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Meanderthal 10-01-2018 01:32

Re: Single Men Living Aboard and Cruising... an honest look.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by cyan (Post 2552222)
I DO agree with this, except your conclusion. No, there is nothing "ironic" here as you state. It is the opposite of ironic, and quite natural. Western guys are not (no longer?) domineering traditionalists. Why wouldn't Asian women be drawn to that?

Ah, here's where you're missing the key. The happiest of these couples are STILL IN ASIA. Ex-pats. Why? The running inside joke has to due with Western culture ruining the perfect balance of such couples. You do the math, engineer. Affluence and citizenship make the Western man a commodity all over the developing world, but you cannot buy happiness. Those who use this transaction are bound for tears both ways. Of course this happens, but it would be dismissive to assume that this is related to anything I'm stating here.


Let me kindly suggest that you don't have enough information about what is or is not a transaction. Your assumptions of "complaisance" are a common but too narrow view- SOO many other factors. (Hong Kong is a special case, BTW.) There are MANY places where light colored skin and blue eyes are a slam dunk: attractive above all others. You and I would frown upon such quirks, as we proudly come from a society that is more blended and accepting than ever in history. Consider, though- I can't count how many time I was propositioned by checkout clerks in the Phils, as the girl and her co-workers were staring into my eyes. Cell number? Make a baby with me? Constantly. I'm not the only one. Now, if you want to pooh-pooh taking advantage of the fact that sooo many local girls woo you, then I'll endorse that. There is no honor in such treatment. Makes me feel like such an object. (but I got over it eventually) You should ask your friends about this odd situation.


Your friend went to the wrong places. Not his fault. Good on him to combat some very wicked stuff, but the thousands miles I've covered in the beautiful country of Thailand have not included those places. Has he been to the North, to the temples, to Krabi?


With all due respect, the greasy feeling is yours alone. Your assumptions may have predetermined this. An a fellow engineer, I appreciate your precise language. All engineers know the difference between precision and accuracy, of course.:wink:

And I appreciate your point by point rebuttal. Except for, well, everything.

An engineer is supposed to be objective. Objectivity does not, of course, preclude passionate opinions, but the opinions should arise from and be directed by objective evaluation. Each of the arguments you proposed are precisely true: no one would preclude the possibility of an asian woman liking the look of a blonde man, that love can arise between socially and economically unequal individuals, that stable relationships can exist within a framrwork of economic and social coercion, that not all poor women are victims, that not all expats are predators, that people who devote their lives to solving big problems see the worst of humanity, or that places with huge sex trafficking problems can also be beautiful to see.

But I think most of us can acknowledge that while all your examples are possible and do exist, they are only relevant to the well-meaning individual, not the larger pattern.. Certainly, I take a little umbrage with the notion of dismissing the experience of a man who has seen a lot of wrong and war but thinks Thailand is worse yet. Medical professionals, after all, see the dark underbellies of our worlds, and are probably the best judge of the social health of a country. And the suggestion southeast asia's beauty somehow, what, negates the existence of the horrifying sex trafficking statistics is....illogical.

As to the greasy feeling. A man who specifically goes to a poor country with a history of social and economic victimization of women, including widespread and open misogyny and the cultivation of female subservience, specifically because his relative wealth and the value of his citizenship can spackle the defects that made him ineligible in his home country, and specifically because the male-dominated culture produces subservient women who will be 'nice' to him....
I ask you, what on earth else should I feel?

Now, if you were just exploring the area, and you happen to meet a woman, and everyone is happy, obviously, I don't care. I'm not going to care if I meet a couple and one of them is Filipino or from Thailand. I mean, that would be racist as f_ck!

I will care if someone comes on here and says asian women are 'culturally' submissive. A 'nice' euphemism for women pounded into shape by an unfair society. Often, when brought into western culture, where they have more legal and social protections, you'll see those formerly publicly submissive women really take the western men by surprise. I've seen it a hundred times on military bases and in my husband's mom's Filipino community. I got to hear every bit of a few inside stories from a former coworker and good friend of mine who was a mail order bride, as well, and her circle of friends. She commented on the rare love matches as well, but had far more frequent pithy comments on the egos of men who thought desperately poor brides often more than half their age felt romantic love.

