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h20man 09-07-2014 19:26

Rebel Heart Crew Suing.....
 
Interestingly, The Kaufmans are in the news again, with information about a lawsuit that they are filing:

"The Kaufmans are suing the makers of the satellite phone they used to call their doctor, saying the reason they had to activate an emergency beacon is because the phone stopped working and they were unable to get full instructions on how to treat their daughter."

I do not see how they could sue the makers of the phone... and suspect that there is an error in the news copy.

There is also a new interview....

SV Lift 09-07-2014 19:37

Re: Rebel Heart Crew suing.....
 
Yes more likely would be the service provider/reseller that allegedly cut off service after snail-mailing new data cards. Which obviously weren't received since as Eric put it- satellite phone owners aren't really the type to be sitting around waiting for the mailman.

SaltyMonkey 09-07-2014 19:39

Re: Rebel Heart Crew suing.....
 
Agreed. Story must be messed up.

SV THIRD DAY 09-07-2014 19:42

Re: Rebel Heart Crew suing.....
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SV Lift (Post 1581061)
Yes more likely would be the service provider/reseller that allegedly cut off service without notice after snail-mailing new data cards.

I think they have a damn good case seeing that they actually contacted the provider to make sure their service contract was good and up to date before leaving on the trip, only to have the provider cut off their SIM card and mail them a new one while they were out to sea. Of course just like the GPS units say "not for navigation" to protect themselves from liability, I'm sure burried on line 345a there is a clause in the service provider contract that says they can cut off your service at any time and they are not responsible for "incidential" loss due to the failure of their product.

svlamorocha 09-07-2014 20:10

Re: Rebel Heart Crew suing.....
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by h20man (Post 1581057)
I do not see how they could sue the makers of the phone... and suspect that there is an error in the news copy.
...

I am not so sure it is a mistake, assuming of course that "maker" means Iridium. I suspect they will sue both Iridium and the call plan reseller. Iridiumīs pockets are deeper.. In addition, if there was forced replacement of SIM cards (which are provided by Iridium) that was initiated by Iridium and arguably poorly managed by the reseller in the middle then these trial lawyers would sue both Iridium and the reseller (plus anyone else with deep pockets in a 1000-mile circle)..

svmariane 09-07-2014 20:11

Re: Rebel Heart Crew suing.....
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SV THIRD DAY (Post 1581065)
I think they have a damn good case seeing that they actually contacted the provider to make sure their service contract was good and up to date before leaving on the trip, only to have the provider cut off their SIM card and mail them a new one while they were out to sea. Of course just like the GPS units say "not for navigation" to protect themselves from liability, I'm sure burried on line 345a there is a clause in the service provider contract that says they can cut off your service at any time and they are not responsible for "incidential" loss due to the failure of their product.

And I'm equally "sure" that Eric consulted an attorney who, one would think, read the entire service contract before heading to the courts. :D

James

Ex-Calif 09-07-2014 20:12

Re: Rebel Heart Crew suing.....
 
This will get interesting. David and Goliath.

There is no way this is going to be about the service provider, or the phone.

This is going to be about the terrible parents putting their infant daughter in harms way.

The daughter had been previously ill and that will come into play. He's a professional skipper will come into play. Why not sue the HF maker?

Also everything Eric has ever written here about self sufficiency and safety at sea will be on the table.

Read the comments - Public favor is not with them on this one.

I predict undisclosed, private settlement - which is probably exactly what they are after.

I am conflicted over this one. I like Eric but I am not in favor is suing when one's self-chosen plans don't work out.

Everyone lived, they lost some property. Write a book...

tookish1 09-07-2014 20:27

Re: Rebel Heart Crew suing.....
 
After watching the 25 minute interview I am also frustrated and conflicted.

No mention of the broach that opened the hull to deck joint, no mention of lost steerage and engine trouble. Now a Good Morning America interview. If I was their lawyer this is exactly the media blitz I would be recommending to threaten the deepest pocket with the most amount of negative publicity.

This is not how self-sufficient cruising sailors gets back on their feet. The most disingenuous comment comes at 22:30 when we hear the old saw "I just don't want this to happen to any of my friends......" oh, and pay me!

