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malbert73 14-05-2014 19:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by rebel heart (Post 1541325)

When I saw someone needed a map to find the starboard quarter, it helped me to realize the large diversity of folks engaged in this conversation.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I547 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

Ha! My thoughts exactly. For the poster who thought a chainplate could be at your stbd or port quarter (not that there's anything wrong with not knowing but lack of this knowledge may disqualify one from such strong boat related opinions....) I wonder if that's where your running back stay chainplates attached :)

SaltyMonkey 14-05-2014 19:08

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
Seriously, what have you all really learned that you didn't already know before this incident? What are you all hiding behind?

I can guarantee, bet a heavy bet even, that everyone of us who is reading this thread will F U in their own unique creative inventive personal way regardless of what we think we "learn" from threads such as this one. Nature will always find a weak link and there are an infinite number to choose from.

Pick your poison.

oldragbaggers 14-05-2014 19:17

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey (Post 1541486)
I can guarantee, bet a heavy bet even, that everyone of us who is reading this thread will F U in their own unique creative inventive personal way regardless of what we think we "learn" from threads such as this one. Nature will always find a weak link and there are an infinite number to choose from.

Pick your poison.

:thumb::thumb::thumb:

Adodero 14-05-2014 19:18

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
This thread makes me wonder what the weak link in our boat is and what the first thing to fail will be.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate (Post 1541361)
Adodero asked (a couple of pages back) about water for the Mexico-Marquesas trip, and this is certainly soomething that has changed a lot over the years. We left with two 25 gal. tanks full, known consumption of 2 qts. per day, and in addition carried a 5 gal jerry jug for emergency use, it was lashed in the cockpit. We also carried a large sun shower. We also caught water off the mainsail to replenish out tanks in squalls, but did not capture it off the deck. We also had a cockpit awning for use at anchor for catching water--and we still are able to catch rainwater, although now our water tanks are a lot bigger. We used salt water to pre-wash the dishes, and for bathing ourselves, and the sunshower, sparingly, for a rinse off. We also chased squalls for showers, but gave up after the rain kept quitting after we were all soaped up. You get good at dipping a bucket for sea water to rinse off the soap, and finish with just enough to de-salt. And we saved up the laundry till we got to land. It never seemed onerous, it was just how it was. We did carry a Power Survivor 35, which had a manual override, so we could have made enough water to keep us alive, even in the event of power failure.

Good to know, thanks for the info. I was really curious how it's changed over the years.

Our last boat had thru hulls drilled through the deck and it took me over a year to figure out what they were. Apparently, they were a part of a rainwater collection system and the prior owner cut the valves/tubing out, leaving just the thru hulls, so it wasn't evident what it was. I always thought it was a cool idea, but was curious how effective it was.

Palarran 14-05-2014 19:20

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey (Post 1541486)
Seriously, what have you all really learned that you didn't already know before this incident? What are you all hiding behind?

I can guarantee, bet a heavy bet even, that everyone of us who is reading this thread will F U in their own unique creative inventive personal way regardless of what we think we "learn" from threads such as this one. Nature will always find a weak link and there are an infinite number to choose from.

Pick your poison.

I wouldn't have thought it possible to agree with you, but your right. Nothing new has been brought out that we all didn't think weeks ago.

I also agree we all will **. Some of us several serious times in our lives. It's how you handle the ** afterwards that really matters, right? You have to own up to it, work through it, over come it, learn from it, and then forget it.

smackdaddy 14-05-2014 19:36

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey (Post 1541486)
I can guarantee, bet a heavy bet even, that everyone of us who is reading this thread will F U in their own unique creative inventive personal way regardless of what we think we "learn" from threads such as this one.

Well, your first part is absolutely right. I am certain that as I work on my boat for our upcoming passage (learning a lot as I go just as RH did), I'm in the process of screwing up something that will really bite us. I'm also absolutely certain that I'll screw up again when we're out there. To think otherwise is hubris. Hopefully it just won't all add up at once into a real catastrophe.

But it's completely asinine to then conclude one shouldn't try to learn from others' experiences. You may prefer willful ignorance, monkey. I don't.

Cheoah nailed it. It's simply about learning. I guarantee you there are people out there who own these types of boats who are now going to be looking into these things to make sure their boats don't have the same kinds of failures. That's a good thing.


