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-   -   Holding Tank in Spain - a Must Have? (https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f17/holding-tank-in-spain-a-must-have-142330.html)

Dauntlessny 08-03-2015 02:23

Re: Holding Tank in Spain - a Must Have?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rwidman (Post 1768253)
Nope. Those pipes are common and drain streets and parking lots and even areas behind berms. Not sewage. You see them all up and down the AICW as well. Let's not try to pass off photos for something that they are not to try and make a point.

Kenomac is more right than you are.

THose pipes do dump runoff, but they also dump excess waste that can not be treated because of the volume.

How do you think all the bacteria gets in the water? and why would they measure it, if 100%

weavis 08-03-2015 03:15

Re: Holding Tank in Spain - a Must Have?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dauntlessny (Post 1768629)
Kenomac is more right than you are.

THose pipes do dump runoff, but they also dump excess waste that can not be treated because of the volume.

How do you think all the bacteria gets in the water? and why would they measure it, if 100%

Actually that was weavis.

Blame where blame is due please......... :whistling:

weavis 08-03-2015 04:11

Re: Holding Tank in Spain - a Must Have?
 
The bottom line is a logical one.

Fish, humans and animals all excrete. (Not boats :biggrin:)

On this basis, the sea can deal with the natural process within its own parameters, but seems to have difficulty in a short term disposal of concentrated waste with chemicals being mixed into it in vast quantities.

Now I read recently that Mount Everest is having a problem with all the excreta that has been, well, excreted over the years on its routes. Something to do with the cold preserving the once steaming piles forever. Natural biological breakdown of the waste is not occurring. That tells me that Everest is not really a family holiday spot.

Ive always found it good manners to keep my poop to myself and dispose of it in designated poop collection facilities, or failing that, consign it to briny deep when 12 or miles offshore. I am pretty sure that my small contribution is dealt with within several hours in the sea, but not happy about the chemicals used to break it down on land.

My next boat/Catamaran probably will have composting heads. Although I love the ease of a button, a macerator and a discharge hose, I also like the fact that my poop can be recycled in a completely harmless way, and if I happen to also own a decent garden at the time of owning aforementioned Catamaran and go home frequently........ I have my very own fertilizer.

Im not a paid up member of the 'save the world' club. A lot of that is politically motivated. I accept the conveniences of plastic although I deplore the longevity of it when discarded. However me refusing to use it does not slow down the production, or last time I looked it hadnt anyway.

All this moral outrage regarding poop........ is really someones PERSONAL disgust at a waste product that is going to be dealt with in an efficient manner by nature anyhows. Its not pleasant to have a bobber or two present themselves in front of you but thats how it is. I dont see anyone questioning how the big holding tanks on shore deal with the excreta they collect from the small holding tanks of the boats that do the" right thing."

I personally have been in the vicinity of a huge warship that discharged all their waste before heading to shore........ I have never seen so much 'waste' in my life....... tons of it. This must go on all the time.

Pooping is not pleasant when discharged in Marinas. Poor social skills in action. However dragging the government in to make a law will infringe further than ever thought and end up with a really bad situation on another level.

Better to remonstrate with the discharger from the marinas management or expel the shitstirrer in a "begone you varlet" manner than that. Armed Coasties boarding your vessel because you dont have a holding tank? Something is wrong here aint it.............

Im a firm believer in minding yer own ****.

boatman61 08-03-2015 04:37

Re: Holding Tank in Spain - a Must Have?
 
Weavis... dump the PortaPotti and them Chemicals... in a skip.
The Plankton and fish don't like the Marinade..:facepalm:

weavis 08-03-2015 05:05

Re: Holding Tank in Spain - a Must Have?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by boatman61 (Post 1768691)
Weavis... dump the PortaPotti and them Chemicals... in a skip.
The Plankton and fish don't like the Marinade..:facepalm:

Use the green chem........ its environmently friendly......can even go in septic tanks and not kill the bacteria...... :whistling:

rwidman 08-03-2015 06:48

Re: Holding Tank in Spain - a Must Have?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dauntlessny (Post 1768629)
Kenomac is more right than you are.

THose pipes do dump runoff, but they also dump excess waste that can not be treated because of the volume.

Nope.

rwidman 08-03-2015 06:55

Re: Holding Tank in Spain - a Must Have?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by weavis (Post 1768678)
...............Ive always found it good manners to keep my poop to myself and dispose of it in designated poop collection facilities, or failing that, consign it to briny deep when 12 or miles offshore. ........... .

:thumb::thumb::thumb:

Polux 08-03-2015 10:42

Re: Holding Tank in Spain - a Must Have?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by conachair (Post 1768562)
:)
Have you even been there? Seems extremely unlikely given your comments....
Difference is we've been there... .

