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-   -   Single Men Living Aboard and Cruising... an honest look. (https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f74/single-men-living-aboard-and-cruising-an-honest-look-152569.html)

daletournier 23-10-2017 20:45

Re: Single Men Living Aboard and Cruising... an honest look.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Exile (Post 2504573)
Yes, but these recent articles and the data they rely on don't necessarily support the conclusion that any such pay gap is on account of gender discrimination. There are other factors that are in play, most notably that many more women than men opt to forego years of career advancement & earnings in order to raise children. This otherwise indispensable contribution to society often results in negative financial consequences as compared to men.

Hi Exile, you brought this up twice now, I've also unsuccessfully tried to draw attention to "is it prejudice based on gender" which I don't believe it is.

It simply gets ignored?

There's no doubt that anyone out of the workforce for an extended period of time (in this case women opting to be mothers) effects what one earns. Yet what I'm hearing here is women earn less based on gender discrimination.

White men get paided more because they are "white and male"?

redhead 23-10-2017 20:49

Re: Single Men Living Aboard and Cruising... an honest look.
 
I've been reading this never ending thread and am surprised at what seems to be an, if not majority opinion, at least one that is disturbingly widespread.

I'm not one to share too much personal information, but just to give you a picture. My husband and I have been married for over 20 years, the second time around for both of us. I was married briefly (very briefly) in my teens and it ended pretty terribly. I never wanted to go down that road again and so for the next 19 years I remained legally single, although there were some memorable relationships along the way. My career, although unplanned was surprisingly successful. It seems I had a knack for the jobs I went after. Being single and childless I was able to travel and relocate in order to rise, and I did. Always having fun. I met my husband when he came to the house to fix the plumbing (yes, I've heard all the jokes). Eight months after meeting we got married.

Now I was the dreamer of all things sailing and he was the sailor. We had that in common from day one. I had the house, the insurance, the 401K, the expense account. He had a business that he had built up for 25 years (now over 40) and was sometimes flush with what seemed like obscene amounts of cash, sometimes not so much.

Now we are on a boat 3000 miles from his hometown and business. I am a gypsy on my dreamboat and together we fix it up. My retirement is funding most of what we're doing and admittedly, that bothers him. I spent my career building up to this moment and he was just keeping his business going and so didn't pay too much attention to things like retirement. But remember, this is my dream - he would have been happy staying in New York.

Although it doesn't bother me, it does him. In the beginning we thought it would tear us apart. We had the divorce discussion a couple of times but it was more like feeling the knife's edge. Now he travels back to NY 2 or 3 times a year to do some work for old customers and comes back with however much it takes to make him feel better. I don't blame him, money is power and if we don't accept that fact we would be lying. He's much happier with his own money and I'll put up with his absense if it means that while he's here he is happy.

I will put up with a lot if he is happy. His respect and laughter delight me. I unashamedly have a crush on my husband.

All that being said, I have met many women in my life and the ones that are being described are well in the minority. I may like them or dislike them, but they're not vultures, or conniving bitches scheming to ruin the next man's life. Where the hell are you finding all these creepy women?

So at long last here's my question: If there is this much mistrust and contempt for women, why on earth would you want one on your boat?

double u 23-10-2017 22:55

Re: Single Men Living Aboard and Cruising... an honest look.
 
"Where the hell are you finding all these creepy women?"
...maybe they find them in the dark places they themselves inhabit...& they only get what they deserve!
how did one of your better presidents put it:
"...don't ask what your relationship/lady can do for you, ask what you can do for your relationship/lady"

Exile 23-10-2017 23:13

Re: Single Men Living Aboard and Cruising... an honest look.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by redhead (Post 2505154)
All that being said, I have met many women in my life and the ones that are being described are well in the minority. I may like them or dislike them, but they're not vultures, or conniving bitches scheming to ruin the next man's life. Where the hell are you finding all these creepy women?

So at long last here's my question: If there is this much mistrust and contempt for women, why on earth would you want one on your boat?

Speaking only for myself, the short answer is that I wouldn't. But I've never been in a relationship with a woman anywhere close to a vulture or a creep, or a scheming conniving b***h out to ruin me as you put it. I wouldn't even call them gold diggers for that matter, although that's how it panned out. Instead, I found a few who I eventually learned had a clear sense of entitlement, and as time went on (months not years), it was simply expected that I pay for everything we did as a couple, that I supplement their income to help pay for their personal needs, and that I was somehow responsible for their insecurities over what I guess was some sense of power imbalance they felt (or whatever, who knows??).