Disappointed.

Family rescued at sea says satellite cell phone service provider left them in a life-or-death crisis - 10News.com KGTV ABC10 San Diego

Mirage Gecko 09-07-2014 20:35

Re: Rebel Heart Crew suing.....
 
God bless America

tomfl 09-07-2014 20:39

Re: Rebel Heart Crew suing.....
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ex-Calif (Post 1581074)
SNIP

Read the comments - Public favor is not with them on this one.

SNIP

The comments I have seen may not be the best gauge of public opinion. Most of them have been from folks who are sailors, or at least wanna be sailors. Many of the folks making comments have a dream of sailing off into the sunset.

Any jury will be composed of mostly landlubbers who may be terrified of getting on a boat and going out of sight of land. My sister-in-law will not even walk on the floating dock at the marina, she does not know how to swim.

Discovery will open up a can of worms. What ever anyone thinks about the phone card mix up it will not look good that Eric's boat had issues with rot/leaks before leaving. Who knows what else discovery will turn up.

It may well be that the case will be dismissed in pre trial hearings.

tomfl 09-07-2014 20:41

Re: Rebel Heart Crew suing.....
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by tookish1 (Post 1581081)
SNIP

If I was their lawyer this is exactly the media blitz I would be recommending

SNIP

Standard legal advice from lawyers to clients is two words, "shut up".:whistling:

Ex-Calif 09-07-2014 20:42

Re: Rebel Heart Crew suing.....
 
Oh. And I think he directly quotes on CF somewhere that the boat damage was irrelevant. He had a sick child so the EPIRB activation was inevitable.

He had already completed a 3-day course of recommended treatment. The leap of faith that needs to be made is that further treatment could have been advised that would "save the journey."

One paid doctor will say no, the other will say yes.

He has to connect loss of boat to the sat phone outage.

This will never get in a court room - Now back to LA Law reruns...

tookish1 09-07-2014 20:54

Re: Rebel Heart Crew suing.....
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by tomfl (Post 1581087)
Standard legal advice from lawyers to clients is two words, "shut up".:whistling:

Glad to admit I'd be a crappy lawyer :D

smackdaddy 09-07-2014 21:01

Re: Rebel Heart Crew suing.....
 
From what I can see, this is an easy win:

In addition to the medication issue, which is cut-and-dried right there, the satphone also apparently caused the deck-rot the captain apparently knew about (according to his posts) prior to departure (though that didn't come up in the interview, of course), which then apparently caused the deck failure, which then caused the water intrusion, which then caused the failure of the batteries/electronics, which then caused the inability to make drinking water...and also obviously caused the lack of tankage for fuel (for power generation or propulsion)...etc...which left them without power or comms (except for the EPIRB and handheld VHF if I recall correctly - I'll have to look that up).

Yep. Had they only known the medicine technique - none of this other stuff would have been an issue for the remaining 3-8 weeks of that leg of their journey. They were just fine.

Damn phone.

westsail42 09-07-2014 21:02

Re: Rebel Heart Crew suing.....
 
What a role model for us (wannabe?) sailors: fail your dreams? sue someone!

Sailors know you never put your eggs on one basket. You always plan contigencies.

So because he believed his SATPHONE would work, but did not, his family assumed undue risk?

Wait, were there capable global sailors before satphones? Guess not...

Fog Bank 09-07-2014 22:02

Re: Rebel Heart Crew suing.....
 
The Discovery phase will be interesting to say the least.

Kenomac 09-07-2014 22:08

Re: Rebel Heart Crew suing.....
 
Apparently, the Kaufmans were able to find a lawyer who either hadn't read or didn't know of any of their blogs or sailing forum posts.

They also had an SSB radio onboard; who's next on the list of who will be sued? The person who installed the SSB?

SaucySailoress 09-07-2014 22:24

Re: Rebel Heart Crew suing.....
 
They bought and carries a satphone so they could use it in emergencies, such as if a child got sick. The phone was cut off leaving them without communications at sea.

Guys, they activated the EPIRB in order to save their daughter's life because the company cut their line without reasonable notice. They had to pull the plug because of that.