PS - This is one of my favorites thus far from 2009:

https://www.therebelheart.com/blog/20...hekeelcom.html
Quote:

I had an old domain name "thekeel.com", and an old copy of vbulletin lying around. That, and I used to belong to cruisers forum, but have really been let down lately by the type of people on there.
I don't think I was posting during that time (I'd never heard of the guy until the thing). So you can't blame me.

JPA Cate 14-05-2014 19:48

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
Is anyone else here curious about smackdaddy's putative boat? and his agenda here?

He is the one who brought up the chainplate location question and posted the chartlet of the boat claiming to not know where the starboard quarter was. The ways he's developed his participation here makes me wonder whether he's a writer, using this thread to mine info, or has some other hidden agenda?

fryewe 14-05-2014 19:52

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate (Post 1541500)
Is anyone else here curious about smackdaddy's putative boat? and his agenda here?

He is the one who brought up the chainplate location question and posted the chartlet of the boat claiming to not know where the starboard quarter was. The ways he's developed his participation here makes me wonder whether he's a writer, using this thread to mine info, or has some other hidden agenda?

Nah. He's just a regular/run-o'-the-mill sciolist like the rest of us.

oldragbaggers 14-05-2014 19:59

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
He's very prolific over at Sailing Anarchy also.

smackdaddy 14-05-2014 20:04

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by oldragbaggers (Post 1541505)
He's very prolific over at Sailing Anarchy also.

Why thank you!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate (Post 1541500)
Is anyone else here curious about smackdaddy's putative boat? and his agenda here?

Oh, and AnneT - it's a Hunter, not a Putative.

I rarely post here, but when I do...it's interesting.

Heh-heh.

Jim Cate 14-05-2014 20:12

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
I have no idea what SmackD's agenda might be, but his digging about in the history of the vessel has revealed some weaknesses that could well explain the leaking decks that we were all wondering about. I don't have the patience to do that research, and I thank him for bringing it to my attention.

Jim

SV THIRD DAY 14-05-2014 20:13

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by smackdaddy (Post 1541508)
Oh, and AnneT - it's a Hunter

:D
Something about glass houses comes to mind?

oh this will be fun.

Palarran 14-05-2014 20:23

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate (Post 1541500)
Is anyone else here curious about smackdaddy's putative boat? and his agenda here?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Cate (Post 1541513)
I have no idea what SmackD's agenda might be, but his digging about in the history of the vessel has revealed some weaknesses that could well explain the leaking decks that we were all wondering about. I don't have the patience to do that research, and I thank him for bringing it to my attention.

Jim


This is going to be even more fun!!!

minaret 14-05-2014 20:24

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by smackdaddy (Post 1541461)

Between this stuff, termites and rot in the mast, etc. - I seriously feel sorry for the guy. Seems there was A LOT of rot on this boat. Could anything other than a complete re-decking (and more) have made this thing ready for a big offshore passage?



Probably not. The pictures say it all. 40+ year old plywood? Given the rot visible in the pics, I am certain it was extensive. Wonder if this boat was surveyed on purchase? Seems he wasn't even aware of its construction type until well into repairing it. Wonder if it was moisture metered before purchase, or thoroughly hammer sounded? Endemic rot like this can be hard to detect by sounding, but the meter would have shown it instantly...

Gadagirl 14-05-2014 20:28

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
I'd like to offer up a critique. Not for the purpose of being mean spirited. Just an observation from my perspective (a female). This was what I learned from this incident and hope others do as well.


IMO it was not a good thing to unnecessarily minimize the comfort of his crew while they were trying to rest. Stress, and lack of sleep has been well documented as a factor to lower immune response on land, and at sea. Disturbed sleep, and sleep deprivation has several negative effects. I think he was pushing too hard.

Monday, March 24, 2014 at 7:01“You know, I can change the sail configuration a bit.” “What? I had no idea.” I’m such a noob to sailing long distances. “Yeah…just give me a sec.” And I crumpled to floor next to Lyra and tried to convince my stomach that I wasn’t nauseous. A few minutes later, Eric popped into view from the companionway. “Is that better?” And believe it or not, it was. I nodded, disbelieving. “Hold on, one more adjustment.”Within a minute or two things were so much more bearable. I’m sure Eric can/will write a post explaining what he did to change things around."


