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Andrew B. 14-05-2014 12:31

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ontherocks83 (Post 1541201)
Maybe I've lost track, but where is this thread going? So the leak was somewhere in the starboard quarter. Maybe Eric knows exactly where or maybe it was coming from that area but couldn't see the exact failure point. I am all for analyzing any accident so that I may learn from it but this seems to be getting a bit nit picky.

Also if you want to pick apart every word Eric has said maybe you should read up on something called the fog of war. I am sure from the minute the accident happened until the minute he got onboard the navy vessel his adrenaline did not stop once. His mind was probably on survival of his family and not on which teak board he should pull up to find the exact failure so that he could fill us in on how many inches from the transom the crack was. He assessed the situation, he found it was not repairable, he found it was not life threatening and he moved on to his next of 100 problems.

To me it seems there are one or two people that want to discredit Eric on everything he has said. But then again maybe I am missing something.

To Eric: I am thrilled you and your family are healthy and safe. Please don't read too much into the smelly stuff that that seems to be getting thrown around by some people.

My sentiments exactly ! Thanks :thumb:

rebel heart 14-05-2014 12:32

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by colemj (Post 1541163)
I can't imagine a deck made from teak screwed into plywood which is screwed onto wood beams. There is no way RH could have lasted that long without the deck rotting into the cabin. Even in San Diego. However, I have seem many boats with only an outer skin of fiberglass, while the underneath (inside) of the deck is not glassed. Perhaps Eric was just mistaken on this point because he can see the inside? The outside glass wouldn't be visible without tearing up the teak.

If not, that would have to be mighty high-quality plywood that has seen almost no rain or salt water in its life.

Mark

Well, as a guy who owned the boat for eight years, did a bunch of deck work, pulled up beams, drilled holes through for deck fills and vents, I can assure you that yes indeed it was teak over plywood over beams.

Basically every boat built before fiberglass had the construction of wood over wood over wood, and plenty of boats kept that up into the 1970's. Here's a picture of my boat, starborad foredeck. Plank pulled up, you'll note the wood directly underneath.

https://i.imgur.com/sOcVXM5.jpg

Prairie Chicken 14-05-2014 12:36

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
Quote:

Also if you want to pick apart every word Eric has said maybe you should read up on something called the fog of war. I am sure from the minute the accident happened until the minute he got onboard the navy vessel his adrenaline did not stop once. His mind was probably on survival of his family and not on which teak board he should pull up to find the exact failure so that he could fill us in on how many inches from the transom the crack was. He assessed the situation, he found it was not repairable, he found it was not life threatening and he moved on to his next of 100 problems.
Ditto that!

Jon Eisberg 14-05-2014 12:38

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
OK, forgive me if this has already been covered, and I've simply missed it...

From first hearing of the broach and the resultant damage, my first thought was 'How, exactly, was the boom being prevented?'

If it was done as some do, more or less vanged vertically from mid-boom to the rail or a deck attachment point somewhere amidships, might that have caused the damage? Frankly, that's the only likely way I can imagine dipping the boom might do so... So, again, do we know whether the damage was anywhere near the possible 'point of prevention'? :-)

I really dislike preventers rigged in that fashion, they're a recipe for breaking either a boom, the tackle employed, or deck gear... The forces involved - especially with a low aspect rig and a longer boom like on RH - are enormously higher and more leveraged than what seems a more 'proper' arrangement, namely rigging the preventer from the end of the boom, and taken forward to the bow...

Again, my apologies if this has already been clarified or addressed, I'm a bit late to this party :-)

smackdaddy 14-05-2014 12:39

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkJ (Post 1541206)
Heres the layout showing the quarter bulkhead. Its miles aft than the chainplates except the backstay chainplate.
Actually there are two bulkheads there, one at the foot of the pilot berth and one at the head of the pilot berth.

Gotcha. So should we assume the forward or aft bulkhead? From what I saw in the pics on his blog, the solar panels were mounted on the stern-rails (is it still a "push-pit" on a double ender?). In this case, if the stanchions were still on as he said - and the panels and outboard got ripped off - maybe the stern rail ripped up the deck? But I thought he also mentioned ingress at the cabin-top - which would put it forward of that. I'll keep looking.

colemj 14-05-2014 12:43

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rebel heart (Post 1541211)
Well, as a guy who owned the boat for eight years, did a bunch of deck work, pulled up beams, drilled holes through for deck fills and vents, I can assure you that yes indeed it was teak over plywood over beams.