So why did I opt to do it? Well, I tried to tell myself that maybe their expectations were consistent with the way they were raised, or maybe how other men had treated them in previous relationships. Ok, so why did I opt to stay with them? Maybe because, as you put it, "I will put up with a lot if she is happy. His Her respect and laughter delighted me. I unashamedly have had a crush on my husband girlfriend." Ultimately breaking it off had little to do with the money, and everything to do with tiring of this attitude of "expecting everything and appreciating little," along with the resentment over our respective financial positions that (oddly) seemed to accompany it. It's never as clear when you're living through it as it often becomes in hindsight, and sometimes we're pretty good at deluding ourselves about someone we care about.

I wouldn't doubt that this attitude is the minority as you say, and of course hope you're right. But there seems to be enough of it out there to make men (and maybe some women) who don't necessarily have a generalized "mistrust and contempt" rather wary. I can't figure out whether these attitudes come from some old-fashioned idea that the man is expected to be the breadwinner, a generalized sense of common victimization over actual or perceived gender-based pay gaps, or maybe just opportunistic, but I do know it rubs me the wrong way and so I need to avoid it. I have no problem footing the bill if that's what the practicalities require, but there has to be some give & take.

JPA Cate 23-10-2017 23:39

Re: Single Men Living Aboard and Cruising... an honest look.
 
I Googled and picked the first stats I came up with, from pewresearch:Racial, gender wage gaps persist in U.S. despite some progress | Pew Research Center There were other responses that I did not check.

The following was taken from a chart of median hourly earnings:

I was surprised, because white men's earnings are topped by Asian men's, which are 117% of white men's. Black men earn 73 % of white men; and Hispanics, 69%.

For Women, the Asian women earn 87% of white men; white women, 82%, Black, 65%, and Hispanic 58 %.

So, as to white people, yes, white men earn more than white women, and this has been true for a very long time. I remember reading about it in the mid-fifties.

Ann

StuM 23-10-2017 23:54

Re: Single Men Living Aboard and Cruising... an honest look.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JPA Cate (Post 2505186)
I Googled and picked the first stats I came up with, from pewresearch:Racial, gender wage gaps persist in U.S. despite some progress | Pew Research Center There were other responses that I did not check.

The following was taken from a chart of median hourly earnings:

I was surprised, because white men's earnings are topped by Asian men's, which are 117% of white men's. Black men earn 73 % of white men; and Hispanics, 69%.

For Women, the Asian women earn 87% of white men; white women, 82%, Black, 65%, and Hispanic 58 %.

So, as to white people, yes, white men earn more than white women, and this has been true for a very long time. I remember reading about it in the mid-fifties.

Ann

From the same source:
What contributes to these persistent wage gaps? Research shows that a majority of each of these gaps can be explained by differences in education, labor force experience, occupation or industry and other measurable factors.

double u 24-10-2017 00:15

Re: Single Men Living Aboard and Cruising... an honest look.
 
"differences in education"- don't know about the US of A, but around here average female education level is higher than male (university degrees, highschool, ...), & still there is the pay-gap

Exile 24-10-2017 00:30

Re: Single Men Living Aboard and Cruising... an honest look.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JPA Cate (Post 2505186)
I Googled and picked the first stats I came up with, from pewresearch:Racial, gender wage gaps persist in U.S. despite some progress | Pew Research Center There were other responses that I did not check.

The following was taken from a chart of median hourly earnings:

I was surprised, because white men's earnings are topped by Asian men's, which are 117% of white men's. Black men earn 73 % of white men; and Hispanics, 69%.

For Women, the Asian women earn 87% of white men; white women, 82%, Black, 65%, and Hispanic 58 %.

So, as to white people, yes, white men earn more than white women, and this has been true for a very long time. I remember reading about it in the mid-fifties.

Ann

Quote:

Originally Posted by StuM (Post 2505189)
From the same source:
What contributes to these persistent wage gaps? Research shows that a majority of each of these gaps can be explained by differences in education, labor force experience, occupation or industry and other measurable factors.

Add'l stats from the same source indicate that approx. 25% of women attribute at least some of their pay gap with men to gender discrimination, but it doesn't explain why and doesn't purport to be based on any measurable factors.

