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-   -   400: Dead run on Lagoon 400 (https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f139/dead-run-on-lagoon-400-a-171171.html)

Juch 16-08-2016 03:50

Dead run on Lagoon 400
 
In the owners manual of the Lagoon 400 it says :
"- Do not fall off more than 150 to the apparent wind"

Is this just a typical manufacturing "better give safe guidance" or is it really ill advised to dead run on a Lagoon 400 in 15-20knots conditions (or any other conditions)?
How would you go about putting in a preventer, given the height of the boom?

arsenelupiga 16-08-2016 05:06

Re: Dead run on Lagoon 400
 
shrouds are in the way, so best option i found is to take 1 reef in main, or 2 if conditions stronger. Then sail can be moved on side more, especially second reef.

But often, due to laziness, or sea too confused, or both, just use jib attached to cleat when dead downwind. Or screecher only, or spi only.

I will have to buy new jib soon, so will have option to deploy 2 jibs, which is 58m2 DDW, fully reefable.

Juch 16-08-2016 05:51

Re: Dead run on Lagoon 400
 
HI Arsene,

Thanks for your response, are you saying that in your experience the Lagoon 400 handles dead runs well, no safety concerns involved? And that the advice of the owners manual is erroring too much on the side of caution?

But if I do so, you would advise to do it on Jib/Genoa only? (no Spin available on the charter boat I think)

UNCIVILIZED 16-08-2016 09:10

Re: Dead run on Lagoon 400
 
The probable reason for that statement on wind angles, has both to do with Polars/VMG, & minimizing chafe on the main. As usually when sailing DDW, your VMG is lower than if you sail using gybing angles. Which you can see via your Polars.
The bit about chafe on the main is fairly obvious.

As to preventers & there rigging, it's covered in depth here https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ml#post2042397

Scottster 16-08-2016 10:33

Re: Dead run on Lagoon 400
 
1 Attachment(s)
I use a Barber Haul on my jib connected to the mooring cleat mid ship to hold the foresail out at a better angle to the wind.
The main gets reefed then let out to the shrouds
Failing that up goes one of the spinnakers.
We will run our spinnakers to 20 knots, my wind alarm is set at 20 and if it sounds than back to the white sails and downwind jibes to make a strong VMG.Attachment 129669


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meirriba 18-08-2016 05:10

Re: Dead run on Lagoon 400
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Scottster (Post 2190719)
I use a Barber Haul on my jib connected to the mooring cleat mid ship to hold the foresail out at a better angle to the wind.
The main gets reefed then let out to the shrouds
Failing that up goes one of the spinnakers.
We will run our spinnakers to 20 knots, my wind alarm is set at 20 and if it sounds than back to the white sails and downwind jibes to make a strong VMG.Attachment 129669


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum

While the above is logical, I suspect that even with a spinnaker it would be better VMG tacking downwind than DDW run. We have an asymmetric on our L400 and tacking with it is certainly faster than running at 180deg. My experience with symmetrics on monohulls is similar. Of course the stronger the wind the lower you can sail.

barnakiel 18-08-2016 07:47

Re: Dead run on Lagoon 400
 
They run ddw very well. My clients sailed theirs from here to the West Indies all the way under spinnaker tied to the bows. Never less than 140 a day.

Cheers,
b.

boatman61 18-08-2016 08:13

Re: Dead run on Lagoon 400
 
Running DDW...???
Never bother with the main.. an extra knot or so's not worth the aggravation.:biggrin:
Spinnaker or jib just off DDW enough to stop the leech luffing.. can't be assed with preventers and all that stuff.. mainsails are for upwind as far as I'm concerned..:thumb:

barnakiel 18-08-2016 08:35

Re: Dead run on Lagoon 400
 
How do you fuse a sheet on a spinnaker when you sail a cat ddw?

b.

meirriba 18-08-2016 08:50

Re: Dead run on Lagoon 400
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by barnakiel (Post 2191994)
They run ddw very well. My clients sailed theirs from here to the West Indies all the way under spinnaker tied to the bows. Never less than 140 a day.

Cheers,
b.

Certainly it works and moreover for a crossing with trade winds it is also hassle free. Just set and forget. On the other hand, if you want to play and adjust, I still suspect that tacking downwind is faster. So it comes down to what style of sailing you prefer and what type of crew you have.
In 2003, I skippered a Beneteau 42.3 in the ARC. We have sailed the last two weeks DDW under asymmetrical spinnaker (no mainsail). It was not the fastest but the most convenient. For a 10 days or so, we have been crossed every day at noon by an HR42 tacking downwind under only jib and mainsail doing the exact same VMG towards st. Lucia.

Scottster 18-08-2016 10:40

Re: Dead run on Lagoon 400
 
If I was in a race I would explore all the variables.
We are on a 10 year cruise, my race DNA is proven, my cruising DNA Is still in the works.
Set and forget is the new me, ( with a little trim here and there, and no other boat on the horizon,) LOL




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Juch 19-08-2016 01:09

Re: Dead run on Lagoon 400
 
Thank you all for sharing your views.

rabbi 19-08-2016 04:28

Re: Dead run on Lagoon 400
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED (Post 2190644)
The probable reason for that statement on wind angles, has both to do with Polars/VMG, & minimizing chafe on the main. As usually when sailing DDW, your VMG is lower than if you sail using gybing angles. Which you can see via your Polars.

VMG may be lower but the boat movement is much smoother on DDW course when compared to gybing, at least in some wind and fully developed seas. So I prefer DDW.

I Just bring it out as much as posisble without chafe on the shrouds. the genoa on the other side, possibly sheeted to a cleat to get it further out than possible with the normal sheting.


for long DDW passages in the trades like transat I'd prefer two similar sized genoas on one roller furler, without the main. Plus maybe a Spi for nice daytim weather.

ObiWanSand 19-08-2016 12:20

Re: Dead run on Lagoon 400
 
I read in Multihulls world about an australian couple sailing their Helia 44 on a transat. They claimed something like; "Once we hit the trades, we hoisted our parasailor and 14 days later we lowered it again in the caribian seas. We used it day and night, and just eased out on the sheets to let it fly higher whenever the squalls came. Worked like a charm!"

That was not a verbatim quote, but to me that was the gist of their story. Don't think they even hoisted the main...

rabbi 19-08-2016 14:59

Re: Dead run on Lagoon 400
 
when we did our trans atlantic (Feb 2011, Lagoon 410, Cap verdes to the Grenadines) we had "trade winds" from 3 knots to 30 knots. On most of the days (and nights!) we had squalls around 35kn, but often gusting to the 40s.

So for us a parasailor would not have been something to set and forget. during squalls a parasailor would certainly result in some damage.

The double genoa setup was much easier to reef / drop in a squall than any spinnaker but of course we lost a few hours or maybe a day over this two week passage. But than I'm not in a hurry, I just want to make decent progress without breaking anything.

A spinnaker is nice but only in stable conditions.


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