Take it as you will. The reality is, if a person is lonely, they'll find fault with themselves or someone else, and find a reason or a way to justify whatever behavior makes them less lonely. If a person is a lonely misogynist, they will like a place where the women are raised in misogyny. If they feel they are undervalued in their own country, well then, surely it is the uppity women of their country, and not the men.

I assume women practice this as well, but again, context. I mean, I've never seen a male mail-ordered. Do let me know when you see an example of that dodo.

double u 10-01-2018 01:32

Re: Single Men Living Aboard and Cruising... an honest look.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by weavis (Post 2552035)
If only it were so simple.

These are two options out of many. Sometimes people join crazy religions and it ruins something. Sometime people get overwhelmed with problems and turn to drink or drugs. Sometimes people just develop mental issues. Sometimes people just develop a love for another...

Generalizations are not the best.

if it happens multiple times to the same person??? I'm convinced he/she should take a very close look at his/her attitudes, possible superficialness, ...maybe see a therapist. here too a version of the following adage applies:
"once is happenstance, twice is coincidence, thrice is enemy action!" (in which case "the enemy is us!" applies more often than not).
any male falling for "golddiggers" more than once: don't blame the women!
any woman that falls for an "alpha-male "(what a ridiculous person! a laughable ass imho, taht's what an alpha male is!) more than once: don't blame the ass!

(just like on a different subject: a nation selecting a pompuous, vain, uneducated nincompoop ass for president: who's to blame???)

boatman61 10-01-2018 04:45

Re: Single Men Living Aboard and Cruising... an honest look.
 
Gotta smile when I hear white folk analysing other cultures through white perceptions.. it makes one understand how they've screwed up things in the Middle and Far East for so long.
Still.. when one has no 'Face' to save.. one usually does not give a toss.. :biggrin:

daletournier 10-01-2018 08:59

Re: Single Men Living Aboard and Cruising... an honest look.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Meanderthal (Post 2552256)
And I appreciate your point by point rebuttal. Except for, well, everything.

An engineer is supposed to be objective. Objectivity does not, of course, preclude passionate opinions, but the opinions should arise from and be directed by objective evaluation. Each of the arguments you proposed are precisely true: no one would preclude the possibility of an asian woman liking the look of a blonde man, that love can arise between socially and economically unequal individuals, that stable relationships can exist within a framrwork of economic and social coercion, that not all poor women are victims, that not all expats are predators, that people who devote their lives to solving big problems see the worst of humanity, or that places with huge sex trafficking problems can also be beautiful to see.

But I think most of us can acknowledge that while all your examples are possible and do exist, they are only relevant to the well-meaning individual, not the larger pattern.. Certainly, I take a little umbrage with the notion of dismissing the experience of a man who has seen a lot of wrong and war but thinks Thailand is worse yet. Medical professionals, after all, see the dark underbellies of our worlds, and are probably the best judge of the social health of a country. And the suggestion southeast asia's beauty somehow, what, negates the existence of the horrifying sex trafficking statistics is....illogical.

As to the greasy feeling. A man who specifically goes to a poor country with a history of social and economic victimization of women, including widespread and open misogyny and the cultivation of female subservience, specifically because his relative wealth and the value of his citizenship can spackle the defects that made him ineligible in his home country, and specifically because the male-dominated culture produces subservient women who will be 'nice' to him....
I ask you, what on earth else should I feel?

Now, if you were just exploring the area, and you happen to meet a woman, and everyone is happy, obviously, I don't care. I'm not going to care if I meet a couple and one of them is Filipino or from Thailand. I mean, that would be racist as f_ck!