Perhaps they would have had to evacuate anyway, but they'll never have the opportunity to find out, cos the emergency satphone the carried for emergencies didn't work in an emergency, and that was clearly the provider's error. And a dangerous one.

I also hope the provider settles out of court to the tune of a replacement boat and the cost of the rescue. The Kaufmann's shouldn't need to sue on this one, I think the company should be proactive in settling this.

I mean, I don't want a satphone that cuts out when I am mid ocean, so I won't be using Iridium ever if they don't acknowledge their error.

Ex-Calif 09-07-2014 22:40

Re: Rebel Heart Crew suing.....
 
1 Attachment(s)
This may not be about a law suit at all...

I worry about my cynicism sometimes but this could just be about extending the news cycle and gettin' paid for interviews.

I have long lived on an axiom of, "Don't pay too much attention to what people say. Watch what they do."

What happened to them sucked and the community largely supported them. They must know that this "new" twist is going to be controversial.

Palarran 09-07-2014 22:52

Re: Rebel Heart Crew suing.....
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SaucySailoress (Post 1581129)
Guys, they activated the EPIRB in order to save their daughter's life

I'm not sure this is a fact. There where a hell of a lot of issues going on at the time. One thing for sure though is that if the daughter was so ill, and they did contact a doctor, the results would have been exactly the same.

One other thing that will come out is testimony from the rescue group. That will be really interesting. And I would guess this won't even come close to a trial. It costs a lot of money to wage a battle and the Kaufmans don't have it and the lawyer isn't going to risk his on this case, IMO.

Kenomac 09-07-2014 22:54

Re: Rebel Heart Crew suing.....
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ex-Calif (Post 1581132)
This may not be about a law suit at all...

I worry about my cynicism sometimes but this could just be about extending the news cycle and gettin' paid for interviews.

The first thing I thought too.

Another issue:

Has it come to this point in America, where anytime some fool decides to head out into the woods on a hike and manages to get lost, he or she can then sue their cell phone company when the phone doesn't work for whatever the reason (didn't pay their bill, no coverage, phone is broken, dropped it in a puddle, messed up SIM card).... because their weekend adventure was spoiled by a costly rescue?

bobconnie 09-07-2014 23:17

Re: Rebel Heart Crew suing.....
 
:whistling:Never had a Sat Phone, never will have one ! But I have had kid's aboard! and I salute Rebel for having the gut's to put his childs life before his dreams! I've met to many guy's who would have sent his wife and the other kid's off so he could keep on going !! We had to make a few course changes to get a sick child to some one better able to care for them ! And wished at some of those times, that I had chosen a less dangerous lifestyle ! But they all came thru all right! and don't seem to hate me ,at least to much LOLOL. For us, Rebel made a very tough call and he has my pat on his back for being a real man ! By my standards! I believe he made a good decision for his family !! Thumbs up to ya Rebel:thumb:

Fog Bank 09-07-2014 23:17

Re: Rebel Heart Crew suing.....
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kenomac (Post 1581136)
Has it come to this point in America, where anytime some fool decides to head out into the woods on a hike and manages to get lost, he or she can then sue their cell phone company when the phone doesn't work for whatever the reason (didn't pay their bill, no coverage, phone is broken, dropped it in a puddle, messed up SIM card).... because their weekend adventure was spoiled by a costly rescue?

Sadly, it certainly seems that point arrived long ago.

Rustic Charm 09-07-2014 23:26

Re: Rebel Heart Crew suing.....
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SaucySailoress (Post 1581129)
They bought and carries a satphone so they could use it in emergencies, such as if a child got sick. The phone was cut off leaving them without communications at sea.

Guys, they activated the EPIRB in order to save their daughter's life because the company cut their line without reasonable notice. They had to pull the plug because of that.

Perhaps they would have had to evacuate anyway, but they'll never have the opportunity to find out, cos the emergency satphone the carried for emergencies didn't work in an emergency, and that was clearly the provider's error. And a dangerous one.

I also hope the provider settles out of court to the tune of a replacement boat and the cost of the rescue. The Kaufmann's shouldn't need to sue on this one, I think the company should be proactive in settling this.

