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fstbttms 16-09-2020 09:55

Re: Seahawks islands 44 issues
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sailorboy1 (Post 3234149)
Boaters and bottom cleaners aren't really on the same page far as bottom paint. Boaters want bottom paint that doesn't allow stuff to grow on the hull, while I bet bottom cleaners just want the paint to allow it to be easier for them to remove.

Boat owners and hull cleaners want the same thing- an anti fouling paint that is effective and durable. Nobody likes cleaning sh*tty paint.

a64pilot 16-09-2020 10:15

Re: Seahawks islands 44 issues
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by fstbttms (Post 3234144)
The entire Sea Hawk leadership team went to federal prison because of their crimes regarding TbT paint. You set the bar pretty high for what constitutes "disreputable."

Operative word to me here is did, as in past tense.

The truth is, that I did things in my youth that most likely would have landed me in jail, maybe even Federal Prison, so I’m less likely to condemn people for life for past mistakes, because I know that it was just pure luck of the draw that my life ended up as well as it did, it could just have easily gone the other way.

If you have ever dealt with the higher levels of Business, and by that I mean the leaders of Billion dollar companies, it’s surprising at how many are in my opinion just crooks, protected by levels of lawyers I’m sure, and they justify their behavior by saying “it’s just business”. I know because I’ve seen it, and it made a strong impression on me.

Not all of course, Joe Brown who owns Hartzell Propellor and GE’s Vice President of General Aviation Brad Mottier for example are in my opinion upstanding people with very high moral standards, but they are outnumbered.
For obvious reasons I won’t name some of the crooks.

fstbttms 16-09-2020 10:18

Re: Seahawks islands 44 issues
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by a64pilot (Post 3234174)
Operative word to me here is did, as in past tense.

They may have paid their fines and done their time, but they're still selling the poison and they're the only ones on the planet that do. I guess that's OK with you. It's not with me.

I had a conversation with Sea Hawk sales manager Tommie Craft about this very subject. To hear him tell it, it was all a big misunderstanding and not the company or its executives' fault. Slimiest bullsh*t I've ever heard.

sailorboy1 16-09-2020 10:24

Re: Seahawks islands 44 issues
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by fstbttms (Post 3234159)
Boat owners and hull cleaners want the same thing- an anti fouling paint that is effective and durable. Nobody likes cleaning sh*tty paint.

Boat owners don't want to have to clean the hull, period! To us paint that grows stuff isn't paint that works!

fstbttms 16-09-2020 10:29

Re: Seahawks islands 44 issues
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sailorboy1 (Post 3234181)
Boat owners don't want to have to clean the hull, period! To us paint that grows stuff isn't paint that works!

Then you have unrealistic expectations. For sure you don't represent the great majority of boat owners, who understand that anti fouling paint doesn't eliminate fouling completely.

sailorboy1 16-09-2020 10:47

Re: Seahawks islands 44 issues
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by fstbttms (Post 3234185)
Then you have unrealistic expectations. For sure you don't represent the great majority of boat owners, who understand that anti fouling paint doesn't eliminate fouling completely.

Yes I am unrealistic to expect the crap to work!!! Of course the only reason to call it unrealistic is because we know it doesn't work.

And trust me we ALL understand that all of it is just crap! The only ones who are happy about are people like your, boat yards and of course the paint people.

a64pilot 16-09-2020 10:51

Re: Seahawks islands 44 issues
 
It’s a complex problem, with seemingly no easy answer. For example one small two stroke scooter like you see thousands of in Indonesia etc. pollutes several times more than a full size modern pollution controlled automobile, yet they are made by the millions I’m sure every year.

So are all the big companies that make billions off of manufacturing millions of these scooters evil, disreputable companies or are they good guys for giving inexpensive transportation to millions of poor people?

DDT was outlawed in the US in 1972 as being a really, really bad thing for the environment, yet China and India manufacturer tens of thousands of metric tons of the stuff each year still.

fstbttms 16-09-2020 11:02

Re: Seahawks islands 44 issues
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by a64pilot (Post 3234214)
It’s a complex problem, with seemingly no easy answer.

In the Sea Hawk case, it is quite simple. The company and those who own and manage it committed felonies against their customers and the U.S. government. How you can come in here and rationalize that is beyond me.

Bycrick 16-09-2020 14:18

Re: Seahawks islands 44 issues
 
They went to jail for “selling an unregistered pesticide” in the US. It’s hard to stretch that into a high moral crime that will poison the world. I can buy Seahawk paints at my local emporium. I won’t because the paint I’ve been using for years works fine and according to a lot of stories, Sea Hawk doesn’t work very well sometimes.