I will care if someone comes on here and says asian women are 'culturally' submissive. A 'nice' euphemism for women pounded into shape by an unfair society. Often, when brought into western culture, where they have more legal and social protections, you'll see those formerly publicly submissive women really take the western men by surprise. I've seen it a hundred times on military bases and in my husband's mom's Filipino community. I got to hear every bit of a few inside stories from a former coworker and good friend of mine who was a mail order bride, as well, and her circle of friends. She commented on the rare love matches as well, but had far more frequent pithy comments on the egos of men who thought desperately poor brides often more than half their age felt romantic love.

Take it as you will. The reality is, if a person is lonely, they'll find fault with themselves or someone else, and find a reason or a way to justify whatever behavior makes them less lonely. If a person is a lonely misogynist, they will like a place where the women are raised in misogyny. If they feel they are undervalued in their own country, well then, surely it is the uppity women of their country, and not the men.

I assume women practice this as well, but again, context. I mean, I've never seen a male mail-ordered. Do let me know when you see an example of that dodo.

Your a woman?

Exile 10-01-2018 09:01

Re: Single Men Living Aboard and Cruising... an honest look.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by double u (Post 2552257)
(just like on a different subject: a nation selecting a pompuous, vain, uneducated nincompoop ass for president: who's to blame???)

Maybe as with relationship choices, it comes down to what the alternatives are? :wink:

Exile 10-01-2018 09:02

Re: Single Men Living Aboard and Cruising... an honest look.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by boatman61 (Post 2552307)
Gotta smile when I hear white folk analysing other cultures through white perceptions.. it makes one understand how they've screwed up things in the Middle and Far East for so long.
Still.. when one has no 'Face' to save.. one usually does not give a toss.. :biggrin:

:thumb: :thumb:

daletournier 10-01-2018 09:13

Re: Single Men Living Aboard and Cruising... an honest look.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by boatman61 (Post 2552307)
Gotta smile when I hear white folk analysing other cultures through white perceptions.. it makes one understand how they've screwed up things in the Middle and Far East for so long.
Still.. when one has no 'Face' to save.. one usually does not give a toss.. [emoji3]

Oh cmon, missionaries did it for years and that always worked out great, didn't it? saved all those savages.

Olddan1943 10-01-2018 09:23

Re: Single Men Living Aboard and Cruising... an honest look.
 
IMO, you folks are over thinking this entire selection process and that goes for both gender.
Let's settle for tolerating each other with the possibility of a relationship growing to permanency.
Just because two people sleep in the same bed does not give license to either party to initiating sex.
IF a man and woman can work together towards a common goal, preventing the boat from sinking while making headway, that's a good start.
I am sure everyone, both genders, have lists of needs, wants and desires.... and we may discover those lists mean little if anything.
If you want the 5 top things on my list, I will gladly tell you. 1. breaths regularly 2. female. 3. will tolerate me. 4. beautiful to me. Permit me to expand on that please. If she has a sweet, gentle heart so will be beautiful to me. 5. To be announced at a later date.

daletournier 10-01-2018 09:35

Re: Single Men Living Aboard and Cruising... an honest look.
 
I posted the French wolf whistle getting banned article earlier in the thread. Here's another one from France, but this time it's supporting the other side.

https://news.sky.com/story/catherine...women-11202070

Exile 10-01-2018 10:33

Re: Single Men Living Aboard and Cruising... an honest look.
 
Hmmmm . . . it sounds to me like it's your own "privilege" and that of your relatively affluent, professional Asian women friends which may be giving rise to your assumptions & skewing your conclusions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meanderthal (Post 2552186)
I do not agree with this. I have many asian-born or asian-resident female friends--bc I am an engineer, I've traveled to asia myself, and bc my best friend lives in Hong Kong. They rail against the built-in mysogyny of their cultures. Are they representative of the entirely of their sex? No. Hard to say any group is representative of the whole But they have the education and economic autonomy to make their own partnership choices, and choose partners, generally, not domineering traditionalists. Ironically, frequently they wind up marrying a western guy in the end for this reason.

So you're saying that Asian women who have more relationship choices -- because of their education, professional standing, and affluence -- are choosing western men because Asian men tend to be misogynistic, domineering traditionalists. OK, makes sense, and if I were in their position I would probably do the same.

