Cruisers & Sailing Forums (https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/)
-   Monohull Sailboats (https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f47/)
-   -   Why are yachts so much cheaper in Europe? (https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f47/why-are-yachts-so-much-cheaper-in-europe-152506.html)

Greig 04-09-2015 23:48

Why are yachts so much cheaper in Europe?
 
Hey guys, I'm looking at buying a yacht and after a lot of searching I have found lots of production yachts(Bavaria, Beneteau, Jeanneau etc)are a lot cheaper in Europe than what I can buy here in NZ for basically the same yacht.
After reading endless forums and being humoured by the arguments of those who obviously don't like them, is there something I am missing?
I'm looking at a 36-40ft for Blue sailing. I would like to sail from NZ over to the islands and cruise around there for a bit.
It has been suggested to me by a friend to get a Steel Roberts as big as I can afford. As an engineer I know what salt water does to steel but I does appeal to me as I know steel very well, but I am also wondering if Glass would be easier to maintain.
I could buy a steel now for $50-$80K but they are between 20-35 years old. Or, I could get a Production yacht about 10-15 years old that looks all flash and pretty for the same $
What are your thoughts and any input would be very helpful
Thanks

Kenomac 04-09-2015 23:54

Re: Why are yachts so much cheaper in Europe?
 
More yachts for sale, fewer buyers as a result of economic issues is why yachts are cheaper in Europe. Simple, supply and demand.

Fiberglass is much easier to maintain than steel, does not degrade or rust in salt water, I don't really understand your friend's reasoning.

K_V_B 05-09-2015 00:01

Re: Why are yachts so much cheaper in Europe?
 
Look at the "VAT Paid" status. Many boats entering the second hand market are former charter, on which VAT has not been paid. This means that a EU buyer will have to paid between 17% and 25% in tax to get VAT Paid status. That depresses the price.

Greig 05-09-2015 00:11

Re: Why are yachts so much cheaper in Europe?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by K_V_B (Post 1907670)
Look at the "VAT Paid" status. Many boats entering the second hand market are former charter, on which VAT has not been paid. This means that a EU buyer will have to paid between 17% and 25% in tax to get VAT Paid status. That depresses the price.

Would I still have to pay VAT if I was taking it out of Europe? I Think I have to pay the GST on it when it gets here

Kenomac 05-09-2015 00:38

Re: Why are yachts so much cheaper in Europe?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Greig (Post 1907672)
Would I still have to pay VAT if I was taking it out of Europe? I Think I have to pay the GST on it when it gets here

No, you won't have to pay VAT if you take delivery in a non VAT country or VAT exempt zone.

paulajayne 05-09-2015 00:52

Re: Why are yachts so much cheaper in Europe?
 
Have a look at ferro cement boats.

People tend to shy away from them so prices are better and you can get a lot of boat for your money.


Do not rust nor are subject to worm.


Get good survey done by someone who knows ferro cement.


example:-

https://www.tradeaboat.co.nz/detail/m...ahitian/245622

hoppy 05-09-2015 01:08

Re: Why are yachts so much cheaper in Europe?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kenomac (Post 1907675)
No, you won't have to pay VAT if you take delivery in a non VAT country or VAT exempt zone.

As a non EU resident the OP can buy the boat anywhere in the EU, register it in NZ and get the 18 months VAT free time within the EU.

hoppy 05-09-2015 01:11

Re: Why are yachts so much cheaper in Europe?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by K_V_B (Post 1907670)
Look at the "VAT Paid" status. Many boats entering the second hand market are former charter, on which VAT has not been paid. This means that a EU buyer will have to paid between 17% and 25% in tax to get VAT Paid status. That depresses the price.

When I was looking, the listed price of the VAT & non-VAT paid boats were pretty much the same. I suspect that the non-VAT paid boats would be more negotiable on price.

weavis 05-09-2015 01:15

Re: Why are yachts so much cheaper in Europe?
 
I think the real answer is not that yachts are so much cheaper in Europe, it is more that Australia and New Zealand are vastly over priced.

Kenomac 05-09-2015 01:17

Re: Why are yachts so much cheaper in Europe?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by hoppy (Post 1907682)
As a non EU resident the OP can buy the boat anywhere in the EU, register it in NZ and get the 18 months VAT free time within the EU.

As non EU residents, we were required to take delivery outside the VAT territory. In our case Guernsey, in order to qualify for the 18 month exemption.

hoppy 05-09-2015 01:44

Re: Why are yachts so much cheaper in Europe?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kenomac (Post 1907686)
As non EU residents, we were required to take delivery outside the VAT territory. In our case Guernsey, in order to qualify for the 18 month exemption.

