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-   -   A down played failed survey (https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f47/a-down-played-failed-survey-155416.html)

rkjbnz 30-10-2015 05:33

A down played failed survey
 
Well I have just been through my first failed survey.

Hull and liner separation near the keel bolts and mast step. Pretty major structural issues according to the surveyor who said the manufacturer needs to be contacted in order to know how to fix it properly.

Unfortunately it was rather down played by the broker, who got another opinion from someone he knew who said bog and fibre glass is all it needs.

I sided with the surveyor and pulled out of the deal. Quite a bit money down the drain but feel I dodge a bullet. Perhaps I'm overreacting but I'm a little shocked that there was still pressure to buy this even though there was this (how it was put to me by the surveyor) major issue, he sounded annoyed at me that I was pulling out, even said that I'm going to have this problem with any production boat on the market. Surely this is not the case?

It's a shame I really wanted to give these boats the benefit of the doubt after reading many topics/articles regarding similar faults.

I really do hope they fix it properly. I have a young family and if they fix it badly and sell it to another family I shudder to think.

Anyone else run into this kind of over the top persistence?

Rich


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Badsanta 30-10-2015 05:40

Re: A down played failed survey
 
Good job, its hard to walk away. But you did the right thing. You saved lots of money and time. If its a production problem, what boat was it? Thanks for sharing

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2hullvenus 30-10-2015 05:49

Re: A down played failed survey
 
There is no such thing as "failing" a survey.

You are going about it all wrong.

The survey is your best tool as a buyer.

That was a fairly simple fix (the broker is right).

You use a survey as a negotiating tool. In this case, you could have pointed to the "fatal structural defect" as something that would never "pass survey", and got like $10,000+ off the asking price of the boat, then did the $200 repair yourself.

Big mistake.

rkjbnz 30-10-2015 05:50

Re: A down played failed survey
 
Oceanis 50. I wasn't present at the survey so the surveyor had spoken to the broker about it. When I rang the broker I expected him to be sympathetic and understand that the deal was not likely to go through but he just wanted to get a second opinion and keep the sale going. Scary!


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rkjbnz 30-10-2015 05:55

Re: A down played failed survey
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by 2hullvenus (Post 1949687)
There is no such thing as "failing" a survey.

You are going about it all wrong.

The survey is your best tool as a buyer.

That was a fairly simple fix (the broker is right).

You use a survey as a negotiating tool. In this case, you could have pointed to the "fatal structural defect" as something that would never "pass survey", and got like $10,000+ off the asking price of the boat, then did the $200 repair yourself.

Big mistake.


So the broker is right and the surveyor is wrong?? Are you the broker?

This is not the kind of thing I want to muck around with. Plenty of other boats for sale.


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paulajayne 30-10-2015 06:22

Re: A down played failed survey
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rkjbnz (Post 1949689)
Oceanis 50. I wasn't present at the survey so the surveyor had spoken to the broker about it. When I rang the broker I expected him to be sympathetic and understand that the deal was not likely to go through but he just wanted to get a second opinion and keep the sale going. Scary!


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You paid for the survey and the surveyor had no right to speak to the broker about it without you permission.

Have words and perhaps a partial refund.

MarkJ 30-10-2015 06:29

Re: A down played failed survey
 
Rich,

You did the right thing walking away.

I am not a surveyor nor boat builder but I do own a beneteau 393.

Hull and liner seperation at the keel bolts means only ONE thing: a severe grounding where the keel has pushed back so hard its ripped part of the bottom of the boat.

Imho the reason why the broker is pissed off at you is he knows how hard it will be to sell.

Unless you are an absolute expert these type problems are not for the normal buyer.


Mark

Capt Phil 30-10-2015 06:30

Re: A down played failed survey
 
That is what you hire and pay a surveyor for! Too give you an unvarnished and truthful opinion of the seaworthiness and condition of the vessel. The broker is only interested in getting your hard earned cash regardless of what he/she might say.
You can always get firm bids on repairs and still do the deal if the seller adjusts the price and there are no other dings from the surveyor. Good luck in your search... Phil

a64pilot 30-10-2015 06:45

Re: A down played failed survey
 
Do what I did when my surveyor found a major structural problem on a 5 yr old production boat, thank him profusely and take him to lunch and you pay for it, because he may have saved your arse.

You would be surprised at how many buyers threat them as the bad guy for doing their job.
A good surveyors job is to show you why you do not want to buy that boat, not just put an OK on the deal.

SVTatia 30-10-2015 06:51

Re: A down played failed survey
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by 2hullvenus (Post 1949687)
There is no such thing as "failing" a survey.

You are going about it all wrong.