Basically every boat built before fiberglass had the construction of wood over wood over wood, and plenty of boats kept that up into the 1970's. Here's a picture of my boat, starborad foredeck. Plank pulled up, you'll note the wood directly underneath.

No doubt that is constructed how you said! I wasn't questioning the soundness of traditionally constructed wood decks - but those are not teak screwed into plywood. It is an interesting construction for an offshore blue water boat.

Were you taking care of rot in that picture?

Mark

smackdaddy 14-05-2014 12:46

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon Eisberg (Post 1541219)
OK, forgive me if this has already been covered, and I've simply missed it...

From first hearing of the broach and the resultant damage, my first thought was 'How, exactly, was the boom being prevented?'

If it was done as some do, more or less vanged vertically from mid-boom to the rail or a deck attachment point somewhere amidships, might that have caused the damage? Frankly, that's the only likely way I can imagine dipping the boom might do so... So, again, do we know whether the damage was anywhere near the possible 'point of prevention'? :-)

I really dislike preventers rigged in that fashion, they're a recipe for breaking either a boom, the tackle employed, or deck gear... The forces involved - especially with a low aspect rig and a longer boom like on RH - are enormously higher and more leveraged than what seems a more 'proper' arrangement, namely rigging the preventer from the end of the boom, and taken forward to the bow...

Again, my apologies if this has already been clarified or addressed, I'm a bit late to this party :-)

Jon, that's the question I started with as well. It makes the most sense in terms of the described damage. But there were no clear answers on how/where it was rigged. So I started looking at potential chainplate issues since RH mentioned issues there in his blog. But that's looking less likely as well.

It seems to keep coming back to the preventer - and now potentially rot at the deck. But still no clear info.

BTW - here's that aft bulkhead (at the head of the pilot berth) from the interior:

https://www.therebelheart.com/storage...=1394255745072

letsgetsailing3 14-05-2014 12:52

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
I think Eric's boat may have been a bit of an anomaly.

Here's something out of his blog:

"Thursday, March 22, 2007 at 9:30

By all accounts, including the naval architects own words, our boat is a bastard.

I found an article out there, which I borrowed and put on this site, which explains that the Hans Christian 36 that we own was a maverick, and occupies a strange spot in the history of American cruising yachts.
The Union 36, Polaris 36, and Hans Christian 36 are all the same boat.

Update on Friday, September 7, 2007 at 14:47 by Eric

The mystery is solved! Our hull number is XSA000040675, which means we were one of the first Hans Christians, built by the Union Ship Company. After this, they were renamed to Union Polaris 36's."


As far as the construction of Union Polaris 36's in general, from a review off the internet:

"From a structural standpoint, the boat is typical of Taiwanese-built boats from that era. Displacing 22,000 pounds, the hull is heavily constructed, almost to the point of being over-built.

The hull is thick, hand-laid fiberglass, while the deck is 5/8-inch teak planking over a sandwich of 3/8-inch fiberglass, 3/4-inch plywood, and another 3/8-inch glass layer. The cabintop is slightly lighter composite, using half-inch plywood as the core. The hull-to-deck joint is both through-bolted and glassed over on the inside. Rarely used in today’s production boats (which rely on high-strength adhesives at this joint instead), this labor-intensive approach yields a long-lasting watertight joint."

So it seems that Eric's boat might have been constructed a bit differently than most of the other examples.



rebel heart 14-05-2014 13:19

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by colemj (Post 1541225)
No doubt that is constructed how you said! I wasn't questioning the soundness of traditionally constructed wood decks - but those are not teak screwed into plywood. It is an interesting construction for an offshore blue water boat.

Were you taking care of rot in that picture?

Mark

I think there was some caulking failure; it was pretty routine for me to reef and pay seams on the teak decks. This was early on in the first couple of years that we owned the boat, so I think I pulled it just to see what was underneath it.

fryewe 14-05-2014 13:41

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
2 Attachment(s)
From a 2007 blog post by Eric:

For the last four weeks, I've spent pretty much every weekend down on the boat, scraping varnish and cetol. Because of the damage done, the stern pulpit was removed, along with the boomkin and its corresponding rails that were thru-bolted to the deck.