But if someone approached me with a bottom paint that lasted much longer and was legal to apply in my location and had sufficient reviews to make an informed decision on its effectiveness, I’d buy it in a minute.

The next time something goes wrong on my boat, I’ll drop you an email to see whether it was an accident, lack of timely maintenance or just whether I deserved it.

fstbttms 16-09-2020 14:36

Re: Seahawks islands 44 issues
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bycrick (Post 3234358)
They went to jail for “selling an unregistered pesticide” in the US. It’s hard to stretch that into a high moral crime that will poison the world.

Spin it any way you like. The truth however is easily found by people who still care about doing business with convicted felons. Clearly you don't have a problem with it:

Federal prosecutors charged a Florida paint and coatings manufacturer with conspiring to unlawfully produce and continue sales of a bottom paint containing the pesticide tributyltin methacrylate, or TBT, and falsely representing to customers and distributors that it was in compliance with federal law.

The company “willingly” acted “to defraud the United States, that is, to impede, impair, obstruct and defeat the lawful functions of the EPA in enforcing federal environmental regulations,” the indictment said.


https://www.passagemaker.com/trawler...0Tommy%20Craft.

S/V Adeline 16-09-2020 15:15

Re: Seahawks islands 44 issues
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by fstbttms (Post 3234373)
Spin it any way you like. The truth however is easily found by people who still care about doing business with convicted felons. Clearly you don't have a problem with it:

Federal prosecutors charged a Florida paint and coatings manufacturer with conspiring to unlawfully produce and continue sales of a bottom paint containing the pesticide tributyltin methacrylate, or TBT, and falsely representing to customers and distributors that it was in compliance with federal law.

The company “willingly” acted “to defraud the United States, that is, to impede, impair, obstruct and defeat the lawful functions of the EPA in enforcing federal environmental regulations,” the indictment said.


https://www.passagemaker.com/trawler...0Tommy%20Craft.

Is a link available for the case outcome? Being *indicted* doesn't mean one is guilty by any stretch. I am curious if evidence supported the indictment

fstbttms 16-09-2020 15:46

Re: Seahawks islands 44 issues
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by S/V Adeline (Post 3234397)
Is a link available for the case outcome? Being *indicted* doesn't mean one is guilty by any stretch. I am curious if evidence supported the indictment

You think the US District Attorney brings an indictment based on bullsh*t? They all pleaded guilty. :rolleyes:

https://www.tradeonlytoday.com/indus...d-coating-case

wingssail 16-09-2020 15:47

Re: Seahawks islands 44 issues
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by fstbttms (Post 3234016)
"Enlighten" you as to what? Copper-based anti fouling paints are not going anywhere, certainly not in California. There are no plans, no legislation, no nothing in the works to eliminate copper as a biocide in anti fouling paints. No loopholes needed. As I mentioned, the California legislation that was similar to Washington's proposed law died in 2011 without even being voted upon. I don't know how I could make it any clearer.

Well fstbttms, I don't know if you are purposefully being disingenuous or are just uninformed.

CALIFORNIA

Quote:

Originally Posted by fstbttms (Post 3233829)
Umm... California is not "considering this type of ban." You are regurgitating news from 8-10 years ago. The legislation you are referring to never even made it to the House floor for a vote. Further, Washington has enacted legislation that pushes any potential ban on copper-based paints in that state back to 2026.

Legislation was passed in California to restrict copper bottom paints in 2018. While it is still permitted in reduced amounts further restrictions are being considered according to the letter I received today from California Department of Pesticide Regulation (CDPR)

3 CCR § 6190: Copper-Based Antifouling Paints and Coatings was passed and effective in California on July 1, 2018, and this was not 8-10 years ago, but just 2 years ago. Info bulletins from DPR (Department of Pesticide Regulation) say that "At largest marinas, additional actions may be needed", due to the fact that (DCu) and associated toxicity still exceed California water quality criteria. "This does not apply to commercial vessels: Passenger ferries, excursion vessels, tug boats, work boats, fishing vessels, etc".

WASHINGTON

As for the Washington legislation,

Quote:

Originally Posted by fstbttms (Post 3233829)
Washington has enacted legislation that pushes any potential ban on copper-based paints in that state back to 2026.

Yes, on June 11, 2020 the Washington legislature passed a revision of 70.300.020 RCW Dispositions RECREATIONAL WATER VESSELS—ANTIFOULING PAINTS which amended the bill so that it now takes effect on Jan 1, 2026 (with some interim steps and checkpoints) and that is where it stands at this time. That is not a "potential ban", it is a definitive ban that now takes effect on that date. The law states that no recreational water vessel manufactured with antifouling paint containing copper may be sold in the State of Washington, nor can any paint containing copper be sold in the State of Washington. I didn't read the whole law but I assume it also forbids application of paint containing copper. Current copper levels in bottom paint usually range from 25 - 75%.