Things improved so much that within a few hours we were all enjoying time in the cockpit and Eric and I were having long discussions about our future. Our sailing future I mean. Our sailing future with children, and this boat. Sailing across oceans is a great venue for discussing upcoming adventures. The only thing we were missing was Wikipedia so we could research things we were wondering about. Eric made dinner. Eric fixed the awful sailing situation. And we both talked about life once we got to New Zealand. The day officially improved from absolute fail to passing.

So you did good during daylight and gave all a respite for a few hours. As an audience I really almost could hear a deep breath, a sigh, and a smile on Charlotte's lips.


Then you negated that effect by, IMO, making this especially deceptive nasty (d!ck!$h) maneuver. I think that perhaps they were not really "sleeping" as soundly as you assumed, or could've been, because of your actions.WTH, the day before, on the 3rd day, she was ready to bail and you turned everyone's attitudes around but that same evening you did this........

day_4?

Sunday, March 23, 2014 at 3:58

"At night when everyone is in bed, I sneak around and trim all the sails in a little tighter and put us back on a close reach. The motion is lumpy but people are sleeping so I get away with it. Once everyone is awake I'll widen back up again to a broad reach for the comfort factor."

Brilliant strategy! I really do wish you all well, was happy that all were saved, and was touched by the rescue. I respect your wife and children, and those that rescued you.

svmariane 14-05-2014 20:43

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rebel heart (Post 1541325)
When I saw someone needed a map to find the starboard quarter, it helped me to realize the large diversity of folks engaged in this conversation.

ROFLMAO :thumb: Please oh please -- keep that droll sense of humor intact!

Hey - sorry for all your troubles, mate. But you were right: family first.

Strait Shooter 14-05-2014 20:50

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
What she said!

Viking Sailor 14-05-2014 21:11

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gadagirl (Post 1541523)
Then you negated that effect by, IMO, making this especially deceptive nasty (d!ck!$h) maneuver. I think that perhaps they were not really "sleeping" as soundly as you assumed, or could've been, because of your actions.WTH, the day before, on the 3rd day, she was ready to bail and you turned everyone's attitudes around but that same evening you did this........

day_4?

Sunday, March 23, 2014 at 3:58

"At night when everyone is in bed, I sneak around and trim all the sails in a little tighter and put us back on a close reach. The motion is lumpy but people are sleeping so I get away with it. Once everyone is awake I'll widen back up again to a broad reach for the comfort factor."

Brilliant strategy! I really do wish you all well, was happy that all were saved, and was touched by the rescue. I respect your wife and children, and those that rescued you.

It seems obvious to me that Eric was trying to get out of a bad area for the good of his crew. The fact that he was willing to trade speed for the comfort of his crew is a positive. Loping along would likely only have served to prolong their discomfort.

:viking:

rebel heart 14-05-2014 21:21

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
I'm specifically not trying to argue or defend anything, but rather answer every question as accurately as I can. I would caution anyone interested in learning about what happened to be a little careful about conjecturing that a problem, repaired, in one place years before is somehow related to something else.

If you want to draw that conclusion, it's your business. Like I said, I'm not going to try to argue or defend anything.

There are plenty of things not written on my blog. It is not, nor have I presented it, as a comprehensive and balanced view of everything about our boat and our life. I picked topics I wanted to put on there; others weren't, so looking at it like you'll find an even-steven accounting of affairs is a fool's errand.

In the end, a big lesson that I learned is that sometimes you'll need to make decisions without having all the information you want. I couldn't see where the failure was. I couldn't talk to medical professionals with a medical emergency onboard. I couldn't accurately state how long it would take to get where we needed to go.

But a decision still had to be made, and I made mine. You might have made a different one, and that's your choice as master.

If you have a specific question you want to ask me, PM it to me and I'll post a reply here in the thread (if you like). But I'm done with filtering through quasi-accusations, and there's not a lot more facts I can really offer.

If there's some way I can help let me know, but this has devolved from informational to speculative and entertainment.

donradcliffe 14-05-2014 21:27

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by colemj (Post 1539752)
I'm sorry, but as someone who has done a lot of fiberglass work, nobody is repairing a hull-deck joint in snotty conditions, underway, regardless of what one has on board. Stuffing a pillow in it? Maybe. But epoxy putty? No way. Stuffing frayed ropes goo'd up with sealant? That is so funny I'm still laughing. A real fiberglass repair? Well, get out your grinder and power it up, tear out all cabinetry, etc. If you plan on epoxy, no way - 12hr cure time minimum. If you plan on polyester, mix it hot and hope for the best. The next wave, however, will most likely rip it open again. This assume, of course, that the open joint has magically become completely stationary.