I mean, I don't want a satphone that cuts out when I am mid ocean, so I won't be using Iridium ever if they don't acknowledge their error.

I'm with you entirely. These armchair sailors that get a kicking out of finding fault without bothering to check facts, will never approach anything to do with this case with anything other than their armchair bias. They live to knock others.

In this day and age of Sat phone taking over from HF, then I'd be pretty pissed off if the provider cancelled my sim and posted me another without even warning me. Because 'yes', I'd relying on the thing for emergency's. And of course, for those who bothered to listen and learn the facts, the boat did not sink because of any faults, dry rot, electrical or water ingress etc etc. Further advice from the Doctor on the phone could well have resolved the issue so they could have continued.

But, arm chairing being arm chairing..

Ex-Calif 10-07-2014 00:06

Re: Rebel Heart Crew suing.....
 
It appears Mr. Dan Gilleon will be the attorney of record.

https://twitter.com/CaptEricKaufman

"Air Force troops who rescued my clients at sea when their phone co. deactivated SIM card while their baby was sick "

And with my cynicism meter on high gain -

"Eric Kaufman @CaptEricKaufman · Apr 27
Are we yesterday's news yet? Has society found something else to entertain themselves with?"

Coops 10-07-2014 00:18

Re: Rebel Heart Crew suing.....
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by tedsherrin (Post 1581146)
I'm with you entirely. These armchair sailors that get a kicking out of finding fault without bothering to check facts, will never approach anything to do with this case with anything other than their armchair bias. They live to knock others.

In this day and age of Sat phone taking over from HF, then I'd be pretty pissed off if the provider cancelled my sim and posted me another without even warning me. Because 'yes', I'd relying on the thing for emergency's. And of course, for those who bothered to listen and learn the facts, the boat did not sink because of any faults, dry rot, electrical or water ingress etc etc. Further advice from the Doctor on the phone could well have resolved the issue so they could have continued.

But, arm chairing being arm chairing..

I think there is a case for criticising the "arm chairing" side of it and there are plenty of knockers. However, if you want to keep pushing your face onto the TV and other media instead of just going about it quietly and without fanfare, then I personally feel that they should not be protected from this.

If you choose to live your life like a reality show, and seem intent on self publicity/promotion, then you have to accept that some folks are going to be completely disillusioned with the reasons why you would do this and they are entitled to say so.

Coops.

Kenomac 10-07-2014 00:47

Re: Rebel Heart Crew suing.....
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Coops (Post 1581164)
I think there is a case for criticising the "arm chairing" side of it and there are plenty of knockers. However, if you want to keep pushing your face onto the TV and other media instead of just going about it quietly and without fanfare, then I personally feel that they should not be protected from this.

If you choose to live your life like a reality show, and seem intent on self publicity/promotion, then you have to accept that some folks are going to be completely disillusioned with the reasons why you would do this and they are entitled to say so.

Coops.

:thumb: Agree 100%.

Regarding others folks comments on the "armchair knockers... we have 2 SAT phones (neither of which currently have service), an SSB radio, three VHF radios and three cell phones on board our boat. If I decided to head out across a 3000 mile stretch of ocean... basically sailing alone on my very first offshore adventure, I wouldn't consider it the responsibility of my SAT phone company to keep me safe.

We are hardly armchair types, since we are out "doing it," cruising from place to place, 6 months of the year.

Ken

Rustic Charm 10-07-2014 00:55

Re: Rebel Heart Crew suing.....
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Coops (Post 1581164)
I think there is a case for criticising the "arm chairing" side of it and there are plenty of knockers. However, if you want to keep pushing your face onto the TV and other media instead of just going about it quietly and without fanfare, then I personally feel that they should not be protected from this.

If you choose to live your life like a reality show, and seem intent on self publicity/promotion, then you have to accept that some folks are going to be completely disillusioned with the reasons why you would do this and they are entitled to say so.

Coops.