This alone served as the catalyst to start the long over due wood restoration and protection process, because removing the rails showed off some nice black ( = rotted) wood where the rails were. This of course created a need to start repairing the wood around that area, and also the wood that would be hard to deal with once the rails were back in place, so let's get into it!

Attachment 81302



Also a cabin side from a different post:

Attachment 81303

Clearly the construction technique and materials - coupled with age and wear - on Rebel Heart weakened the deck to some degree. It's not unlikely that the damage Eric found during his preps was more widespread and passed unnoticed and thus unrepaired. If the deck (and rail attachment point) were weakened by rot, with the additional load on the pushpit of solar panel and outboard motor (and perhaps a preventer) the force may have been enough to wrench the deck or deck/rail interface open when the boat took its hit at sea.

smackdaddy 14-05-2014 14:15

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by fryewe (Post 1541271)
Clearly the construction technique and materials - coupled with age and wear - on Rebel Heart weakened the deck to some degree. It's not unlikely that the damage Eric found during his preps was more widespread and passed unnoticed and thus unrepaired. If the deck (and rail attachment point) were weakened by rot, with the additional load on the pushpit of solar panel and outboard motor (and perhaps a preventer) the force may have been enough to wrench the deck or deck/rail interface open when the boat took its hit at sea.

That's certainly looking like the most likely scenario. It's just strange that this particular HC wasn't built like the other HCs...or Unions...or Polarises...etc. Seeing wood-on-wood under that plank, and no waterproof barrier other than caulk on a boat that old...big red flag.

Of course, he also said there was no glass/gelcoat on the cabin top either (just wood-on-wood) - yet there certainly appears to be in that photo. There just seem to be a lot of conflicting details.

I did just find this where RH is repairing several areas of rot (some pretty big) - with epoxy injections and Elmer's wood filler...

https://www.therebelheart.com/blog/20...-the-ways.html

https://www.therebelheart.com/storage...=1238209295177

https://www.therebelheart.com/storage...=1238209118863

And in another post about some work on the head he mentions rot in the bulkhead.

Was this just a boat that was going to keep coming apart in heavier stuff?

colemj 14-05-2014 14:27

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
U36, HC36, P36 - whatever - at least it wasn't a Beneteau or catamaran. Those aren't constructed for offshore blue water work at all.

Mark

smackdaddy 14-05-2014 14:36

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by colemj (Post 1541309)
U36, HC36, P36 - whatever - at least it wasn't a Beneteau or catamaran. Those aren't constructed for offshore blue water work at all.

Mark

Heh-heh. I was wondering when someone would play that card. Thank goodness I have a Hunter!

rebel heart 14-05-2014 14:41

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
Those holes are from when I read the internet, telling me it was glass. A few months later I realized it was wood and ripped the whole piece out. It was also nowhere near any damage from this incident and five years ago.



Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I547 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

MarkJ 14-05-2014 14:44

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rebel heart (Post 1541319)
Those holes are from when I read the internet, telling me it was glass. A few months later I realized it was wood and ripped the whole piece out. It was also nowhere near any damage from this incident and five years ago.

Can you draw where the damage was from this incident, please? It might help us stay off some wild goose chase :)

fryewe 14-05-2014 14:47

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by smackdaddy (Post 1541298)

I did just find this where RH is repairing several areas of rot (some pretty big) - with epoxy injections and Elmer's wood filler...

And in another post about some work on the head he mentions rot in the bulkhead.

Was this just a boat that was going to keep coming apart in heavier stuff?

It's imperative when rot is found that the cause is corrected as well as the repair to damage being made. Sometimes the cause is hard to winnow down. Sometimes time gets in the way. Sometimes lack of money gets in the way. Sometimes lack of experience or skill gets in the way. Sometimes things get pushed down priority lists. Sometimes lists are lost and things forgotten.

But causes have to be corrected.

Not saying Rebel Heart didn't fix causes. I don't know and blogs don't tell whole stories (not that I read all of his).

smackdaddy 14-05-2014 14:49

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rebel heart (Post 1541319)
Those holes are from when I read the internet, telling me it was glass. A few months later I realized it was wood and ripped the whole piece out. It was also nowhere near any damage from this incident and five years ago.



Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I547 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

When you say "glass" or "no glass" are you talking solely about the composite core (wood)? There is clearly the typical glass/gelcoat toplayer you see in the photo - and likely another below the wood core on the interior (if the composite construction method description you had in your blog is to be believed). It's clearly not simply wood-on-wood as you said earlier.