There's been plenty of Aussies & Kiwi's buying in the EU and quite a few threads about this. Never heard this requirement before. I doubt that every one of these purchases were for VAT paid yachts.

I do recall there was some 30 day to get out of the EU clause, but I thought that was for EU residents wanting to avoid VAT

Kenomac 05-09-2015 02:18

Re: Why are yachts so much cheaper in Europe?
 
Well.... I can only speak for my UK, Spanish and Italian purchasing experiences. Whether for the boat or items which were purchased for the boat, all required the payment of VAT unless I took delivery of the items outside the VAT zone. And there was virtually no way possible for us to be refunded the VAT on items such as an including our new anchor, turbo, engine work done the first year, boat storage.... Basically everything.

If its purchased within the VAT zone, you will pay VAT... purchased outside the VAT zone, no payment of VAT.

I'm not an EU resident. A delivery crew was hired by the previous owner to deliver our boat to Guernsey, specifically to avoid VAT, the boat anchored next to me right now, the same story except their went to Gibraltar for delivery. Boats from the UK travel all the time to Guernsey and Jersey for the new owners to avoid VAT if it's not required of them. Vessels sold in the Med. travel to Gibraltar to do the same.

StuM 05-09-2015 02:33

Re: Why are yachts so much cheaper in Europe?
 
Those boats are more expensive in NZ and AUS partly because it costs a lot of time/money to get those boats from where they are manufactured to half way around the world and you have to pay duty/GST when you get them there.

weavis 05-09-2015 03:07

Re: Why are yachts so much cheaper in Europe?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by StuM (Post 1907705)
Those boats are more expensive in NZ and AUS partly because it costs a lot of time/money to get those boats from where they are manufactured to half way around the world and you have to pay duty/GST when you get them there.

I would agree with you-only...........

Japan is next door to you so to speak and everything from there on sale in Oz or NZ is waaaay expensive.
We in Europe buy everything from China or Japan or Taiwan and its half the cost even with import tax and VAT.

You need to have a chat with your gov pricing dept.:whistling:

Kenomac 05-09-2015 03:35

Re: Why are yachts so much cheaper in Europe?
 
1 Attachment(s)
The smart Australians and New Zealanders play the endless summer game by leaving the boat in the Med. Six months in the Med, May-October, then six months back at home.

boatman61 05-09-2015 04:21

Re: Why are yachts so much cheaper in Europe?
 
VAT is only paid once on a yacht.. by the first buyer.. unless its a charter company like Moorings etc..
After that the yacht is not liable for further VAT.. it does not apply to second hand privately owned boats.. unless they have been out of the EU Zone for 3 years... in which case its deemed a re-importation.
So if a broker asks you for VAT on a second hand boat.. he's screwing you over.

dlymn 05-09-2015 04:31

Re: Why are yachts so much cheaper in Europe?
 
Let's buy a boat in say, Croatia for say $100,000. Sail it back to Aus. There's 3-6 months out of your life or pay >$25,000 to have it delivered, Pay big insurance for offshore or take the risk of piracy from Egypt to Aus. All of this assumes that you've prepared what was probably an ex charter boat into a blue water sailer. I reckon with liferafts, safety gear, overhauls, you wouldn't get much change from $20,000. Get it to Aus and pay GST on current market value in Aus, import duty, fumigation, registration your probably up for another $25,000.
So that $100,000 boat has now cost you $170,000.
I forgot to include food, diesel, storm damage, port fees for the trip over.

Last time I heard someone trying to do this, they found pieces of the boat washed up on an island in the Pacific.

Buy a boat over there and sail it around the Med. Enjoy!

David_Old_Jersey 05-09-2015 05:01

Re: Why are yachts so much cheaper in Europe?
 
Long answer short - it only makes financial sense if intending to use in EU for several years / seasons.....and also want to make the trip home by boat.

For some that works - for most it don't.

estarzinger 05-09-2015 05:41

Re: Why are yachts so much cheaper in Europe?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kenomac (Post 1907699)
Well.... I can only speak for my UK, Spanish and Italian purchasing experiences. Whether for the boat or items which were purchased for the boat, all required the payment of VAT unless I took delivery of the items outside the VAT zone. And there was virtually no way possible for us to be refunded the VAT on items such as an including our new anchor, turbo, engine work done the first year, boat storage.... Basically everything.

If its purchased within the VAT zone, you will pay VAT... purchased outside the VAT zone, no payment of VAT.