Mark

You obviously have not seen "All is Lost".

chall 14-05-2014 21:37

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
While uncomfortable with the tone of some posts, this has been an interesting tangent.

Albeit probably quite removed from the reality of what actually happened :)

Eric if my daughter was sick I doubt I would remember the name of our boat. It was a good decision.

SaltyMonkey 14-05-2014 22:17

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rebel heart (Post 1541540)
In the end, a big lesson that I learned is that sometimes you'll need to make decisions without having all the information you want. I couldn't see where the failure was. I couldn't talk to medical professionals with a medical emergency onboard. I couldn't accurately state how long it would take to get where we needed to go.

But a decision still had to be made, and I made mine. You might have made a different one, and that's your choice as master.

The known unknowns

Terra Nova 14-05-2014 22:51

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Adodero (Post 1541490)
This thread makes me wonder what the weak link in our boat is and what the first thing to fail will be...

The weak link and the thing we can expect to fail is ourselves. Trying our best to make more than 1/2 right decisions; trying to handle problem after problem until, finally, we are drained and have had enough. The boat could go on. But we cannot.

cwyckham 14-05-2014 23:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gadagirl (Post 1541523)
I'd like to offer up a critique. Not for the purpose of being mean spirited. Just an observation from my perspective (a female). This was what I learned from this incident and hope others do as well.

IMO it was not a good thing to unnecessarily minimize the comfort of his crew while they were trying to rest. Stress, and lack of sleep has been well documented as a factor to lower immune response on land, and at sea. Disturbed sleep, and sleep deprivation has several negative effects. I think he was pushing too hard.

Monday, March 24, 2014 at 7:01“You know, I can change the sail configuration a bit.” “What? I had no idea.” I’m such a noob to sailing long distances. “Yeah…just give me a sec.” And I crumpled to floor next to Lyra and tried to convince my stomach that I wasn’t nauseous. A few minutes later, Eric popped into view from the companionway. “Is that better?” And believe it or not, it was. I nodded, disbelieving. “Hold on, one more adjustment.”Within a minute or two things were so much more bearable. I’m sure Eric can/will write a post explaining what he did to change things around."


Things improved so much that within a few hours we were all enjoying time in the cockpit and Eric and I were having long discussions about our future. Our sailing future I mean. Our sailing future with children, and this boat. Sailing across oceans is a great venue for discussing upcoming adventures. The only thing we were missing was Wikipedia so we could research things we were wondering about. Eric made dinner. Eric fixed the awful sailing situation. And we both talked about life once we got to New Zealand. The day officially improved from absolute fail to passing.

So you did good during daylight and gave all a respite for a few hours. As an audience I really almost could hear a deep breath, a sigh, and a smile on Charlotte's lips.

Then you negated that effect by, IMO, making this especially deceptive nasty (d!ck!$h) maneuver. I think that perhaps they were not really "sleeping" as soundly as you assumed, or could've been, because of your actions.WTH, the day before, on the 3rd day, she was ready to bail and you turned everyone's attitudes around but that same evening you did this........

day_4?

Sunday, March 23, 2014 at 3:58

"At night when everyone is in bed, I sneak around and trim all the sails in a little tighter and put us back on a close reach. The motion is lumpy but people are sleeping so I get away with it. Once everyone is awake I'll widen back up again to a broad reach for the comfort factor."

Brilliant strategy! I really do wish you all well, was happy that all were saved, and was touched by the rescue. I respect your wife and children, and those that rescued you.

What the heck? He was a third of the way into what was turning into a month long passage. He was trying to get out of the ITCZ into the trades where everybody would be more comfortable. The difference between a close reach and a broad reach is 90 degrees.

So how long did you want him to sail in the wrong direction?

The family got a break. He was trying to balance short term morale and long term morale. Better comfort now for adding days to a long voyage when everybody will be going sir crazy at the end.

He made a good and caring choice as a skipper, father, and husband.

DumnMad 14-05-2014 23:02

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey (Post 1541486)
Seriously, what have you all really learned that you didn't already know before this incident? What are you all hiding behind?

I can guarantee, bet a heavy bet even, that everyone of us who is reading this thread will F U in their own unique creative inventive personal way regardless of what we think we "learn" from threads such as this one. Nature will always find a weak link and there are an infinite number to choose from.