I'm just wondering if this is a terminology problem.

(Look! A goose! Heh-heh.)

rebel heart 14-05-2014 14:50

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkJ (Post 1541320)
Can you draw where the damage was from this incident, please? It might help us stay off some wild goose chase :)

When I saw someone needed a map to find the starboard quarter, it helped me to realize the large diversity of folks engaged in this conversation.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I547 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

fryewe 14-05-2014 14:55

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by smackdaddy (Post 1541324)
When you say "no glass" are you talking solely about the composite core (wood)? There is clearly the typical top glass/gelcoat layer you see in the photo - and likely another below the wood core (if the composite construction method description you had in your blog is to be believed). It's clearly not simply wood-on-wood as you said earlier.

Smack....I think you're referring to the cabin top. I can't tell from the photo if the outer layer is glass...it looks too thin to be a layup and is perhaps a layer or two of cloth and resin or perhaps faired resin that has been painted. Or not. Don't know what would keep it from cracking/crazing if that is the case.

smackdaddy 14-05-2014 15:03

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by fryewe (Post 1541329)
Smack....I think you're referring to the cabin top. I can't tell from the photo if the outer layer is glass...it looks too thin to be a layup and is perhaps a layer or two of cloth and resin or perhaps faired resin that has been painted. Or not. Don't know what would keep it from cracking/crazing if that is the case.

Yeah - it's hard to tell from the photo. But that post earlier (from RH's blog) on the construction method of the boat talked about a typical glass/wood/glass composite for both the deck and cabin top. And this is what he said in that blog entry regarding the portlight repair:

Quote:

The sides of our coach roof (cabin top) are 35 year old plywood with 35 year old fiberglass above it.
Again, it's clear something wonky was going on with RH since this apparently wasn't the case at the deck. But the terminology keeps moving all over the place as well - so it's hard to know.

In any case, rot does certainly seem to be an issue.

Quote:

I've yanked them all off, and sure enough there's a significant amount of delaminated and rotten plywood lurking behind the fiberglass. Fiberglassed over wood seems prone to this type of behavior. The relatively tough fiberglass skin doesn't crack or swell until significant damage has been happening for a long period of time. With simple painted wood, the paint will crack quickly and the damage much more localized.

smackdaddy 14-05-2014 15:04

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rebel heart (Post 1541325)
When I saw someone needed a map to find the starboard quarter, it helped me to realize the large diversity of folks engaged in this conversation.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I547 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

Hey, dude, I put that map up myself! Now it's your turn!

Diversity is a good thing*!

Heh-heh.

(*Elmer's Wood Filler?)

europaflyer 14-05-2014 15:17

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rebel heart (Post 1541325)
When I saw someone needed a map to find the starboard quarter, it helped me to realize the large diversity of folks engaged in this conversation.

:D:D:D:D

Truth is, there really isn't much to 'learn' from this whole thing for us any more, as you did exactly what any right-minded skipper would have done in the same circumstances. It's pretty patronising to you to keep banging on about what we can and can't learn from it. The whole leak thing is a total storm in a teacup IMHO, leak or no leak you clearly wanted to get off the boat because of your daughter and most of us understand that. I choose to believe you when you say you could have got the boat in to port because guess what, you were there and I wasn't.

I think the example you quoted pretty much sums up the type of people left on this thread... I think I'll leave these sciolists to it.

Best of luck to you and your family. Hope you get a new boat and continue the dream. Remember, Moitessier wrecked three boats, you're only on one... catch up man!

fryewe 14-05-2014 15:31

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by europaflyer (Post 1541349)

I think I'll leave these sciolists to it.

Now..now...the mods said "no name-calling."

And I have been called a lot of things in both public and private...but never a "sciolist." I don/t know whether to be offended or not.

(Sciolist: Knowing many things but knowing them badly.)

JPA Cate 14-05-2014 15:40

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
Smackdaddy,

The white material on the pic of the cabin top looks to me like paint! In construction of timber boats, the old way, paint was the last layer. [As an aside, think how paint has been used to camouflage rusty bits in used cars....] The Rebel Heart was a transitional boat for that yard, and combined traditional Taiwanese boatbuilding with fiberglass in the hull.