Ken, the people you are dealing with are simply doing you no favors. I have project managed a couple $m refits in France and UK. We did not pay VAT on any of them. The boats 'left' (isle of Mann registery) the EU the day they were put in the water, just for a day, and then returned to their normal VAT in/out dance. The yards all triple checked this was legal because it was their responsibility/liability to collect the VAT. So the folks you are dealing with are simply not making the extra effort to save you the VAT.

Note/edit: we faxed the yards our non-EU clearances. All the yards wanted/needed was to know they had left. It may be that the responsibility/liability passed to the owner after the "for a day".

Kenomac 05-09-2015 05:55

Re: Why are yachts so much cheaper in Europe?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by estarzinger (Post 1907766)
Ken, the people you are dealing with are simply doing you no favors. I have project managed a couple $m refits in France and UK. We did not pay VAT on any of them. The boats 'left' (isle of Mann registery) the EU the day they were put in the water, just for a day, and then returned to their normal VAT in/out dance. The yards all triple checked this was legal because it was their responsibility/liability to collect the VAT. So the folks you are dealing with are simply not making the extra effort to save you the VAT.

In the UK, I was able to recover the VAT I'd paid to the Oyster Yard which was Fox's marina at the time, but not without running around myself to get the job done and the signatures required. Outside the UK has been another story. I've yet to recover a single cent over the past three years. All of the chandleries charge VAT and so do the yards, and expect me to recover the VAT at the airports following departure, which is impossible unless I have all the paperwork in order... Which never happens, and I have a six hour layover at Heathrow to wait in line. At the airport, the clerk always asks for something I don't have, then the following year... It's too late.

I'm just trying to be honest with the OP, forget about assuming he'll be able to recover any VAT with the exception of avoiding the VAT on the boat. Maybe if I was fluent in all languages it would be easier, but try to explain what you need regarding the proper paperwork to someone who only speaks Catalan sometime.

Factor 05-09-2015 06:06

Re: Why are yachts so much cheaper in Europe?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dlymn (Post 1907732)
Let's buy a boat in say, Croatia for say $100,000. Sail it back to Aus. There's 3-6 months out of your life or pay >$25,000 to have it delivered, Pay big insurance for offshore or take the risk of piracy from Egypt to Aus. All of this assumes that you've prepared what was probably an ex charter boat into a blue water sailer. I reckon with liferafts, safety gear, overhauls, you wouldn't get much change from $20,000. Get it to Aus and pay GST on current market value in Aus, import duty, fumigation, registration your probably up for another $25,000.
So that $100,000 boat has now cost you $170,000.
I forgot to include food, diesel, storm damage, port fees for the trip over.

Last time I heard someone trying to do this, they found pieces of the boat washed up on an island in the Pacific.

Buy a boat over there and sail it around the Med. Enjoy!

Dont forget that the hi voltage electrical system and the gas systems are likely to not be legal in Australia as well, and possibly the refrigerant.

boatman61 05-09-2015 06:11

Re: Why are yachts so much cheaper in Europe?
 
Helped an Aussie CF member get his new Lagoon 380 from La Rochelle to Gran Canaria... along the way he bought a fair bit of extra boat stuff including a big Smart TV/computer.. all in Spain/Canaries.
He saved all his receipts.. when he had made his final purchase and had a definite sail date we wandered down to the Customs office in Las Palmas where he filled in the forms along with his bank details and receipts.. 3 months later the money was in his account.
The French part was handled by the Brokers dealing with the sale/purchase


blackswan555 05-09-2015 06:21

Re: Why are yachts so much cheaper in Europe?
 
The Euro being crap also helps ? If you are paying in Pounds or something linked, You are getting 30% more for your money than a couple of years back,

Tim

valhalla360 05-09-2015 06:36

Re: Why are yachts so much cheaper in Europe?
 
Shipping
Long distance purchase complications/costs
The Euro just to a huge drop
The EU economy still weak


If you are looking to bring a boat back, it's probably not nearly as cheap as it sounds. If you are looking for a boat to cruise in the EU, it's a great time to buy.


As Austrailian/New Zealanders, you have a nice advantage as you can skirt the Schengen Rules due to prior agreements that allow you to hop between countries and extend your stay.


As others have said, VAT can be a complication if you get caught by it but there are generally ways around it for non-EU residents.

K_V_B 05-09-2015 07:23

Re: Why are yachts so much cheaper in Europe?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kenomac (Post 1907699)
I'm not an EU resident. A delivery crew was hired by the previous owner to deliver our boat to Guernsey, specifically to avoid VAT, the boat anchored next to me right now, the same story except their went to Gibraltar for delivery.