Pick your poison.

:D:D:D I've learned there's a lot of people on this thread who will never cross an ocean. Too much analysis and dissection = crippling procrastination.

downunder 14-05-2014 23:09

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by cwyckham (Post 1541577)
What the heck? He was a third of the way into what was turning into a month long passage. He was trying to get out of the ITCZ into the trades where everybody would be more comfortable. The difference between a close reach and a broad reach is 90 degrees.

So how long did you want him to sail in the wrong direction?

The family got a break. He was trying to balance short term morale and long term morale. Better comfort now for adding days to a long voyage when everybody will be going sir crazy at the end.

He made a good and caring choice as a skipper, father, and husband.

:thumb::thumb:

Gadagirl,

looking at the specific posts in isolation makes no sense.
A skipper has to look at the big picture.

Big takeaway for me is the issue of aging and deteriorating sailing vessels aren't as bluewater as many make out. What you can get away with coastal can be a real problem 1000nm offshore.

Cheers

donradcliffe 14-05-2014 23:53

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by s/v Moondancer (Post 1540337)

The decision to take a small child trans-oceanic is obviously a parental decision and I think that it does not reach the level of governmental intervention. However, I personally, as a pediatric intensive care doctor and a sailor, do not think that the medical risk is acceptable.

You need to expand your horizons a bit outside your sterile environment. RH was going where some societies don't name babies until they are a year old because infant mortality is a way of life.

europaflyer 15-05-2014 00:15

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey (Post 1541486)
Seriously, what have you all really learned that you didn't already know before this incident? What are you all hiding behind?

Come on Salty, we've learned loads! Such as:
  • Taking children on an extended passage who are too young to have a strong immune system or to describe how they are feeling is a bit risky;
  • Having only one competent sailor on board will be pretty tiring... for them;
  • Being a crewmember on an ocean passage if you haven't really done an extended passage before is a steep learning curve;
  • It's tricky to have the boat set up perfectly all the time if youre basically singlehanded, and this can make you a bit more vulnerable to bad stuff happening;
  • Leaky teakys are liable to develop annoying but not boat threatening leaks;
  • Electronics are vulnerable to seawater;
  • EPIRBs work really well;
  • A fatigued sailor will not be hugely motivated to stay with an already damaged boat if he has an excuse not to (sorry Eric).

Yes we've learned... err... a lot?

Andrew Troup 15-05-2014 00:36

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
I am happy to defend what I have posted, but the couple of people who have taken issue with a couple of things from my posts have either misunderstood or misrepresented those things, so I guess that's not necessary.

Particularly since that was better than I could hope for, on this thread.

goboatingnow 15-05-2014 02:47

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by donradcliffe (Post 1541592)
You need to expand your horizons a bit outside your sterile environment. RH was going where some societies don't name babies until they are a year old because infant mortality is a way of life.


That's a rather strange attitude. I mean there are societies in Africa where child soldiers are conmonplace , so I suppose you'll have the boy down at the marine recruiting office any day now so.

Dave

weavis 15-05-2014 02:49

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by goboatingnow (Post 1541628)
That's a rather strange attitude. I mean there are societies in Africa where child soldiers are conmonplace , so I suppose you'll have the boy down at the marine recruiting office any day now so.

Dave

LOL.......

Andrew B. 15-05-2014 02:53

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DumnMad (Post 1541579)
:D:D:D I've learned there's a lot of people on this thread who will never cross an ocean. Too much analysis and dissection = crippling procrastination.

aka: Analytical paralysis...

captain58sailin 15-05-2014 02:58

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
It is very troubling having a sick child so far offshore as any parent can tell you. Usually when you get offshore all the colds and stuff falls away and you don't get sick until some new person comes on board. With a baby not responding to antibiotics I would be very concerned indeed.

Palarran 15-05-2014 04:25

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Troup (Post 1541600)
I am happy to defend what I have posted, but the couple of people who have taken issue with a couple of things from my posts have either misunderstood or misrepresented those things, so I guess that's not necessary.

Particularly since that was better than I could hope for, on this thread.

I know you like to post for the sake of posting, but - what are you even talking about?

Coops 15-05-2014 05:17

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew B. (Post 1541630)
aka: Analytical paralysis...