If a Western male goes to a poor, male-dominated country in asia to shop for his 'wife' so he can use the relative purchasing power of his affluence and citizenship, and the relative social and legal protections granted to women of his culture as implicit bargaining chips...he's not being honest about the whys and wherefores. He's entering into a long term 'comfort' transaction with no contract.

I'm confused. What exactly is dishonest here needing the legal protection of a contract? How is the Asian woman in your example being misled? For e.g., how does your perceived power imbalance create a coercive scenario that disadvantages the woman? Isn't this actually less dishonest than a poor western woman who professes her loyalty & love to a wealthier man, but is actually conditioning it on the man providing her a more affluent lifestyle?

I don't object to the transaction on principle. Good for the women if they wind up better off and can stomach a man who wants to buy their complaisance and call it 'culture'. I just object to the existence of the power imbalance in the first place, the economic and cultural coercion driving the transaction, and the potential for abuse of privilege.

If your assumption is that the woman is merely "stomaching" a man who is "buying" her complacency under the guise of "culture" then you do in fact find it objectionable "on principle." And yet you already acknowledged that it was a better deal for your privileged friends, but somehow for poorer women with fewer choices it's "economic and cultural coercion." As for the potential for "abuse of privilege," isn't that potential higher with Asian men who you & your friends claim are "misogynistic, domineering traditionalists?" Why do you assume that an arrangement that is beneficial for the affluent is somehow coercive for the poor? Sounds more like a 1st world problem that is mainly yours.

As a side note, one of my favorite people in the world and oldest friends has been a paramedic in forward operating bases in afghanistan and vicinity for a decade. After his last contract ended, he wound up in Thailand, and now has a girlfriend and kid there. Complete accident, no preconceived notions, etc. But the corruption of the sex economy he saw there so HORRIFIED a man who has spent most of his adult life in warzones that he is devoting his life to combatting it now. And where, exactly, is the money coming to fund all this sex trafficking? Yep, from wealthy countries.

Kudos to your friend, but sex trafficking exists everywhere, and you're again assuming that the well-known severity of the problem in a place like Bangkok infects an entire region. And I thought we were discussing western men looking for marriage or long-term relationships? It seems odd that they would be looking for that amongst houses of prostitution, any more than a western man would be searching for a wife amongst street walkers in their own country.

Does that mean if you marry someone from another part of the world, that you are an ahole? No. But going on an internet forum and preselecting a geographic region based on the reputed complaisance and poverty of the women is kinda greasy feeling.

As Cyan pointed out, perhaps greasy for you but probably not the actual couple in question. Is there actual coercion, abuse, misogyny, etc. going on in a large proportion of these relationships or is it more about your personal disapproval? And again, aren't these relationships actually more honest in terms of what each partner can expect than some of the abusive & oppressive relationships being complained about in this thread amongst western couples? And why do you apparently approve of a relationship that you acknowledge is better for a privileged Asian woman, but would deny to a poor Asian woman with far fewer choices?

Your approach kinda reminds me of people in my city who have the affluence to shop only at Whole Foods, but are the same ones who protest the loudest against the Walmart at the other end of town. :nonono:

boatman61 10-01-2018 10:39

Re: Single Men Living Aboard and Cruising... an honest look.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by daletournier (Post 2552459)
Oh cmon, missionaries did it for years and that always worked out great, didn't it? saved all those savages.

Yup.. sent em to heaven in their thousands with all the 'Poxes' they brought with them.. :thumb:

cyan 10-01-2018 10:56

Single Men Living Aboard and Cruising... an honest look.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Meanderthal (Post 2552256)
And I appreciate your point by point rebuttal. Except for, well, everything.

An engineer is supposed to be objective. Objectivity does not, of course, preclude passionate opinions, but the opinions should arise from and be directed by objective evaluation. Each of the arguments you proposed are precisely true: no one would preclude the possibility of an asian woman liking the look of a blonde man, that love can arise between socially and economically unequal individuals, that stable relationships can exist within a framrwork of economic and social coercion, that not all poor women are victims, that not all expats are predators, that people who devote their lives to solving big problems see the worst of humanity, or that places with huge sex trafficking problems can also be beautiful to see.