Odd story. Guernsey is within the customs territory of the EU, so would not qualifay as a destination to get your VAT clock (re)started.

LACHLANC 05-09-2015 07:35

Re: Why are yachts so much cheaper in Europe?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by valhalla360 (Post 1907792)
Shipping
Long distance purchase complications/costs
The Euro just to a huge drop
The EU economy still weak


If you are looking to bring a boat back, it's probably not nearly as cheap as it sounds. If you are looking for a boat to cruise in the EU, it's a great time to buy.


As Austrailian/New Zealanders, you have a nice advantage as you can skirt the Schengen Rules due to prior agreements that allow you to hop between countries and extend your stay.


As others have said, VAT can be a complication if you get caught by it but there are generally ways around it for non-EU residents.

While New Zealanders have prior specific country visa arrangements with some Schengen countries for longer than 3 month stays, I'm pretty sure Australia doesn't.

boatman61 05-09-2015 07:36

Re: Why are yachts so much cheaper in Europe?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by K_V_B (Post 1907818)
Odd story. Guernsey is within the customs territory of the EU, so would not qualifay as a destination to get your VAT clock (re)started.

Yup... remember an American couple (or were they Aussie) who made that assumption about their Catamaran then got to Portugal and wondered why their boat was 'impounded'..

wiekeith 05-09-2015 07:39

Re: Why are yachts so much cheaper in Europe?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by K_V_B (Post 1907818)
Odd story. Guernsey is within the customs territory of the EU, so would not qualifay as a destination to get your VAT clock (re)started.

It's all rather confusing, but apparently the Channel Islands (Jersey, Guernsey, Alderney, Sark and Herm) are not part of the UK or the European Union for VAT purposes.

Jens Jakobsen 05-09-2015 07:54

Re: Why are yachts so much cheaper in Europe?
 
If you are searching for a blue water sailing yacht, see Marie-Galante | 48 fods Bavaria TIL SALG lying Seychelles with both local VAT and European VAT paid. She has loads of blue water equipment, such as genset, water maker, satcom (fleet broadband FB 150) watercooled fridge as well as freezer, that really works in the tropics and even aircondition. Contact details are on the website if you are interested.

Kenomac 05-09-2015 07:58

Re: Why are yachts so much cheaper in Europe?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by K_V_B (Post 1907818)
Odd story. Guernsey is within the customs territory of the EU, so would not qualifay as a destination to get your VAT clock (re)started.

I didn't say I went there to restart my VAT clock, did I? Guernsey is a VAT exempt economic zone within the EU. People travel there to buy things without paying VAT.

If I want to restart my VAT clock it's necessary to leave the EU for a day, which would mean a trip to Gibraltar, North Africa or Montenegro. I could go to Switzerland for a day to restart my VAT clock..... but it's rather difficult to get there by boat.

Two different reasons to go two different places... Look it up.

boatman61 05-09-2015 08:05

Re: Why are yachts so much cheaper in Europe?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by wiekeith (Post 1907830)
It's all rather confusing, but apparently the Channel Islands (Jersey, Guernsey, Alderney, Sark and Herm) are not part of the UK or the European Union for VAT purposes.


Introduction

The formal relationship between the Channel Islands and the EU is enshrined in Protocol 3 of the UKs 1972 Accession Treaty, and confirmed in what is now Article 355 (5) (c) of the EU Treaties. Under Protocol 3, the Islands are part of the Customs Union and are essentially within the Single Market for the purposes of trade in goods, but are third countries (ie outside the EU) in all other respects. However the Channel Islands have a close relationship with the EU in many different fields, not simply those covered by the formal relationship under Protocol 3, as this note explains. Both Jersey and Guernsey voluntarily implement appropriate EU legislation or apply the international standards on which they are based.

The EU and the Channel Islands | Channel Islands Brussels Office (CIBO)

mausgras 05-09-2015 08:19

Re: Why are yachts so much cheaper in Europe?
 
It also depends on where in Europe you buy. The Med. region is much cheaper than northern Europe.
During the GFC prices from Spain to Greece were mad as credit was so hard to get.
There is however another market even cheaper. Have you checked prices in Thailand / Malaysia. I bought an ex charter Bavaria for half the cost of a comparable boat in Oz. Marina and maintenance costs are also half those in Oz. I sail her 2-3 times a year for 2-3 months at a time in some of the most interesting waters in the world. In fact I'm heading there on Monday for a couple of months.
I will bring her back to Oz in 2-3 years time but even with taxes she will be cheaper than buying local.
PM me if you want to know more.

skipgundlach 05-09-2015 08:34

Re: Why are yachts so much cheaper in Europe?
 