Adodero asked (a couple of pages back) about water for the Mexico-Marquesas trip, and this is certainly soomething that has changed a lot over the years. We left with two 25 gal. tanks full, known consumption of 2 qts. per day, and in addition carried a 5 gal jerry jug for emergency use, it was lashed in the cockpit. We also carried a large sun shower. We also caught water off the mainsail to replenish out tanks in squalls, but did not capture it off the deck. We also had a cockpit awning for use at anchor for catching water--and we still are able to catch rainwater, although now our water tanks are a lot bigger. We used salt water to pre-wash the dishes, and for bathing ourselves, and the sunshower, sparingly, for a rinse off. We also chased squalls for showers, but gave up after the rain kept quitting after we were all soaped up. You get good at dipping a bucket for sea water to rinse off the soap, and finish with just enough to de-salt. And we saved up the laundry till we got to land. It never seemed onerous, it was just how it was. We did carry a Power Survivor 35, which had a manual override, so we could have made enough water to keep us alive, even in the event of power failure.

We had a battery switch fail the other day, and suddenly were without power before the sun came up. Andrew Troup started a thread about what to do if you lose power, makes interesting reading. In our case, Jim just installed the spare, and we'll get another...seems like a good spare to carry. What happened with Rebel Heart and the water ingress jeopardizing their electrics can happen in any boat if the ingress goes unnoticed over a period of time. Some people install alarms in their bilges to let them know if water comes in. It is a good idea to leave the switch off on the bilge pump and start it by hand from time to time. Otherwise you may not notice that it's filling more quickly than previously. (Many boats are set up so that the drips from the packing gland where the prop shaft exits the hull, those drips go through limber holes and gather in the bilge, along with condensation drips from the fridge and any other water that's managed to get loose.)

Ann
Ann

ardoin 14-05-2014 17:09

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by boatman61 (Post 1539753)
Broad reaching... preventer...??
Heavy sea's/wind... why not reefed down...??
Squalls no problem.. if hove to the boat will adjust.. okay maybe bouncy for a few minutes.. fore-reaching.. whats the problem.. your miles from land... shut down and take it easy..
Sorry Eric.. I don't get it.. not from what I've read to date.. and at 900 miles off Mexico are you sure your in the ICTZ..
Not a criticism of your decision.. far from it.. you did the right thing as far as I'm concerned with a baby on board..
However your seamanship I do question... the only time I'd rig a preventer is downwind.. no way on a broad reach.
And even on a broad reach in the conditions you describe I'd be reefed to maximum.. but F5-6.. and I do know what the S. Pacific can be like.. you'll roll a lot.. but maybe you should put your A/P on max setting next time you go there..:D

Agree, why use a preventer in the conditions and point of sail described? That could be a serious problem.

downunder 14-05-2014 17:11

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by colemj (Post 1541309)
U36, HC36, P36 - whatever - at least it wasn't a Beneteau or catamaran. Those aren't constructed for offshore blue water work at all.

Mark

:thumb::thumb::thumb: The bluewater threads often leave me shaking my head.

Eric,

You made the right decisions to manage your potentially life threatening situation. respect :thumb::thumb:

Andrew Troup 14-05-2014 17:15

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
I think this thread has reassured us on one point.

The term "Leaky Teaky" was not coined for purely poetic effect.

I'm with those who consider the discussion of the exact nature and cause of the specific leaks on this specific voyage on this particular vessel to be unprofitable and somewhat peripheral.

As for building detailed inferences on generalised or flimsy data,
I'm reminded of the Cairo tour guide who told his clients
"this particular pyramid is 5002 years old"

When asked how he could pin it down with such accuracy, he explained:
"When I started working here the year before last, I was told it was 5000 years old".

Azul 14-05-2014 17:58

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
I was inclined to give Rebel Heart the benefit of the doubt after he lost his home, and I am an ignorant jackass who hasn’t sailed around the world eighteen times and therefore shouldn’t even give an opinion at all, but his recent input (and subtly mocking someone who is just trying to figure out this convoluted tale) has made me think he might be trying to obfuscate (I am using big words as I am a sciolist) the story by providing limited, evasive data points under the guise of the story being too complicated for anything but a book. That opens up a whole new can of worms and has encouraged a higher level of speculation about credibility among the unwashed slobbering masses.