But I think most of us can acknowledge that while all your examples are possible and do exist, they are only relevant to the well-meaning individual, not the larger pattern.. Certainly, I take a little umbrage with the notion of dismissing the experience of a man who has seen a lot of wrong and war but thinks Thailand is worse yet. Medical professionals, after all, see the dark underbellies of our worlds, and are probably the best judge of the social health of a country. And the suggestion southeast asia's beauty somehow, what, negates the existence of the horrifying sex trafficking statistics is....illogical.

As to the greasy feeling. A man who specifically goes to a poor country with a history of social and economic victimization of women, including widespread and open misogyny and the cultivation of female subservience, specifically because his relative wealth and the value of his citizenship can spackle the defects that made him ineligible in his home country, and specifically because the male-dominated culture produces subservient women who will be 'nice' to him....
I ask you, what on earth else should I feel?

Now, if you were just exploring the area, and you happen to meet a woman, and everyone is happy, obviously, I don't care. I'm not going to care if I meet a couple and one of them is Filipino or from Thailand. I mean, that would be racist as f_ck!

I will care if someone comes on here and says asian women are 'culturally' submissive. A 'nice' euphemism for women pounded into shape by an unfair society. Often, when brought into western culture, where they have more legal and social protections, you'll see those formerly publicly submissive women really take the western men by surprise. I've seen it a hundred times on military bases and in my husband's mom's Filipino community. I got to hear every bit of a few inside stories from a former coworker and good friend of mine who was a mail order bride, as well, and her circle of friends. She commented on the rare love matches as well, but had far more frequent pithy comments on the egos of men who thought desperately poor brides often more than half their age felt romantic love.

Take it as you will. The reality is, if a person is lonely, they'll find fault with themselves or someone else, and find a reason or a way to justify whatever behavior makes them less lonely. If a person is a lonely misogynist, they will like a place where the women are raised in misogyny. If they feel they are undervalued in their own country, well then, surely it is the uppity women of their country, and not the men.

I assume women practice this as well, but again, context. I mean, I've never seen a male mail-ordered. Do let me know when you see an example of that dodo.

Objective. That is the certainly the key. You did a great job in voicing the concerns of the patronizing Western society. I'm calling that subjective.

"Culturally submissive" is a phrase that YOU happened to use. That sums up your misunderstanding in so many ways. I won't go into how wrong and insulting that is. For a very good reason, you are projecting the grease that you know (Filipina mail order bride situation) into my discussion of happy couples that I find: ex-pats and their local women. YES. Yes, I am assuming a well-intentioned guy. You know, a benevolent single male cruiser.

Seemingly in your view, the horrible sex trafficking problem in the region is the reason no single Western man should even go near the area. Sure, bad guys should stay away. (Some locals would like the Russians to stay away, but that's another story) I suppose you worry that ALL guys are weak and the "bad girls", as my Thai wife would call them, are going to corrupt them. Fair enough.

Please understand that you bring lot of Western patronizing with your views. So did Hillary Clinton, when she went on her fight against Human Trafficking as US Secretary of State with all the good will of Nancy Reagan in the Just Say No campaign. Lord, we all want the trafficking to stop, right? Well, more understanding of the whole problem is a good start. The unintended consequences of corruption fueled by well-meaning American foreign aid is wide spread.

Years ago, I was living with my Filipina GF's family for quite some time on the coast in a tiny village in Samar. They were self-sufficient, happy, and peso-less. They didn't NEED money- plenty of fish, local fruit, fresh water, cinderblock huts.(trading extra fish for rice) There was no misogyny to be seen, as the women seemed to be in charge and the men were happy to hang together on their fishing trips. Laughter was constant, and the smiles of the children and the jungle karaoke filled the atmosphere.

