono's.


Quote:

Originally Posted by pcmm (Post 2287842)
Interesting argument, problem is people don't go looking at 65monos and compare them to 45ft cats! they compare a 45 mono to a 45 cat. People just don't compare things that way. They look at boats of the same length when doing the comparison. It's inaccurate I know but thats how people think. As far as the one engine thing. that's interesting. I've never run across that with Cat owners before, but what I have very often run across is that cats seem to motor a hell of a lot more than mono's even when the wind is good. Don't know why but that's consistent! (which to me negates the less engine use bit).

My sources are from a number of cat owners that I know ( granted I'm not a broker so don't know dozens. but the behaviours are all similar) As I knew them when some of them were shopping, not one of them said " i've been looking at 65ft monos but really like the 45ft cat better. its always more along the lines of "this leopard 45 has far more room than the Hunter 45" as an example.

Unless they are motoring really long distances, most seem to default to using 2 motors when motoring. maintenance is just plain math, you can't get away from it. 2 set of filters 2 oil changes, heavier rigging than s similar sized Mono, heavier hardware ( to handle the higher loads that not heeling creates) the math is just not arguable. Cats are great boats, you just have to understand that for a similar sized mono, cat expenses for running and maintenance will be higher.

Van Der Beek 26-12-2016 15:16

Re: Starting to plan for a Cruising Life
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by StuM (Post 2288083)
And some prefer both, ours is both a catamaran and a sailboat.

No see it isn't. It is either a sailboat or a catamaran. In you case a catamaran, also known as a glorified raft with sail on. :biggrin:

I know what a sailboat looks like just like a know what a catamaran looks like, and a trimaran. :smile:

Bulawayo 26-12-2016 16:23

Re: Starting to plan for a Cruising Life
 
Then I am going to be blunt .....you are writing utter nonsense. Stu has already commented on the points you are repeating - and he is correct. I would suggest that you learn from what has been written. I note you have posted no information about yourself either. It is pretty easy to deduce fact from fiction.

[QUOTE=pcmm;2288108]
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bulawayo (Post 2288097)
Dear PCMM, .......what is the source of your information? I did ask before but there was no response. Where do you get your understanding from? Many people start their initiation with brokers, and many of these (granted, not all, depends upon their real life experience) shall advise exactly of the information your are reading here. I am aware of many people gleaning their knowledge from 'trusted sources' that have similarly spent their lives in an armchair parked under a large tree.
Again, any cat owner with a modicum of experience shall likewise share the same. There are a number of cat owners on this specific thread and you'll note that the information is consistent - so have a little faith in what is written. To my way of thinking there is no right or wrong when it comes to cat-vs-mono. I have already identified that I elected to make the change and I would not go back to a monohull - but that is my choice and I am aware of others that are dedicated to mono's.




My sources are from a number of cat owners that I know ( granted I'm not a broker so don't know dozens. but the behaviours are all similar) As I knew them when some of them were shopping, not one of them said " i've been looking at 65ft monos but really like the 45ft cat better. its always more along the lines of "this leopard 45 has far more room than the Hunter 45" as an example.

Unless they are motoring really long distances, most seem to default to using 2 motors when motoring. maintenance is just plain math, you can't get away from it. 2 set of filters 2 oil changes, heavier rigging than s similar sized Mono, heavier hardware ( to handle the higher loads that not heeling creates) the math is just not arguable. Cats are great boats, you just have to understand that for a similar sized mono, cat expenses for running and maintenance will be higher.



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