I don't understand why any of this is all that surprising, and it doesn't show how much the gap may or may not have progressed since the 1950's. But more to the point, what does this have to do with how a cruising couple handles their finances when there's a disparity between them? :confused: Is any particular woman necessarily entitled to support from a man solely on account of a pay gap between all women & men?? I'm not understanding the connection.

Exile 24-10-2017 00:32

Re: Single Men Living Aboard and Cruising... an honest look.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by double u (Post 2505194)
"differences in education"- don't know about the US of A, but around here average female education level is higher than male (university degrees, highschool, ...), & still there is the pay-gap

Education is only one of a number of measurable factors. See posts immediately above.

double u 24-10-2017 01:24

Re: Single Men Living Aboard and Cruising... an honest look.
 
...if partnership-considerations have reached the level of finance - it's a lost cause.
in our partnership of 39 & marriage of 29 years & 17 of those living on board (in the course of which we did 3 rtws) finance & how much either of us contributed or didn't never came up once, not one singletime!
see also my post abt. "women at sea" here:
https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ml#post2268064

Pelagic 24-10-2017 02:46

Re: Single Men Living Aboard and Cruising... an honest look.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JPA Cate (Post 2505056)
....Pelagic spoke of the virtue of selfishness. It would be well for all of us to acknowledge our own; hopefully it would lead to understanding one's partner's, as well.

Ann

Hi Ann, I think it is important that I define the virtue of "selfishness" within the context of my philosophy.

The virtue of Selfishness is an acknowledgement that a persons act of material kindness and compassion, is based on the phylosophy that this action is for self centered purposes.
IE. It makes them feel good and no other reward or acknowledgement is needed.

daletournier 24-10-2017 03:18

Re: Single Men Living Aboard and Cruising... an honest look.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pelagic (Post 2505222)
Hi Ann, I think it is important that I define the virtue of "selfishness" within the context of my philosophy.

The virtue of Selfishness is an acknowledgement that a persons act of material kindness and compassion, is based on the phylosophy that this action is for self centered purposes.
IE. It makes them feel good and no other reward or acknowledgement is needed.

I'd agree, have thought the same. It can be argued a selfless act is also a selfish act due to the pleasure or emotional rewards one receives.
I also believe that selfish is often thrown around (negativily) to much.
Often some one who chooses not to have children is labelled "selfish" yet one could argue having children is selfish.

brownoarsman 24-10-2017 03:38

Re: Single Men Living Aboard and Cruising... an honest look.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Exile (Post 2505196)
But more to the point, what does this have to do with how a cruising couple handles their finances when there's a disparity between them? :confused: Is any particular woman necessarily entitled to support from a man solely on account of a pay gap between all women & men?? I'm not understanding the connection.

Only so much as to say that, if you are looking for a relationship partner to cruise with, on average, as a male, you should expect to pay more than 50% of the total cost of the journey (not withstanding redhead's experience).

Because, as of you've noted, due to life circumstances (children, out of the workforce), societal circumstances (shunted into lower-paying occupations, e.g. nurse vs doctor, paralegal vs lawyer, etc.), and/or discrimination (if you believe in it), women are less likely to have developed a sizeable kitty they can live securely on as compared to men, due to lower earnings in each year of their work and possibly less paid work overall, and are going to need that kitty to last longer given longer lifespans, all again, on average.

Pelagic 24-10-2017 03:40

Re: Single Men Living Aboard and Cruising... an honest look.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JPA Cate (Post 2505056)
Part of what I have seen over the years is that women who are not married to their skippers, when he dies suddenly, they become homeless as soon as the death certificate is signed. Then, his legal family owns the boat, and turfs her out, and in some cases, it is done with great cruelty.
Ann

That is a really good observation Ann and I think probably more of a common problem, where a nomadic cruising lifestyle does not lend itself to creating financial security in foreign lands.

The other consideration is that many women who commit to a budget cruising lifestyle, have never been attracted towards building a career, so may have very few assets and generally poor business skills.

They are more of the traditional home maker personality, but with a love for ocean travel and of course their partner. (You)

This is where the onus to provide financial security for your partner in the event of your death, should be an undeniable obligation!

Setting up an incontestable Will with an executor / Trustee listed as an emergency contact is the best way to provide you with confidence that your partner will be well looked after.

brownoarsman 24-10-2017 03:48

Re: Single Men Living Aboard and Cruising... an honest look.
 
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by daletournier (Post 2505144)
"Anyone other than a white male makes less in the same job" quote.

There's a big absolute statement!

I can think of at least one occupation where it's not likely true! I kid, I kid.

Attachment 158234


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