I saw the results of trafficking. The real stuff. There were girls who were tricked into lucrative "housekeeper" jobs in the mid-East, passports then taken, and forced into prostitution. Horrible stuff. Like you, I hope it can be stopped.

I saw the results of Western ignorance as well. My GF's cousin came home to the village for the holidays, from a job in the big city. Jenevic was 23 and very proud of her ability to bring a big bag of rice home. She had nicer clothes than her cousins, and was respected and adored. A hero's welcome. After the big welcome home feast, my GF asked me for something she had never asked before. Money. her cousin, Jenevic, needed money to "fix a toothache". $600 later, she received an entire NEW tooth and what would have been about $6000 work in the US.

Jenevic came home for the holidays without a tooth . Let me back up. At 23, she was a bar girl, earning money for sex. I never gave any condemnation, I just listened. She proudly bounced between bars to better her situation, working only when she wanted, leaving behind mommies (mamasans) who were too controlling. She seemed proud and in charge of her own body. Maybe face-saving good spin? Sure. Still, she was proud until the day she lost her tooth.

It was near the holidays, and she said this was the danger time. The police needed money for Christmas shopping. One day she was hearded out of her bar and into a jeepney by guys with AK47s and badges. She was handed papers to sign, confessing that she was 17 years old. Genevic refused and was hit by the butt of a big gun. She finally signed the phony document after losing a tooth, and all of her money.

There were feel-good headlines in the Manila Times that month about the Rescued Victims of Trafficking. Underaged. Rescued. Yay America. We done good. We can take the Phils off the Tier 2 list now.
I felt a bit greasy that Christmas. I hoped that my patronizing tax money actually helped some of those other Pinays who were stuck in the Emirates without a passport. Dunno.

Like you, I do try to be objective. I also have years of colorful travels and first hand observations that could cause you to question your own assumptions if your objectivity is honest. Your use of terms like "mail order bride" suggest that this process may only beginning.

My initial assertions stand. There are beautiful reasons for a single Western male cruiser to experience the culture of SE Asia. Because you have heard of some dark things to avoid is no reason to stamp this opinion with your own prejudices. See?

Exile 10-01-2018 11:01

Re: Single Men Living Aboard and Cruising... an honest look.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by daletournier (Post 2552485)
I posted the French wolf whistle getting banned article earlier in the thread. Here's another one from France, but this time it's supporting the other side.

https://news.sky.com/story/catherine...women-11202070

Thanks to the recently revealed behavior of Hollywood-types & politicians, the lines delineating appropriate and inappropriate if not criminal conduct are brighter than ever. But as soon as worthwhile social movements like #metoo get politicized they go from trying to positively influence social behavior & norms, to yet another way of exerting power. The next thing you know it's become a club to suppress other points of view, and the echo chamber of groupthink takes over. So maybe articles like you posted will help curb the inevitable excesses that are likely to develop. I don't think there's any danger of such opinions blurring any lines . . . for decent, respectful men that is.

Olddan1943 10-01-2018 11:06

Re: Single Men Living Aboard and Cruising... an honest look.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by cyan (Post 2552549)

Like you, I do try to be objective. I also have years of colorful travels and first hand observations that could cause you to question your own assumptions if your objectivity is honest. Your use of terms like "mail order bride" suggest that this process may only beginning.

My initial assertions stand. There are beautiful reasons for a single Western cruiser to experience the culture of SE Asia. Because you have heard of some dark things to avoid is no reason to stamp this opinion with your own prejudices. See?

Sad to say this goes on in all countries, even the US.

How the govt. act is seldom how the individual citizen acts. I am sure her family did not condemn you for the behavior of their govt. nor the US govt.

We can only put our best foot forward, smile and stay out of their govt. business. If we don't, we could end up with more than a tooth missing.

cyan 10-01-2018 12:32

Re: Single Men Living Aboard and Cruising... an honest look.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Olddan1943 (Post 2552559)
We can only put our best foot forward, smile and stay out of their govt. business. If we don't, we could end up with more than a tooth missing.

These are wise words indeed.


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