Or paralysis by analysis.:rolleyes:

Coops.

savoir 15-05-2014 05:40

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by europaflyer (Post 1541597)
Come on Salty, we've learned loads! Such as:
  • Taking children on an extended passage who are too young to have a strong immune system or to describe how they are feeling is a bit risky;
  • Having only one competent sailor on board will be pretty tiring... for them;
  • Being a crewmember on an ocean passage if you haven't really done an extended passage before is a steep learning curve;
  • It's tricky to have the boat set up perfectly all the time if youre basically singlehanded, and this can make you a bit more vulnerable to bad stuff happening;
  • Leaky teakys are liable to develop annoying but not boat threatening leaks;
  • Electronics are vulnerable to seawater;
  • EPIRBs work really well;
  • A fatigued sailor will not be hugely motivated to stay with an already damaged boat if he has an excuse not to (sorry Eric).

Yes we've learned... err... a lot?

I would add " learning to be patient when dealing with mother nature ". The original blogs have an underlying theme of " gotta go, gotta go ".

chall 15-05-2014 05:43

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by europaflyer (Post 1541597)
Come on Salty, we've learned loads!

Sure. Here are my amendments.

Quote:

Originally Posted by europaflyer (Post 1541597)
[LIST][*]Taking children on an extended passage who are too young to have a strong immune system or to describe how they are feeling is a bit risky;

Yet living in a large city and driving around with an infant in your SUV carries no risk apparently?

Strangely a google search of infant health brings up a range of information relating to smoking, diet, safe environments, road safety and food allergies. Very little medical advice can be found that suggests that infants are timebombs with fragile immune systems that must be kept within the immediate reach of a western hospital.


Quote:

Originally Posted by europaflyer (Post 1541597)
[*]Being a crewmember on an ocean passage if you haven't really done an extended passage before is a steep learning curve;
[

Agreed. Rebel Heart seemed to be taking this on the chin, up until their daughter's health became a grave concern.

Quote:

Originally Posted by europaflyer (Post 1541597)
[*]Having only one competent sailor on board will be pretty tiring... for them;

Quote:

Originally Posted by europaflyer (Post 1541597)
[*]It's tricky to have the boat set up perfectly all the time if youre basically singlehanded, and this can make you a bit more vulnerable to bad stuff happening;

It's tricky to have a boat set up 'perfectly' with anything but a full racing crew. There is a difference though between sailing 'perfectly' and sailing safely. I believe Eric was a good conservative sailor, who appeared to be handling his boat well on a difficult passage. Tired and shorthanded???
So what. That is every second boat crossing the Pacific.

Quote:

Originally Posted by europaflyer (Post 1541597)
[*]Leaky teakys are liable to develop annoying but not boat threatening leaks;

Yep and steel boats rust. Who would of thought??


Quote:

Originally Posted by europaflyer (Post 1541597)
[*]Electronics are vulnerable to seawater;

That has been a good reminder. Spent a good ten minutes staring at my SSB and it's proximity to any and all leaks this afternoon. Cling wrap?

Quote:

Originally Posted by europaflyer (Post 1541597)
[*]EPIRBs work really well;

Do they all?? Perhaps battery life is a interesting little discussion all of it's own.

Quote:

Originally Posted by europaflyer (Post 1541597)
[*]A fatigued sailor will not be hugely motivated to stay with an already damaged boat if he has an excuse not to (sorry Eric).

I could tell you what I actually think of the above statement, but it would involved bad bad words that would violate the 'be nice' rule.

Instead let me rephrase it for you.

"A worried loving dad will be hugely motivated to see things in perspective in a situation like this and make the decision that family matters more than boat".

Isn't that better?

Prairie Chicken 15-05-2014 05:49

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey (Post 1541486)
Seriously, what have you all really learned that you didn't already know before this incident? What are you all hiding behind?

I can guarantee, bet a heavy bet even, that everyone of us who is reading this thread will F U in their own unique creative inventive personal way regardless of what we think we "learn" from threads such as this one. Nature will always find a weak link and there are an infinite number to choose from.

Pick your poison.

Agreed. We can analyze this incident to death and something else will bite you in the azz. I believe Eric prepared as well as any reasonable person would do, and likely better. Sit still happened.

Learn what you can. Take reasonable precautions. But don't poop on those who have met that sit hitting the fan.

