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-   -   Ruining it For The Rest of Us? (https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f2/ruining-it-for-the-rest-of-us-12821.html)

AnchorageGuy 12-02-2008 11:44

You have all missed a major solution to these problems that has been utilized successfully is some areas. All boats are required to meet certain standards for safety, discharge, etc. If the local enforcement authorities would do periodic and regular safety inspections to assure these vessels meet those requirements, issue citations for those that do not and enforce those citation many of these problems will go away. This all without anchoring regulations or additional regulations at all. So what do you do? You contact the appropriate authorities and report your concerns for the possible violations of safety regulations and environmental concerns and ask that they look into this. So you have done your part and you need to insist the authorities do their part. These folks will move on.

markpj23 12-02-2008 12:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by ssullivan (Post 133768)
...However, what about this right?:The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.On boats, you are subject to search and seizure at will and at random by the Dept of Homeland Security. (USCG) They can search without cause, require no warrants, etc...

Natually, I'm not trying to argue... I'm just killing time while I wait for my survey and stuff! ha ha :)

Not trying to argue either Sean ... you butt head!! :D:D

While we were both sleeping Sean our government also passed warrantless wiretap and search authority. My point is only that the laws now in use do not discriminate between ashore or afloat.


No hate mail please - you know I'm joking about the butt-head part... subliminal kinda.. :cool:

Southern Star 12-02-2008 12:02

Thanks Steve - I think I understood the point of your posting. As indicated, I also tend to agree that both the 'bum-boats' and the municipal response - a 72 hour anchoring restriction, are problematic. On the other hand, identifying what we see as a problem and coming up with a solution are entirely different things.

Yes, one would think that a longer maximum stay would still allow the municipalities to get rid of the true 'bum-boats'. On the other hand, from the perspective of the municipalities, I suspect that the owners of boats who choose to anchor rather than dock are considered 'cheap' and therefore, not likely to do anything for the local ecomony beyond what they can do in a few days (ie, some basic re-provisioning/a few meals out).

Hence, as I see it there is little incentive for them to increase the maximum periods and, in fact, there is also a solid argument against doing so: the restrictions tend to reduce the number of boats under anchor at any one time (consisting of only very short-term stays) and hence, there is more space available for true 'transient' boaters, there is less pollution from graywater and yes, the 'vista' remains less cluttered.

The point is that the municipalities see this as a win/win scenario, whereas it is only us cheap boaters who prefer to anchor out who see the response itself as problematic. Hardly a recipe for a change.

Brad

ssullivan 12-02-2008 12:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by markpj23 (Post 133809)
Not trying to argue either Sean ... you butt head!! :D:D

While we were both sleeping Sean our government also passed warrantless wiretap and search authority. My point is only that the laws now in use do not discriminate between ashore or afloat.


No hate mail please - you know I'm joking about the butt-head part... subliminal kinda.. :cool:


[In my best Homer Simpson voice]: Why you little...!

(joking)

ha ha. I'm not even sure I can have a debate with you. You're right. Those warrantless wiretaps and broad search laws are pretty crazy, and they extend to the water, space and possibly to the spirit world?? lol

ssullivan 12-02-2008 12:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chuck Baier (Post 133802)
You have all missed a major solution to these problems that has been utilized successfully is some areas. All boats are required to meet certain standards for safety, discharge, etc. If the local enforcement authorities would do periodic and regular safety inspections to assure these vessels meet those requirements, issue citations for those that do not and enforce those citation many of these problems will go away. This all without anchoring regulations or additional regulations at all. So what do you do? You contact the appropriate authorities and report your concerns for the possible violations of safety regulations and environmental concerns and ask that they look into this. So you have done your part and you need to insist the authorities do their part. These folks will move on.

This is what I figured I'd do to in New England if I saw this FL stuff happening up there. However, I think an even better solution works up there (as FishSpearit said): Old Man Winter evicts 'em! ;)

Man... I need to get this boat transaction done. Sitting in Ft Lauderdale for 2 weeks waiting is causing me to over-post. Must resist...

Southern Star 12-02-2008 12:22

Two weeks in Lauderdale beats 2 weeks in the 'Great White North' (at 6:30 this morning, my thermometer was reading -20 Celcius, or about - 10 Fahrenheit!).

Assuming the deal goes through, do you have any major projects in-waiting on the new purchase, or is she pretty much ready to go?

Brad

ssullivan 12-02-2008 12:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Southern Star (Post 133816)
Two weeks in Lauderdale beats 2 weeks in the 'Great White North' (at 6:30 this morning, my thermometer was reading -20 Celcius, or about - 10 Fahrenheit!).

Assuming the deal goes through, do you have any major projects in-waiting on the new purchase, or is she pretty much ready to go?

Brad

Yet another good point, Brad. There's got to be *something* to occupy my time down here.

No known major projects on the new boat. She appears to be in very sound shape. All the basics are there and working (engines, decent sails, strong deck, ruders). I'll have to wait and see if she'e not looking like swiss cheese below the waterline. I haven't seen the boat hauled yet. Survey is on Friday... is it really only Tuesday??!?!

little boat 12-02-2008 13:01

i lived quite happily at anchor in ft myers among sean's 'riffraff' for almost three years total; sailing for the caribbean from there in the interim for a three year long cruise and returning. i worked doubleshifts fulltime ashore both times which was quite profitable. i found the 'riffraff' to be quite friendly and helpful and many did cash by day work pulling off shrimp heads i believe, at the process place where the docks are. i'm sure sean's previous metal barge idea would have blended right in.