You want cheap, come to the US. Our model boat lists for 3-5 times in Europe what you can commonly find in the US...

rkjbnz 05-09-2015 09:20

Re: Why are yachts so much cheaper in Europe?
 
I'm in NZ and looking to do the exact same thing as the OP.

From what I understand being up for tax when purchasing the boat will depend on where the boat is currently registered. For example I am looking at a boat which was launched in EU waters, owned by Russian and registered in the BVI. No tax has been paid on this boat, so I believe I can just pay the price and export it to NZ after it's been deregistered from BVI and registered in NZ.

My idea is to just pluck it straight out of the water put it on a truck to a major port and ship it over, a cost which is coming in at around 70k USD from the quotes I've got. Add this to the purchase price, add duty, exchange rate and GST to everything and doing this is still cheaper than buying a smaller new base boat in NZ. Plus a 2-3 year old boat in the med comes with a lot of inventory and upgrades, generators, electric winches, which to put on a new boat in NZ would bump the price significantly.

The NZD has just recently dropped against the EUR which has added even more to the landed price in NZ but I still think it's a viable option.

Voltage in the EU is the same as NZ/AUS so no issue there apart from the outlets will be a little different.

The problem in NZ is there just isn't the stock of boats to buy. Plenty of sub 90/80's boats. No way I'd get my wife on one of them. Showed her a 99 Oyster the other day, outta my price range but she still screwed her face up. Dock queen it is then!!

Rich


Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum

avb3 05-09-2015 09:38

Re: Why are yachts so much cheaper in Europe?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Greig (Post 1907672)
Would I still have to pay VAT if I was taking it out of Europe? I Think I have to pay the GST on it when it gets here

I'm not sure how your GST works, but in Canada, if I bring my US registered boat in, no GST. However, if I change the registration to Canada, the moment it hits the first port GST becomes payable.

Do you have the option of registering your boat in a third country or does NZ consider it imported if it is there over a certain period of time?

valhalla360 05-09-2015 10:20

Re: Why are yachts so much cheaper in Europe?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by LACHLANC (Post 1907824)
While New Zealanders have prior specific country visa arrangements with some Schengen countries for longer than 3 month stays, I'm pretty sure Australia doesn't.

My mistake, I thought both had that advantage.

first wind 05-09-2015 11:37

Re: Why are yachts so much cheaper in Europe?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dlymn (Post 1907732)

Last time I heard someone trying to do this, they found pieces of the boat washed up on an island in the Pacific.

i have nothing to say about your opinion but, the above statement is a bit silly. what? does no one sail in the ocean anymore? is it, now, impossible to sail from europe to the land down under due to an increase in sea monsters? if you can't sail there because your boat will end up as pieces floating ashore, how the heck
did europeans (or anyone for that matter) get there in the first place? i know they didn't take a flight there. (you know, because there were no runways before people got there. silly. i bet you thought i was going to say because there were no airplanes back then :biggrin:)

El Pinguino 05-09-2015 11:38

Re: Why are yachts so much cheaper in Europe?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by avb3 (Post 1907921)
I'm not sure how your GST works, but in Canada, if I bring my US registered boat in, no GST. However, if I change the registration to Canada, the moment it hits the first port GST becomes payable.

Do you have the option of registering your boat in a third country or does NZ consider it imported if it is there over a certain period of time?

To the best of my knowledge.... if, as a New Zealander, you arrive with a foreign flag boat you have to import on arrival. Same as happened to me with a UK flag yacht arriving in Australia 21 years ago.

However, in Oz, once imported I didn't have to change the flag... I assume this is the same in NZ.

You wouldn't have a NZ flagged yacht in a purple fit if you wanted to leave the country again......

first wind 05-09-2015 11:50

Re: Why are yachts so much cheaper in Europe?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by skipgundlach (Post 1907877)
You want cheap, come to the US. Our model boat lists for 3-5 times in Europe what you can commonly find in the US...

SSHHHH don't say that! for pete's sake. if obama finds out about that, he will do everything he can to get prices raised to the costs paid in Australia because it's not fair that we get them so cheap. didn't you learn your lesson with gas prices?:biggrin:

hsi88 05-09-2015 14:32

Re: Why are yachts so much cheaper in Europe?
 
I just paid less than $2 a gallon for gas in VA. I have to say, I like the direction gas prices have been going. And used boats have never been cheaper. Supply and demand still works in the U.S.A.


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 20:54.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.


ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.