I wonder why you assume I have not been there: On the last 13 years I have cruised more than 25000nm on the Med, From Coats of Spain, Balearic Islands, Corsica, Sardinia, Elba Islands, Sicily, coasts of Italy, Sicily and Eolian Islands, Coasts of Slovenia, Croatia (and Islands), Montenegro, Greek Ionian Islands, Greek mainland coats, Saronic Islands, Cyclades, Crete Dodecanese, Turkey, some parts of North Africa. Besides the sailing knowledge of the coats I know a considerable part of the coats of Spain France and Italy cruising by car.

Do you have a similar level of knowledge about the region?

Polux 08-03-2015 10:53

Re: Holding Tank in Spain - a Must Have?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by weavis (Post 1768678)
The bottom line is a logical one.

Fish, humans and animals all excrete. (Not boats :biggrin:)

On this basis, the sea can deal with the natural process within its own parameters...
...

No doubt about that, the problem is the quantity. Consider a crowded anchorage and the big number of big mammals (humans) on a small spot that will be continually occupied (by those or by others on that anchorage) trough all summer months. You have not on the Med (in the nature) a similar concentration of big animals (and correspondent excrement), not even close.

The closest you got are some scattered dolphin bands that don't keep themselves permanently in some small bays and coves.

The problem is that the huge quantity of human excrement (if they were disposed on the water) would bring a natural ecosystem (were some animal excrement is part of it) out of balance very quickly and then the natural process would not be able to deal with it.

rwidman 08-03-2015 10:55

Re: Holding Tank in Spain - a Must Have?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by boatman61 (Post 1768557)
Oh Boy.... its Google time again...
..........

Yep. You can't put anything on the Internet if it's not true, right? :rolleyes:

weavis 08-03-2015 11:07

Re: Holding Tank in Spain - a Must Have?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rwidman (Post 1768767)
Nope.

Sigh.....

Although sewage treatment facilities are designed to accommodate and treat sewage from their service area, partly treated or even untreated sewage sometimes is discharged. Causative factors include decayed infrastructure ; facility malfunctions; or heavy rainfall events which overwhelm systems using combined sewers and stormwater drains (known as combined sewer overflows). In unsewered areas, improperly designed or malfunctioning septic tanks can contaminate groundwater and surface water, including coastal waters. In some developed regions (e.g., Halifax Harbor in Nova Scotia, Canada), raw sewage continues to pour into harbors, bays, and coastal waters. In developing countries with no on-site or centralized sanitation facilities, no opportunity exists for any type of treatment, and human wastes go directly into surface waters, including the coastal ocean.

Polux 08-03-2015 11:20

Re: Holding Tank in Spain - a Must Have?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by weavis (Post 1768280)
...
Contamination directly recorded from the coastal water ESPECIALLY OFF THE SWIMMING BEACHES.....if its not coming from the runoffs its coming from a a direct sewer outfall.

15% too much 'untreated' sewage and bacteria. Sewers breakdown and overflow into runoffs during high waterfall periods you know..... 15% is a lot given the length of the Coastline. Thats a lot of direct poop contact.

...... probably them pesky boats without holding tanks and the naughty fish pooping..:redface:



Contrast this with Barcelona beaches (and the East side of Spain) being awarded the #1 spot by National Geographic Magasine for the best beach and water quality........ Probably the diet makes for a better poop! :thumb:


There are nine Barcelona Mediterranean beaches that border city for 4.5km. All Barcelona beaches have the EU blue flag of excellence awarded for water quality and services. Each beach has a different name, which you can see on the Barcelona beach map. In 2011 Barcelona was even named the best beach city in the world by the famous National Geographic magazine.

I agree. The Barcelona area (Spain) has one of the highest concentration of industries and population in all med area. The fact that they manage to have blue flag beaches indicates the high quality and efficiency of their waste water and sewage treatment.

The blue flag is attributed by an independent ecological organization (Foundation for Environmental Education) that exists since 1985. One of the parameters is the beach water quality (that is a high one) :

"Water Quality
The beach must fully comply with the water quality sampling and frequency requirements.
The beach must fully comply with the standards and requirements for water quality analysis.
No industrial, waste-water or sewage-related discharges should affect the beach area.
The beach must comply with the Blue Flag requirements for the microbiological parameter faecal coli bacteria (E.coli) and intestinal enterococci/streptococci.
The beach must comply with the Blue Flag requirements for physical and chemical parameters."