David_Old_Jersey 12-02-2008 13:12

Boat bums? and HoBoats? :)

Us not being a part of England we do things a little different here........no one is allowed to live permanantly on a boat :eek: Why? dunno, probably to stop the hoboats :D

In practice however folk have been known to liveaboard for extended periods - a matter of keeping one's head down - In practice if you have sailed here and are genuinely enroute somewhere no real time limit on your stay (apart from the $$$'s in your pocket).

In our sister isle of Guernsey folk can liveaboard a boat and as far as I know they do not attract ho's on boats :D

But in both islands the cost of living is not cheap, even without a Marina berth........so not the place to live cheap - although in a fairly affluent place it means good scavenging to be had from the harbour skips! :cool:

stevelxls 12-02-2008 13:12

Quote:

You won't see this in Europe I suspect. They have a social net.
Quote:

Originally Posted by ssullivan (Post 133775)
I would be curious to see what our European members have to say about any of this happening in their own back yard. Does it? (not the EPIRB stuff, but the guys out living on the 8 meter "HoboCat" panhandling for dinner and drinks?)

This isn't really a big problem in the UK as the health service and benefits system can cater enough for folk on land that there would be no financial benefit of being afloat. I'm not sure how US social services work, but for example taking a non-working couple in the UK with a child renting a private house, they could basically get at least:
  • Rent Paid
  • Council (municipal) taxes paid
  • Unemployment cash
  • Child benefit cash
  • Child tax credit cash
  • Free medical (NHS) and prescribed medication
  • Free dental
  • Free optician
  • Free schooling with meals supplied
  • Various other freebies
All in all, adding up the value of all this (if paid for) without the medical/dental/optical/schooling, such a couple are probably receiving in excess of $25k per year. Considering that living on the water is cramped and pretty cold for six months of the year, there isn't really any benefit for them so we don't really have a 'boat bum' problem.

ssullivan 12-02-2008 13:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by little boat (Post 133826)
i lived quite happily at anchor in ft myers among sean's 'riffraff' for almost three years total; sailing for the caribbean from there in the interim for a three year long cruise and returning. i worked doubleshifts fulltime ashore both times which was quite profitable. i found the 'riffraff' to be quite friendly and helpful and many did cash by day work pulling off shrimp heads i believe, at the process place where the docks are. i'm sure sean's previous metal barge idea would have blended right in.

Hmmm... good insult. Excellent personal attack, when I'm simply shedding light on what is causing anchoring issues for all of us. Nice to see you can have an intellectual conversation without resorting straight to personal insult in your first post. How very enlightened. (loads of sarcasm intended)

However well you fit in with the riff raff, I was there last week and spoke with cruisers at anchor there who informed me of the goings on in the harbor. Theft is rampant, panhandling is rampant, I saw boats abandoned, a trimaran sunk (because the owner is in jail and it was leaking) and quite a mess in general.

The cruisers (who were also anchored there quite a while, but did not behave as the others did) felt safe though - thanks to being armed.

So you are saying you lived happily among them?

markpj23 12-02-2008 13:24

Sean - tried to send you a PM but box is full....

ssullivan 12-02-2008 13:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by markpj23 (Post 133834)
Sean - tried to send you a PM but box is full....


Sorry... it's loaded with hate mail. lol :D

(kidding)

It's all clear now.

-----To The Haters-------

It's important to note here, that I'm a person who has lived at anchor for about 2 1/2yrs recently and will be back at it again in a couple weeks.

For all those spewing the hate, please consider that I'm pointing out the problem, not creating it. I *AM* a person who lives at anchor. I want my right to do so to continue. I don't want to be lumped into the "homeless on a boat" category like we all will be if those type of people spoil it for everyone who lives at anchor.

I started the thread to see if anyone had any good ideas on how we can avoid anchorimg restrictions by policing ourselves, as boaters. If the bums are your heroes, great. So be it.

Personally, they're not my heroes. They are the people who made it so that I can't anchor indefinitely in FL while awaiting the conditions to change for my trip North.

Southern Star 12-02-2008 13:31

I am prepared to accept that you don't have 'boat bums' in England, but even in the USA the problem seems to be restricted to warmer climates than your own. What you do have, however, is V.A.T. - and this adds significantly to the cost of purchasing a boat. I suspect that at least some of that goes towards the cost of the benefits you have listed.

The people of the United States have chosen to have less of a social-welfare state than exists in the U.K or Europe, as is their right. We in Canada, of course, are much closer to the European 'model'; even then, I suspect that the lack of anchored derelicts here is more a reflection of the climate than good management. In any case, I would think that discussions of the relative merits of these systems is largely irrelevant to the immediate problem, and completely outside of the scope of this forum.

Brad

little boat 12-02-2008 13:35

well, i am a fairly 'enlightened' woman, if that's the word you were shooting for.
not that i need to defend my post or my past; i have never received so much as a parking ticket and i am now 50 years of age. nor have i ever panhandled, received any gov't assistance nor ever been in debt.
as i say, i lived in that anchorage and made many friends and i never had an item stolen. i never even locked my (new at the time) avon inflatable and (also brand new at the time) new 6 hp ob. i worked quite late at night as a bartender and waitress at a fantastic restaurant, the fishmonger if anyone in the area would like a fantastic meal and walked alone to the dinghy dock and never had a problem. i do think its ironic and quite amusing that you proposed inflicting an enormous eyesore of a huge, rusty, engineless barge? upon the lovely shoreline of maine; yet denigrate the small and shabby boats back in the mangroves; slandering their owner's with a wide and quite pompous brush.


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