Coops, I'd usually agree with you entirely if it was for many other situations other than the Rebel Heart family. But, in this case the family were given a hell of a beating in other CF posts for not being more public, not being interviewed, not responding to criticism. It's as if the poor sods can't step a foot right. If they don't make a public statement or respond to demands on CF and other forums then the arm chair sailors attack them for that. And then in the very rare occasion they do make a public response, well wow, they are now accused of self publicity and seeking the fanfare. This family have deliberately decided not to live their lives like a 'reality tv show', so what's the response as so as they do make a comment, seek to explain something, or even post a blog on 'their' FB page, then their accused of publicity seeking. Damned if they do, damned If they don't.

Coops 10-07-2014 01:05

Re: Rebel Heart Crew suing.....
 
Fair enough, but it just seems so organised and planned lately.

Coops.

Dockhead 10-07-2014 01:58

Re: Rebel Heart Crew suing.....
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by tedsherrin (Post 1581180)
Coops, I'd usually agree with you entirely if it was for many other situations other than the Rebel Heart family. But, in this case the family were given a hell of a beating in other CF posts for not being more public, not being interviewed, not responding to criticism. It's as if the poor sods can't step a foot right. If they don't make a public statement or respond to demands on CF and other forums then the arm chair sailors attack them for that. And then in the very rare occasion they do make a public response, well wow, they are now accused of self publicity and seeking the fanfare. This family have deliberately decided not to live their lives like a 'reality tv show', so what's the response as so as they do make a comment, seek to explain something, or even post a blog on 'their' FB page, then their accused of publicity seeking. Damned if they do, damned If they don't.

I have so far avoided making any comment on this story, but kind of can't helpmyself at this point.

This is a very trenchant comment, I think, and I agree with it. Having the spotlight of publicity shined on you is a weird thing, and the Kaufmanns sure got the full glare of it. It is really not so simple or binary as either "stay out of view", on the one hand, or "live your life like a reality show" on the other. When the whole country wants to know your story, it is sometimes the right thing to do to just tell it, so that at least your version of the story gets told at all, and this is not necessarily equivalent to exhibitionism. Whether Eric was just doing his best with the hand dealt to him, or whether he was trying to exploit the situation for material gain or narcissitic purposes, or some combination of all of these -- we really just can't know this. I prefer to give him some kind of benefit of the doubt and keep my own mouth shut.

Armchair quarterbacking of disasters is surely one of the most popular uses of Internet forums. There is nothing wrong with it -- up to a point. That's because those of us who might someday find ourselves in similar situations can actually learn a lot from the misfortunes and mistakes of others, and thinking through all the various scenarios -- "what if instead of this, he had done that" -- and debating them with others, is actually very useful for our own knowledge and preparedness. But once this spills over into (and inevitably someone starts) "oh what an idiot; can you believe he did that", then it stops being educational and starts being something uglier and less useful.

NoTies 10-07-2014 02:32

Re: Rebel Heart Crew suing.....
 
I'm no wannabe cruiser and have done the miles. If Rebel Heart needed an operational phone link to land to fulfill his cruising dreams he should not have been out there, simple!!! The fact that it has now entered into litigation makes me sad for the future of the cruising lifestyle. Shame.

SV Windrush II 10-07-2014 02:43

Re: Rebel Heart Crew suing.....
 
I am one to always try to find the good in a story, but this one just got uglier. Every time I cast off, especially any offshore voyage. Whatever happens is my responsibility, and if I get any help from anyone, that is a blessing and should be thankful. Seams that there is an element in the American culture that thinks they can go to the law whenever they want to avoid responsibility for their own actions. What a shame.

Scottuk 10-07-2014 02:48

Re: Rebel Heart Crew suing.....
 
I think a ruling in a lawsuit could be to the benefit of all users of a sat. phone in determining the benefits of them as a tool in the safety kit. The US legal system is set up to make these types of determinations through the court hence the need to litigate to define the laws.

A rational Mr RH stated for the lawsuit is so it does not happen to other people. This is only likely to happen if there is a ruling and not a settlement. If a settlement were to occur it would likely contradict the motivation of this stated goal.

It’s too bad that there were other potential mitigating factors. I think the defence could reasonably call into question the preparation of the boat, the experience of the crew and the suspect health of the child, so a ruling in this instance might not be all that definitive.

Oliver L. 10-07-2014 02:49

Re: Rebel Heart Crew suing.....
 