Example of obfuscation: “I could have paid more attention to the helm” which translates to “I was in the salon during a squall with an inappropriate sail plan for the sea state and wind conditions with my jury rigged preventer tied to the deck hardware which induced a knockdown and caused significant damage, a demoralizing deck leak, loss of my solar power after already running out of diesel fuel to run the engine and scared the living crap out of my already tormented wife.”

What was the contingency plan for a large and sudden water ingress, considering you were unable to diagnose and treat a minor but fatiguing deck leak over a several day period on a wooden deck you were intimately familiar with? Would that cabin wall mounted Epirb have made it into the ditch bag? Was there a life raft to put the kids and ditch bag into? Had you tested the Epirb before leaving (there is a simple procedure for that.) By regulation, that Epirb would be inadequate for a low income commercial fisherman to use on his small fishing vessel near shore as it is not a more expensive self-deploying model.

Taking small kids far offshore is serious business, if not outright "Candide thinking" especially for someone who isn't prepared to the absolute highest standards even with budget constraints. It is always better to be on the dock continuing to plan and wishing you were out there than being out there and wishing you were back on the dock.

Pelagic 14-05-2014 18:00

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
I think the one lesson RH's unfortunate experience teaches similar cruising families is to consider the necessary back up crew on your families first long ocean passage.

What if it had been Eric who was incapacitated as the medical patient while the boat suffered the same problems?

Crew attrition and capabilities are part of ocean passage planning, when you make your first long crossing.

I think Eric put a lot of unnecessary pressure on himself and Charlene, by not taking along another strong pair of hands.

Andrew Troup 14-05-2014 18:19

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
Anyone who has been subjected to having their words and actions dissected and pored over by a single prosecutor in front of a roomful of people will still probably struggle to imagine what that might feel like when dozens do so simultaneously on an international forum. We have not been appointed or mandated to stand in judgement here.

I hope this process is working for someone, somewhere, because it's certainly not working for me.

boatman61 14-05-2014 18:29

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Troup (Post 1541441)
Anyone who has been subjected to having their words and actions dissected and pored over by a single prosecutor in front of a roomful of people will still probably struggle to imagine what that might feel like when dozens do so simultaneously on an international forum. We have not been appointed or mandated to stand in judgement here.

I hope this process is working for someone, somewhere, because it's certainly not working for me.

Okay... I'll shut up and go away..:thumb:

SV THIRD DAY 14-05-2014 18:29

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
....and so it begins....

You expect it from the general public, but from our own family of cruiser...really?

Palarran 14-05-2014 18:36

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkJ (Post 1541320)
Can you draw where the damage was from this incident, please? It might help us stay off some wild goose chase :)

I doubt it. But why do you guy's care anyways. The situation was and is pretty clear.

smackdaddy 14-05-2014 18:41

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
Okay - looking into it a bit more, the rot thing seems to be a primary culprit in the failure of the boat. From 2008:

Rebel Heart - Eric's Blog - Scraping cetol off the decks is fun funĀ*fun

Quote:

c) Epoxy this spongy piece of plywood that the water got too. It's right above my head where I sleep, so I can quickly judge the success of this project the next time it rains at night.
https://rebelheart.squarespace.com/st...=1220801800172

and...

Quote:

I got the deck sanded last night, and managed to pull one of my teak boards up. I put down some Teak Deck Systems (one part) just to get used to the stuff. Instead of taking back all the caulking everywhere I'm going to go after the problem caulking sections first. The downside is that there will be joins between the new rubber and the old rubber, and those might not be completely water tight. But, that's still a hell of a lot better than the huge cracks I currently have. Better to have a couple pin holes here and there than the monster sized 5' cracks I've got on the starboard.
Then in 2010...

Rebel Heart - Eric's Blog - working on the teak decks, coming fullĀ*circle

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However this particular iteration is special because it marks the gutting of my first repair which was probably two years ago. The job I did was sloppy, stupid, and far too time consuming for the mediocre benefit it provided.

I've seen the consequences of shotty workmanship, and I appreciate my decks for the beautiful composite system that they are.

So it's with a certain joy and rewarding feeling that I'm able to circle back to my horrible deck seams, cut out a bunch of junk, pull some boards, and do things properly. The contrast between where I was and where I am is something that makes me smile as I continue my ritual of keeping the water out.
Between this stuff, termites and rot in the mast, etc. - I seriously feel sorry for the guy. Seems there was A LOT of rot on this boat. Could anything other than a complete re-decking (and more) have made this thing ready for a big offshore passage?