Beaches

The analysis of the water is made by independent laboratories and the samples are taken by independent bodies. During a season at least 5 samples have to be taken and the first one at least 30 days before the beginning of the season. One of the samples has to be taken on the bathing area that has the biggest concentration of people.

more here:

https://www.blueflag.org/materiale/pu...tes-2015.pdf-3

Number of beaches with blue flag on countries with med coats (2009):

France: 285; Italy: 225; Greece: 425; Spain: 493; Turkey: 279; Tunisia: 5; Morroco: 25; Montenegro: 19; Cyprus: 53.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Flag_beach

of course this is a optional process and the lack of number of blue flags does not necessarily indicate a problem with pollution but a big number of blue flags indicates large extensions of coastal areas with no polluted waters.

weavis 08-03-2015 11:24

Re: Holding Tank in Spain - a Must Have?
 
In context, the lack of use of a designated waste disposal unit in a public area will reflect in the unsightly reminders of the Sangria and Paella from the night before.

The sea is probably well able to handle a lot of waste, but might take longer to dispose of it. The more frightening aspect in this is because coasts are densely populated, the amount of sewage reaching seas and oceans is of particular concern because some substances it contains can harm ecosystems and pose a significant public health threat. In addition to the nutrients which can cause overenrichment of receiving waterbodies, sewage carries an array of potentially disease-causing microbes known as pathogens.

Animal wastes from feedlots and other agricultural operations (e.g., manure-spreading on cropland) pose concerns similar to those of human wastes by virtue of their microbial composition. Just as inland rivers, lakes, and groundwater can be contaminated by pathogenic microbes, so can coastal waters. Runoff from agricultural areas also contains nutrients such as phosphorus and nitrogen, which can cause overenrichment in coastal regions that ultimately receive the runoff.

The major types of ocean pollutants from industrial sources can be generally categorized as petroleum, hazardous, thermal, and radioactive. Petroleum products are oil and oil-derived chemicals used for fuel, manufacturing, plastics-making, and many other purposes. Hazardous wastes are chemicals that are toxic (poisonous at certain levels), reactive (capable of producing explosive gases), corrosive (able to corrode steel), or ignitable (flammable). Thermal wastes are heated wastewaters, typically from power plants and factories, where water is used for cooling purposes. Radioactive wastes contain chemical elements having an unstable nucleus that will spontaneously decay with the concurrent emission of ionizing radiation.

So whilst I am conscious of "poop and scoop", Im not sure that I wish to take all the blame for pollution in the sea, or even accept that my leavings are responsible for the vast problem we see around the world. My personal deposits are gone in minutes...... but the slurry of 'treated' assorted waste from sewage farms needs yet another look at, and perhaps banning genetically modified foods and hormonally enhanced animal products would help eliminate the weird stuff happening in our seas........not to mention the chemicals sprayed everywhere.

If Barcelona can do it........ ANYONE CAN........ they just have to be motivated and not pass the blame around and deal with the real problem.

We can be polite enough to not drop a plop in the marina..... but its more unsightly than being a real problem given the realities.

boatman61 08-03-2015 11:52

Re: Holding Tank in Spain - a Must Have?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Polux (Post 1768954)
No doubt about that, the problem is the quantity. Consider a crowded anchorage and the big number of big mammals (humans) on a small spot that will be continually occupied (by those or by others on that anchorage) trough all summer months. You have not on the Med (in the nature) a similar concentration of big animals (and correspondent excrement), not even close.

The closest you got are some scattered dolphin bands that don't keep themselves permanently in some small bays and coves.

The problem is that the huge quantity of human excrement (if they were disposed on the water) would bring a natural ecosystem (were some animal excrement is part of it) out of balance very quickly and then the natural process would not be able to deal with it.


Funny enough.. an owner assist from S France to Tunisia produced some surprises.. both of which I confess I've not seen in the Med between 1965 and Spring 2013 when this delivery happened..
Both were off the W coast of Sardinia.. the 1st surprise was travelling through millions of small Portuguese Man o War.. all dead... or so they appeared..
The other was a large whale.. nope not a pilot whale.. they're fairly common in the Med.. away from the coast.. nope this was a full grown 40+ ftr that breached about a quarter mile of the port beam as we passed the SW corner of Sardinia..
To me that was a great sight.. means the Med is not the sewer pit its been for 50 years or so.. since the package holiday industry kicked off... the good plankton are returning..:thumb:
Another good sign of improving water quality in the EU is the increase in Whale pods in the Biscay over the last 10 years or so.
Don't mean I'll change my habits at sea or on the hook tho'..:biggrin:

weavis 08-03-2015 12:02

Re: Holding Tank in Spain - a Must Have?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by boatman61 (Post 1769013)

Don't mean I'll change my habits at sea or on the hook tho'..:biggrin:

Oh Lord........ at least forget the funny jig before doing the nasty........ :whistling:


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