In Germany we still have something called the "risk of life". Basically, it means that if you get up in the morning you will face risks that could be detrimental to your health or even your life, simply because living entails doing things which might go wrong. And the courts act accordingly: If you have an accident on the Autobahn and you were going faster than 130 km/h, you automatically bear some of the responsibility regardless of who was at fault simply because you ought to know that driving fast is dangerous.

Rebel Heart went out there, and I enjoyed the posts of both of them, and he made the right decision in my mind to put his child's health above all other concerns. And yes, it cost him a boat, but from following the story I got the impression that saving the boat was iffy at best.

And now they found an attorney who will sue the hell out of everybody involved for whatever reason he can conjure up. Or - let me guess - the attorney found them? And of whatever he can squeeze out of anyone, he will take most of it?

What a sad end to an adventure.

Oliver

atoll 10-07-2014 02:50

Re: Rebel Heart Crew suing.....
 
so let me get this right?

they are now saying that.

#1 there was nothing wrong with their vessel.
#2 there was no gravely ill child,meerly listlass.
#3 the rescue was unneccesary.
#4 the issue could have been resolved by further communication with their doctor if the sat phone had worked..................

SimonV 10-07-2014 02:54

Re: Rebel Heart Crew suing.....
 
I have never had a sat phone for private use while cruising. That being said I did look into it for my Pacific crossing. Just too expensive at the time. I do remember the speels and advertising relating to ocean communication and they both pushed the emergency coms for distress and disaster at sea. I would have been to say the least disappointed had I spent the big bucks only to have someone decide to cancel my sim while hundreds of miles from civilization. If you payed for a service described by the provider and they failed to fulfill their end of the agreement I would think they would be liable.

Sent from my GT-N7105T using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

Factor 10-07-2014 02:55

Re: Rebel Heart Crew suing.....
 
The lawyer jokes need to start about now:

Q- why has there never been a recorded shark attack on a lawyer

A - Professional Courtesy.

Seriously though. I would like to say "only in America", but the world over more people want to blame others for their mistakes.

Fog Bank 10-07-2014 03:02

Re: Rebel Heart Crew suing.....
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Factor (Post 1581210)
The lawyer jokes need to start about now:

Q- why has there never been a recorded shark attack on a lawyer

A - Professional Courtesy.

Seriously though. I would like to say "only in America", but the world over more people want to blame others for their mistakes.


Apparently the lawyer representing Rebel Heart is also the same man who sued Disney for racism at Disneyland. A further bit of digging turned up an unconfirmed claim that he was also removed from his position as a little league coach due to bullying. Interesting....

NoTies 10-07-2014 03:06

Re: Rebel Heart Crew suing.....
 
If you're going to rely on a telephone working anywhere in the world to get yourself out of difficulty then you have no right to call yourself a bluewater cruiser or whine to the courts when it goes pear shaped. If you want the luxuries of life then stay at home. If you want to test yourself, explore what life has to offer and not be a burden on your fellow man then yes, go cruising.

Sandero 10-07-2014 03:25

Re: Rebel Heart Crew suing.....
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by NoTies (Post 1581216)
If you're going to rely on a telephone working anywhere in the world to get yourself out of difficulty then you have no right to call yourself a bluewater cruiser or whine to the courts when it goes pear shaped. If you want the luxuries of life then stay at home. If you want to test yourself, explore what life has to offer and not be a burden on your fellow man then yes, go cruising.

Pete's comment raises the issue of depending on the reliability of any and all equipment we have which can be called the complex system of a yacht (off shore). We assume certain serviceability and we are aware that entropy being what it is and how the sea seems to make matters worse we face a constant battle of maintenance.

New comm systems and high tech seem to add a measure of safety to what we do... but the complexity and dependance of the designers and service providers renders us in a position to not be able (in most cases) to deal with breakdowns and failures. Unfortunately more and more things become like black boxes which we can deal with. People now heavily rely on GPS and plotters when years ago it was basic DR and paper charts. When these complex systems fail for any reason we are sh*t out of luck and our decision to do rely on them is a risk we assume... along with the benefits they normally provide.

Cancelling a SIM contract or whatever without notice is not a good thing... but relying on a sat phone is not a good thing either.


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