The survey is your best tool as a buyer.

That was a fairly simple fix (the broker is right).

You use a survey as a negotiating tool. In this case, you could have pointed to the "fatal structural defect" as something that would never "pass survey", and got like $10,000+ off the asking price of the boat, then did the $200 repair yourself.

Big mistake.

This so absurd! This statement is totally against anything I have ever learned about surveys.

But yes, this is not a failed survey....

This was a successful survey and a failed deal. The OP got his money's worth.

denverd0n 30-10-2015 06:57

Re: A down played failed survey
 
First off, the guy who said you could do a proper fix on this for $200 is completely out of his mind. This kind of thing is expensive to fix. VERY expensive!

Second, I like the comment by 2hullvenus. You can't think of a survey as a "pass"/"fail" sort of thing. The boat did not "fail" the survey. The survey revealed issues that you were not aware of. That is the purpose of a survey--to provide you with information. In that regard, the survey was an unmitigated success. It provided you with the information you needed to make a sound decision.

Third, paulajayne has a point. You paid for the survey. Why is the surveyor talking with the broker about it (and from the way you said it, it sounds like he talked to the broker BEFORE he talked to you). Was this surveyor recommended to you by the broker? Do they, perhaps, have an overly cozy relationship? You want your surveyor to be independent of the broker, working for you and you alone. I would consider the circumstances carefully, and ask myself if I really want to use this same surveyor in the future.

In the end, it sounds like you did the right thing, and had a successful survey that saved you from buying a lemon. Congratulations, and good luck in finding a better boat to buy.

hpeer 30-10-2015 07:10

Re: A down played failed survey
 
We walked from a boat after a survey. The boat would probably be fine for coastal sailing but we wanted a boat we were sure of, and we could count on for an Atlantiic crossing.

There was no fixing the issues. It had some dodgy welds in the hull, and the chain plates were buried behind lots of unremovable furniture. Inspecting them would have destroyed much of the value of the boat.

We walked and the boat sold at about the same price.

There were some hard feelings. The surveyor was very professional but sensitive to the impact of his comments. I pissed off a lot of people that day.

basssears 30-10-2015 07:23

Re: A down played failed survey
 
We walked away from a boat after a survey this spring and considered it just that, a successful survey. We spent travel money, days off from work and the cost of the survey and we still considered it a success because we dodged a boat that would have cost us a lot more.

This fall we found same model boat in much better condition that surveyed very well, so it just reinforced that there are lots of boats out there, if you walk away from one for any reason (your gut feeling or the survey) you're doing the smart thing... why try to fix some disaster when you can find another non-disaster boat?

Quote:

Originally Posted by SVTatia (Post 1949721)
This was a successful survey and a failed deal. The OP got his money's worth.


a64pilot 30-10-2015 07:24

Re: A down played failed survey
 
In my case the owner was there, and shocked, we found serious flaws with his boat that he didn't know of. He had bought the boat without a survey as it was nearly new than and was after all a Great Lakes, fresh water boat.
I felt sorry for him as his new boat was on the way, and his current boat suddenly wasn't worth what he had hoped.
From my shopping around there are more boats with serious "issues" than not, and surprisingly age has very little to do with it, I started looking at less than 5 yr old boats thinking that age the bugs would be worked out, but no problems yet.
Didn't turn out that way and I ended up spending less on a much older boat, but had zero "issues" except for some things like old head hoses that need replacing etc.

minaret 30-10-2015 07:38

Re: A down played failed survey
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rkjbnz (Post 1949679)
Well I have just been through my first failed survey.

Hull and liner separation near the keel bolts and mast step. Pretty major structural issues according to the surveyor who said the manufacturer needs to be contacted in order to know how to fix it properly.

Unfortunately it was rather down played by the broker, who got another opinion from someone he knew who said bog and fibre glass is all it needs.

I sided with the surveyor and pulled out of the deal. Quite a bit money down the drain but feel I dodge a bullet. Perhaps I'm overreacting but I'm a little shocked that there was still pressure to buy this even though there was this (how it was put to me by the surveyor) major issue, he sounded annoyed at me that I was pulling out, even said that I'm going to have this problem with any production boat on the market. Surely this is not the case?

It's a shame I really wanted to give these boats the benefit of the doubt after reading many topics/articles regarding similar faults.

I really do hope they fix it properly. I have a young family and if they fix it badly and sell it to another family I shudder to think.

Anyone else run into this kind of over the top persistence?

Rich


Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum



You really dodged a bullet. Hull/liner bond issues are common in these boats, but very difficult to detect. I'd use the same surveyor again in future. I'd also stop looking at boats with a full liner. The last one I fixed cost more like 20k than $200.


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