Now I'm even more interested in where the preventer was secured. I'll keep looking.

Azul 14-05-2014 18:43

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
Well, many of us had hoped the one lesson RH learned was a little humility given the thread he himself ironically started mocking a crew for abandoning a perfectly good boat due to exhaustion and bad weather. It is pretty clear he hasn't gotten that message with comments like "I don't think I could have done anything different" and "some people need a map to know where the starboard quarter is." I don't get why people are defending him at this point so ardently. But then, I don't like to take toddlers to a restaurant much less trapping myself in a sailboat with them for weeks on end.

My advice in front of this courtroom of somewhat antagonized interviewers is for Eric to quit blowing smoke up our butts about what really happened or quit giving disinformation altogether. Losing credibility means the actual severity of the child's illness comes into question given the almost impossible temporal concordance with the knockdowns. Physical and mental exhaustion can make people exaggerate or distort their perceptions.

It wasn't a foregone conclusion this endeavor had to end this way, there were many, many things that could have been done differently. And there were many other things that could have happened that would have been worse. Like your boat sinking out from under you and one of your toddlers floating off into a breaking sea.

Andrew, I hope you have decided that water falling off a breaking wave didn't rip out through-bolted deck hardware. Otherwise, surfers all over the planet would be disabled by the thousands on a daily basis.

Cheechako 14-05-2014 18:43

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Troup (Post 1541441)
Anyone who has been subjected to having their words and actions dissected and pored over by a single prosecutor in front of a roomful of people will still probably struggle to imagine what that might feel like when dozens do so simultaneously on an international forum. We have not been appointed or mandated to stand in judgement here.

I hope this process is working for someone, somewhere, because it's certainly not working for me.

:thumb:

SaltyMonkey 14-05-2014 18:45

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Troup (Post 1541441)

I hope this process is working for someone, somewhere, because it's certainly not working for me.

+1 :thumb:

oldragbaggers 14-05-2014 18:46

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
Eric and Charlotte really created their own celebrity status. Between their blog and their Facebook, and Eric's extremely prolific forum postings, they put their life out there, down to the most intimate details, for people to observe and ultimately to judge. It's sort of like a celebrity who gets himself an agent and goes on every talk show, appears on all the magazine covers, romances the reporters on the red carpet, and then cries foul when people want to pry into their personal lives.

Everyone who has been following his story for awhile feels like they know Eric, like they've been personally invited into his life, to participate in his conversations and be a part of his inner circle. So now, when the most significant conversation of all is taking place is it any wonder that everyone wants a seat at the table.

Palarran 14-05-2014 18:48

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Azul (Post 1541429)
Taking small kids far offshore is serious business, if not outright "Candide thinking" especially for someone who isn't prepared to the absolute highest standards even with budget constraints. It is always better to be on the dock continuing to plan and wishing you were out there than being out there and wishing you were back on the dock.

Ok, this gets my vote for best post on this tread. Indisputable fact

cheoah 14-05-2014 18:51

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
Fer real. Lets not pat this guy on the head, he's a big boy, and there is plenty to learn here for plenty of people. I'm unsure why some people are so sensitive about dissecting this, just like Eric has done himself in the past. Because it is a useful exercise.

I think it was Europa who's missive stated there was nothing left to learn here, that it was solely a decision made because of the sick child. I't is way more complicated than that, and worthy of discussion, even if he made the right decision in the end, given the set of circumstances he faced, whether natural, or as a result of his own vessel prep and management as a skipper.

This guy is tough, he's been on the other side of this more than once, just let it play out. Issues about boat construction, preventers, crew care and repair attempts are all very interesting. There is a pretty good body of "data", with thousands of prior posts and the blog, and for those with more investigative personalities, and natural skeptics, the information is compeling. It is true that the less info that is available, the more people want it. This isn't a cut and dry case about a sick chlld. It is a cascade starting days, months and years prior potentially. Why is that hurtful to look into that as a learning opportunity? Are we afraid that we might find out he is human, and blew it on this and that? I'd be stewing on every decision I made in a situation like this, and actively looking for what I may have screwed up. I totally get that Eric doesn't want to get into that right now. There could be some very important reasons for that. Still though, facts are intoxicating, the more the better at 21:50 :thumb:


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