There is of course the potential that this law will be rescinded entirely or replaced by a ban similar to California's.

It is interesting to read the entire report from the Washington State Department of Ecology. After reviewing a very large number of studies Ecology was unable to conclude that copper leeching from bottom paints does any long term damage to non-targeted organisms, and that alternatives were likely to be worse. That report from September 2019 resulted in the legislature's action to delay the implementation. Based on that I think it would be out of line to claim that people who use copper bottom paints are "part of the problem."

COMMERCIAL VESSELS.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fstbttms (Post 3233829)
See, you fail to even understand the problem. The reason there is any scrutiny at all of anti fouling paints on recreational vessels and not large commercial vessels is that commercial vessels do not congregate in large numbers in small, poorly-flushed basins for extended periods of time like recreational vessels do. So those many hundreds (and sometimes many thousands) of boats sitting in a given marina? They're polluting that marina with their paint's copper biocide 24/7/365. Commercial vessels don't do that. Further, discharges from commercial shipping in this country are already regulated under a different set of rules. It's called the Vessel General Permit. You could look it up. But I suspect that research isn't your forte.

It appears that commercial vessels have no legal restrictions., The VGP addresses a completely different topic and other laws give no legal restrictions.

VGP
As far as I can determine, the VGP (Vessel General Permit) which was created by the EPA under the authority of the Clean Water Act of 1972, and is intended to be renewed every 5 years. It was first issued in the 2008 VGP (v1) then subsequently updated in 2013 (v2) and in 2019 (v3), but as far as I can find this VGP covers discharges from vessels, not antifouling coatings.

USCG 33
Title 33-NAVIGATION AND NAVIGABLE WATERS, CHAPTER 51-CLEAN HULLS, SUBCHAPTER I-GENERAL PROVISIONS. Clean Hull Act of 2010 (33 U.S.C. §§ 3801 et seq, 2.2.4 Anti-Fouling Coatings/ Hull Coating Leachate

Reading all the references I can find there is no US law covering antifouling coats on commercial vessels other than restrictions against organic tin (covered in 33 USC, mentioned above). The section on hull coating goes no farther than defining best management practices which include the statement, "When vessels spend considerable time in these waters (Shelter Island Yacht Basin in San Diego, California and waters in and around the ports of Los Angeles/Long Beach)... vessel owners/operators shall consider using anti-fouling coatings that rely on a rapidly biodegradable biocide or another alternative rather than copper based coatings.

LACK OF JUSTIFICATION

Many commercial vessels have immersed surface areas which are over 1000 times as large as a typical 40 foot sailboat. A commercial harbor with 4 ships is therefore likely to cause as much environmental damage as a marina of 4000 sailboats, and many commercial harbors are also contained in areas in which leeching of copper can remain concentrated similar to what can happen in a marina. Further, many ports around the United States typically have dozens of commercial vessels anchored or berthed, and while they don't remain there as long, when one leaves another takes its place, so the explanation that recreational vessels have concentrations which cause environmental damage but that ships do not seems to overlook the possibility that commercial vessels can also contribute and should have equal restrictions.

Then there are the excluded vessels which quite often are berthed in areas adjacent to or included in marinas, such as passenger ferries, excursion vessels, tug boats, work boats, fishing vessels, etc. If it is only marinas which are the problem, then why are these other marina occupants not subject to the restrictions?

All together, it seems to me that the common justification for excluding commercial vessels is based more on lobbying and the cost to the commercial operator than on any logical justification.

This is not to say that further scientific studies are not needed nor that there isn't a good chance that some change in how we keep our boat bottoms clean is not going to be justified and required at some point in time. However you cannot save the world by attacking boat owners who think that copper bottom paint is OK.

And you ought to restrict your use of cheap insults, it does not help prove your case.

a64pilot 16-09-2020 15:54

Re: Seahawks islands 44 issues
 
That’s know as history.
Ford fought the unions and had people killed, so we should boycott Ford now? Mitsubishi was a major manufacturer in WWII and the Japanese committed horrible war crimes, should we boycott Japan? How about Germany?
Closer to home the US government committed war crimes and genocide against the native population. What do we do about that?
That’s all history, and has not much to do with the present.

Seahawk’s Officers apparently committed crimes in the past, they got caught and they paid for it, so you think they should have renamed the company Datsun or something?
What is your point?

Bycrick 16-09-2020 15:57

Re: Seahawks islands 44 issues
 
If you think I should avoid doing business with "convicted felons," then why would I ever want to give them back the right to vote?


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