SaltyMonkey 15-05-2014 05:56

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by europaflyer (Post 1541597)
Come on Salty, we've learned loads! Such as:
  • Taking children on an extended passage who are too young to have a strong immune system or to describe how they are feeling is a bit risky;
  • Having only one competent sailor on board will be pretty tiring... for them;
  • Being a crewmember on an ocean passage if you haven't really done an extended passage before is a steep learning curve;
  • It's tricky to have the boat set up perfectly all the time if youre basically singlehanded, and this can make you a bit more vulnerable to bad stuff happening;
  • Leaky teakys are liable to develop annoying but not boat threatening leaks;
  • Electronics are vulnerable to seawater;
  • EPIRBs work really well;
  • A fatigued sailor will not be hugely motivated to stay with an already damaged boat if he has an excuse not to (sorry Eric).

Yes we've learned... err... a lot?

I feel very sad if you didn't already know all of this already, which can stand alone without any incidents you imagine.

This also goes for all the addendum's others are attaching.

There is nothing profound or different in anything you all list.

MarkJ 15-05-2014 06:12

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
I just wanted to thank Smackdaddy and fryewe and the others who have pushed the thoughts on this sinking along in the face of some pretty hostile response from some forum members, and to thank Eric for some good answers to questions.

Some of those wanting to close the thread down think there is nothing to be learned. Why then are some of the most experienced people on the forum - whose who have sailed most and 'know' most - still think there is a need to learn from this incident?
Jim and others who have done this particular passage, Mexico or Panama to Marquesas, all know that it is the longest passage, (or is St Helena - Caribbean) and often done reasonably early in the cruising life.
When I was doing it it gave me the heebie geebies. Right in about the middle of the passage the boat is 3,000nms from any mainland and still half that to some pin-prick of an island without marine facilities, even the closest shipping lane is over 1,000nms away (China to Panama). Its the only time I have felt the real emensity of the earth. In the middle of a big, empty, vast ocean. I was at the wheel (AP on) and just wondered what would happen if I fell over and broke my leg. The answer could well have been death from something so simple.
Fortunately the feeling left by the end of that watch, but the point is EVERYONE must feel it.

If everyone was lost on Rebel Heart there would have been a Coronial (or other) investigation, but because, thankfully, everyone was saved the is no investigation except for the inquiring minds on some lame interweb forum. In my mind this thread is an excellent example of what we can do to educate the new people, the advanced sailors, and the ones who have been there done that... because none of us have 'been there' for everything.

The sick child, the family situation, and the voyage were difficulties enough without having to look at another situation. The decks.

In the dry climate of LA and San Diego the minor leaking every time it rained would have appeared a small problem - "all boats leak". And the lack of good, deep, ocean passages for crew training and boat "shakedown" - a term I hate - would have meant the deck problem didn't show itself.

If we think that there was that much water coming through a rotted deck each day whilst on a broad reach (not close hauled) then those little leaks must have been numerous, or extensive.
In the "quarter" argument Eric avoided answering, directly, where EXACTLY was the water ingress. Actually two part question, where was it you tried to fix, and, were there others. He did say at the deck hull joins, but only the "quarter" not where on the quarter. (it opens a myriad of questions: was the water going through the deck there or further forward and flowing under the teak above the ply to the quarter?) This isnt a criticism of him as he was probably getting more than exasperated at the line of questioning and didnt see the relevance.

If theres a small constant infow every time a wave comes on deck, and the knowledge that the deck is teak on ply, one may deduce after 900 miles that the boat may not last the full 3,000 miles! And then when a big bang happened and the in-flow increased to 70 gallons per day one would really begin to cast their mind back on the integrity of the whole untested deck.

As I said, I had the heeby geebies out about there (on the Galapagos -Marquesas run), but my boat was sound, Nicolle was loving it and no children on board.


So yes, I think there is a lot we have learned, a lot of conjecture that has been useful to have, a lot of food for thought for everyone from those who circumnavigated, or blown many of the oceans to those who have not bought their boat yet, and to even those who can't sail, and those dreamers who enjoy reading to exercise the muscles of their imagination.

We must all imagine likely and unlikely scenarios so we maybe better equipped to handle them when we are at sea... even if our voyage is only off the coast by 2 miles.... remember that man killed just last week in Long Island Sound on a 3 hour cruise.

So, once again thanks to those who have usefully added to this thread, and to Eric for his input. I feel we maybe all just a little bit safer for it.


Mark


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